[QA] Why do you feel you have to defend Pandas all the time...?

Discussion in 'Modern Chinese Coins & Medallions' started by yennus, Oct 8, 2011.

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  1. Bullion Baron

    Bullion Baron Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    That is rubbish. If you read a little deeper I have covered some numismatic coins releases (specifically Perth Mint releases) as well as discussed property, mining shares and other subjects.

    The reality is that I would speculate on more numismatics if I could buy them in bulk, but researching and buying a single Panda for $500 in the hope I could sell it for $700 in 12 months is of little benefit to me. I'd rather find a stock, bulk coin (/bullion) purchase or other venture that I could put $10,000 into and make it worth my while.
     
  2. hiho

    hiho Active Member Silver Stacker

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    Why dont you read some of his blog before you cast dispersions, his blog is varied and informative on many levels PM, shares and Real estate.
     
  3. 940palmtx

    940palmtx New Member

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    In other words, you find buying pure bullion to be a better investment for your current business model.
    Does that mean what's good for the goose is good for the gander?
    Or is it in the realm of possibility that numismatics may fit another's business model or investment strategy better than pure bullion?
     
  4. Bullion Baron

    Bullion Baron Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    If a buyer gets enjoyment from the numismatic coins they buy, then maybe it makes up for the under performance they have seen vs bullion :lol:

    Maybe there are a few numismatic collectors that pick their coins well enough that they outperform bullion or perhaps they buy bullion coins with the hope they obtain a numismatic premium... not saying there isn't ways to do well via numismatics, I just think bullion is the the less speculative way to go and has shown better gains on average than the numismatics market.

    I think this thread has gone a little off track :eek:
     
  5. fishball

    fishball New Member Silver Stacker

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    The PCGS3000 is a pretty poor list to be honest so I wouldn't be basing numismatic performance on that index much like I won't use PPI for my panda performance overall. The PCGS3000 does not even contain a single modern Chinese coin, so it's as useless as the S&P500 in determining the modern Chinese numismatic coin market.

    Case in point, I bought a 1991 1/4oz Gold Panda 2-3 months ago for $400 and it is now worth over $700, from my POV it has outperformed spot bullion.

    It is entirely possible to outperform both the PCGS3000 and bullion but it requires research, of which I am sure you are no stranger to.

    Of course numismatic is mostly speculative, which is why nobody should purely buy Pandas and hope for early retirement but I would also say buying purely Silver bullion hoping for $300/oz greatly restricts your options as well. Numismatics rewards those who do their research properly, but it is a double-edged sword.

    It's really hard to say which has made more gains on average because as we both know, there isn't really a metric to measure 'numismatic'. There is no real index as numismatic portfolios are highly customized and unique in general. Same applies to bullion, if you bought Lunar dragons in 2000 you would've performed extremely well.

    TL;DR summary: Different strategies for bullion and numismatic stacking, both are equally valid and it's understandable you can't justify spending $500 on 1oz of Silver. In fact, neither can I but it doesn't mean it's overvalued. My utility curve is just ... not there ;)
     
  6. 940palmtx

    940palmtx New Member

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    Yes again you make a good point. We've turned a why do people get defensive about pandas? post into a debate on the advantages/disadvantages over pure bullion investment vs numismatics.

    I think people get defensive because so many people come on here trying to insinuate they've made bad decisions because bullion will buy an equal amount of SHTF bread or that bullion prices have exceed numismatics over a decade and therefore it's all but guaranteed they will continue to out perform numis and buying anything but pure bullion is pure folly. At least that's why I think people get defensive.
     
  7. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I believe we have reached an impasse. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

    If you are of the view that stacking bricks and rounds is a good idea, go do that.

    But it is very rude, to come into the Panda Forum, without the knowledge, depth, experience or understanding that others in here have about the field of Pandas (like PandaCollector, Tamo42, 940palmtx, and comeaux) and start challenging them.

    The Panda Forum is for people wanting to learn about Pandas, and how they can profit from it.

    If you are not here to learn about Pandas, then leave.

    If you think you have a better Index than PandaCollector or Tamo42, go write about it somewhere else (unless it includes Pandas).
    If you think you have made more money by trading bullion, fantastic, go write about it somewhere else.

    If you have a personal issue with me, message me.

    The Panda Forum is for people wanting to learn about Pandas, and how they can profit from it.

    If you are not here to learn about Pandas, then leave.
     
  8. Bullion Baron

    Bullion Baron Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I don't understand why you are being so bossy and controlling.

    If this subforum is only here for discussion about how Panda prices only go up then perhaps some forum rules to that effect are in order.

    IMO there is room for balanced discussion.
     
  9. Bart

    Bart New Member

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    Hahaha gee, Yennus. why do you have too keep defending Pandas??? what with all the constructive criticism, and questions you get asked ... I don't get it.
    I bet you wish you were just another Perth Mint collector now :D


    I was going to leave this alone, but wtf. For a start I'm just a pleb, and I realised what yennus meant with his percentages. and I didn't give a second thought to his motives because what he was saying seems pretty obvoius. All the info is out there, calculators are allowed if needed :p


    Some of the posts in this thread make it look like the pandaphiles have burst in the door catching everyone on the hop. I would obviously expect some resistence from the status quo, but a lot of them must be really embarrassed as well that they didn't see it coming too.

    Also, some may see Pandas as glorified bullion coins. But if we're talking numis, let's put it in perspective ...like Australian Decimal coins for example. The fundamentals are pretty much imagined and non-existent , but they sell, and keep selling, and no-one being called to account for that.

    For eg..... 57,000 x 2003 Vietnam $1 was issued @ $7.50. about 2 years later I was selling this dollar coin for over $40. Now it gets about $10....or 58, 500 x 2006 Commonwealth Games $1. issued @ $2.75 and is instantly sold out and offered on the secondary market for $10.... what about that 2000 Victoria Cross $1? almost 100,000 coins issued to a population of 20 million people. issued for just $5 ea .. Now this $1 coin is somehow worth $$hundreds.
    And the Mobile Press $1 at the shows. There are generally <10,000 ea. of these, but now sell for just a few dollars ea? They got nice prices when the hype was on.
    You get the picture ..

    So, if this is all just hype-building, yennus is being accused of the exact same thing that Aussie coin dealers actually did with the decimal coins over the past 10 years. That is, untill the R.A.M started to issue multiple new releases to stop the manipulation. The dealers manpulated supply wherever they could, and sold the coins at a great premium. Good business, but the prices justified by the bible (McDonalds Australian Coin and Banknote Guide) were mostly ridiculous and unsustainable. some still are. And again, who gets called to account for that?

    Not saying this is indicative of Australian numismatics overall, just an example ..

    Honestly, in the past Pandas were treated as a joke of a coin in Aus. Never, once, in 15 years of collecting, has a Panda recommended to me by an Aussie coin dealer or expert. I'd be happy to hear of any dealers actively buying and pimping pandas in Australia 5-10 years ago, and hear of their experience, though I doubt it. But they might actually be smarter than I give them credit for, and I am fully prepared to cop the "told ya so's .." if Pandas tank. I might lose a couple of grand on them, but then sure to make it up elsewhere I s'pose ..

    It's just unfortunate yennus has been left with this kind of baggage and is now in the firing line along with some of the new foreign members. Without sounding too gay, I think we should just appreciate their efforts, and be thankfull they have come here to share their passion and their knowledge with us. Build bridges and stuff like GP said ..
     
  10. Lovey80

    Lovey80 Well-Known Member

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    Yennus, as a very happy Panda customer of yours I think your last statement is a little harsh. If other Silver enthusiasts want to make a point that, in their honest opinion, certain levels of hype put on pandas by yourself, fish ball and others is possibly not warranting the price explosion on Pandas, then they certainly have a right to voice that opinion. That way other newer members can do their own due diligence on wether a coin is at a fair value or not.

    If this were not the case, we could end up with a situation where for example,

    You could put up a sale thread quoting "small limited mintages" etc and list over inflated eBay sales of the same product, then have the vested interests of Fishball, 940palmtx and others jumping in with "Bargain" and similar hype pumping posts and now that the Panda moderator has "laid down the law" and no one has the right to question said motives, only to see new member over pay for numismatic prices on bullion coins.

    So while I intend to buy Pandas and will gladly be a customer of yours and other Panda fanatics, please don't think you have the right to corner the Panda market and begin dictating prices without other numismatic experts on this forum pulling you up on it.

    It is bad forum etiquette to question a seller, I think it should also be looked at the same of vested interests to go pumping up other buyers threads.
     
  11. fishball

    fishball New Member Silver Stacker

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    Yennus is far too tiny to corner the Panda market, I don't even know where to begin with a statement like that tbh.
     
  12. Lovey80

    Lovey80 Well-Known Member

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    Fish ball, please get me right that I am not making such accusations. I am just trying to get a fair playing field so we don't have a situation where the Panda Nazi moderator thinks he has a right to tell numismatic experts to go play somewhere else so he can run a sub forum free of negative Panda setiment.

    It's just not going to happen, not with these eagle eyes around here (of which I am far from being one of them).

    Cheers

    Chris
     
  13. jpanggy

    jpanggy New Member

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    hmmm, time to walk away a bit ppl? getting really heated up and will end badly.
     
  14. fishball

    fishball New Member Silver Stacker

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    I agree people are entitled to their opinions and voices but seriously this is turning into a shit slinging festival more than a Panda discussion.

    I have replied in a polite (much more than in RE forum) manner to almost all questions posed by BB and THUCY and I welcome more questions because I am 100% sure of what I am doing and would gladly share my train of thought with people who are interested.

    However, I am not interested in seeing these personal attacks on yennus or accusations of 'hyping' up Pandas to make a quick buck.

    If people have good questions to ask, I and others would gladly try and answer. Discussion is healthy but personal attacks are unwarranted and counter productive.

    Anyway as jpanggy said, take a chill pill guys.

    I'm going to go out for dinner, hopefully we'll be cool when I'm back ;)
     
  15. Bart

    Bart New Member

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    Damn ..only 4 pages until someone said Nazi :(

    I think this thread might be finished already unfortunately..
     
  16. Lovey80

    Lovey80 Well-Known Member

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    If I made anything personal I unreservedly appologise, that was not my intention. While there has been some noted hyping in the Panda forum from members at a brisbane stacker meets. I am not even bothered by that. As far as I am concerned fill ya boots. But you can't have it both ways and expect learnered members to sit back and watch it happen.
     
  17. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    1. I don't have a right to corner the Panda market. Indeed, it is my pleasure when I see people selling and trading Pandas in the Panda Forum.
    2. I'm not in a position to dictate prices, the free market does that.
    3. If there is a bargain, I don't see why a fellow collector shouldn't be allowed to comment, when this is permissible and frequently done by others.
    4. The Panda market is far too big for even Fishball and I to form a cartel.
    5. It is a pleasure to support other people selling Pandas. I am happy when others are selling Pandas.
    6. The vested interest that I have is to see Pandas being promoted. I'm a collector, it is my pleasure to share my pleasure.
    7. As I said before, if you have a personal problem with me, message me.
     
  18. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Wow... I've been labelled the Panda Nazi moderator.
     
  19. 940palmtx

    940palmtx New Member

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    How bout when ya come across one ya point 'em out, eh mate?
    And as far as feigning concern for inexperienced forum members being lured into paying too much for pandas because of a conspiracy to inflate prices by yennus and his cabal of panda fiends...do us all a favor and go help old ladies cross the street if ya really want to help society.
    Calling respected honorable people rip-off artists ain't doin shite mate, ya feel me brah?
     
  20. hiho

    hiho Active Member Silver Stacker

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    wow yennus you let yourself down there, you have access to a panda forum where you can buy and sell pandas ad lib, you are obviously using the forum to promote your business, yet you have the ordacity to tell us not to participate?
     
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