[QA] Why do you feel you have to defend Pandas all the time...?

Discussion in 'Modern Chinese Coins & Medallions' started by yennus, Oct 8, 2011.

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  1. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    You didn't ask a question.

    If you understand, then you should adhere to the golden rule: Do unto others as you would like them do unto you.
     
  2. hem9

    hem9 Active Member Silver Stacker

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    I understand where thucy is coming from as any bullion coins being sold for x2 or x3 spot in the hope of future increases over melt value feels like every unreasonable.investment ( well above intrinsic value) ever made - passing the "investment" to the greater fool
     
  3. El Bullion

    El Bullion New Member Silver Stacker

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    For whatever it is worth, and before this discussion blows up further, I have to say that I've bought pandas from Apmex and Talisman before pandas even got sold here on SS. I've been buying from select sellers on ebay too. From what I've seen, about 75% of Yennus' pandas are somewhat cheaper than those offered online, and he has the advantage of being based in Australia (not to mention his careful packaging). Hence, I buy from Yennus whenever his prices are competitive. I haven't met him in person, so we don't owe each other anything. However, I suspect that like a few other people here, I continue to buy from other sources online when their prices are better. I pretty much know what the current prices in China, Germany, and the U.S. are because I'm constantly on the lookout. The panda pricepedia also helps. Pandas are expensive everywhere full stop. Yennus may seem to be too passionate about pandas, but he's not out to fool anybody. If panda prices fall tomorrow, I'm pretty sure he'll be among those who will lose as he is most likely stacking them as well.

    I think a more interesting discussion is whether certifying/grading/slabbing what are otherwise bullion or semi-numismatic coins are truly worth it. The premiums are a lot more than the raw coins. I personally am not convinced yet. Part of me thinks that it is just another way for dealers (especially in the U.S.) to make a good spread on coins in a highly competitive market (I mean, cmon, anyone can buy/sell coins these days without having to invest in a physical store). Another part of me likes the idea of conserving truly good examples of coins and having the ability to ensure their authenticity (it's the availability of fake slabs that kind of ruined it for me) and then keeping them for a long time. I'm not going crazy and buying up graded coins, but I am keeping an open mind. If others choose to do it, either they know something I don't and will profit from it, or they're taking a risk...but it's their risk to take.
     
  4. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    What appears to Thucy as an unreasonable investment has performed far better than standard bullion coins since 1980.

    Examples provided:
    People do pay 100% and more over spot, because Pandas have been doing better than mere spot performance.

    In 2007, the standard 2000 Frosted Panda BU was valued at 880RMB (approx. $146). Today it is valued at over $500 (even more for NGC coins). Growth of 3.42 times.
    In 2007, the standard ASE was about $18. Today it is valued about $39. Growth of 2.16 times.
    So yes, the expensive coins have also appreciated faster than spot and standard bullion.

    Here's a 2000 Mirror comparison.
    A meager $10,000 investment 11 years ago if placed in ASEs ($6.50) would only be worth approx. $60,000 today ($38.93).
    A meager $10,000 investment 11 years ago if placed in Mirrored Pandas ($10) would now be worth over $1,500,000 (>$1500)

    If Thucy has a better investment strategy, let him enlighten us all.
     
  5. hem9

    hem9 Active Member Silver Stacker

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    I understand what you are saying too and good job on the facts but i guess the biggest barrier to me buying big is the fake issue so basically if its not buying from Yennus its nothing as all. Other potential stackers dont have a.source like Yennus so after buying a fake, they might get permanently turned away from pandas
     
  6. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Thanks Hem9.

    I take it as a compliment when you say "if its not buying from Yennus its nothing as all". That's nice, but there is a whole list of recommended people (in Australia) that people can buy Pandas from.

    http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-11747-safe-people-to-buy-pandas-from.html

    Edlin's Auction had some Pandas today I heard. Downies has some Pandas. KJC has some Pandas people can order from also.

    Also, even before the Panda Forum was present, people were stacking Pandas in Australia. I've had the pleasure of meeting one of them in Melbourne.

    For those that seek good, usually find it :)

    For those that seek trouble, usually find that too :)
     
  7. Bullion Baron

    Bullion Baron Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Genuine question, I can buy 2011 1oz Silver Pandas for $34.40 (8% premium to spot) from where currently?
     
  8. fishball

    fishball New Member Silver Stacker

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    I don't think yennus meant 7-8% premium over spot but to other coins such as Perth Mint's Koalas or ASEs.

    Currently on Perth Mint's site if you buy Koalas (1oz):
    500 or more AUD 39.38 each

    Currently if you buy a Monster Box (600oz) of Pandas from Suissegold.ch:
    600oz : 16 771.13 Euros = 22 954.0272 Australian dollars (via Google FX calculator)
    This equates to AUD 38.256 each

    Currently if you buy a Monster Box (500oz) of Philharmonics from Suissegold.ch:
    500oz : 12 694.41 Euros = 17 374.3708 Australian dollars
    This equates to AUD 34.7487416 each

    Still a 20% premium over spot but we both know that there are fabrication costs and other costs associated with making 1oz coins, even if Chinese labor is cheap ;)

    And edited to add philharmonic monster box for reference.

    Capsulated coins are so damn overpriced :p
     
  9. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    The 7-8% is in relation to ASEs. You can purchase Pandas usually at a 7-8% premium to ASEs. Yes, you can find this fact out at many places. KJC is a Sydney source.
     
  10. goldpelican

    goldpelican Administrator Staff Member

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    I think many people will read that 7-8% as being over spot, which is what percentage premium means on every other bullion item out there - I think the practice of stating premiums as a percentage over the retail prices of other bullion items should be discouraged.

    If premiums are going to be quoted as a percentage, it should be over spot, not over another price.

    Otherwise we could talk about buying PAMP 1kg bars at "0.2%" premiums, because they're 0.2% dearer than a Perth Mint kilo bar etc.
     
  11. THUCYDIDES79

    THUCYDIDES79 New Member Silver Stacker

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    1. I didnt ask questions in some of the other comments - yet you answered them.

    2. Thanks for invoking the Golden Rule - when you read a post of mine, where i am selling something, or standing to benefit something in the future and where
    i am making lavish assumptions of the future than BE MY GUEST AND BE THE FIRST TO MAKE A POST IN MY THREAD AND BRING THE AWARENESS OF THAT TO THE AVERAGE JOE AND YOUR
    FELLOW SILVERSTACKER FORUM MEMBER.

    AND above challenge is an open challenge to ANY member of our forum any time day or night, high spot or low spot.

    I dont have problems with some Pandas selling 7-8% premium over the cost of the boring ASE ( i personally dont like the ASE image myself ) and infact i would condone the purchase of those pandas at that cost.

    Do you remember the 10 Dirham coin ? The one that comes as a 'dividend' to those who invested money in the Royal Silver Company.

    The image on that coin is dear to me due to religious reasons - but since it costs $80 - i advised or mentioned that it shouldnt be bought due to the high cost.

    - - -

    Some of the comments that i have made regards the Pandas can be easily construed as being directed at you yennus.
    Once again, that is only a derivative of my intention in my comments made.

    I have been a member on the forum for a lil over a year, and have made many posts - and i am not making money out of this membership, infact i have a lot more important things to do rather
    than sit here and do my bit and write about silver, world, coins and other stuff i have written about - yet i still do.

    My central message to the forum and the membership is to save their financial a..s and put the little money that they have into SENSIBLE silver coins / bars.
    It just happened that the product that you derive financial benefit has been identified by myself as something that could potentially rise in value in the future, BUT SINCE ITS OVER SPOT BY MORE THAN
    IT SHOULD THAN IT IS ALSO EXPOSED TO THE RISK OF FALLING IN VALUE.

    When one buys a 1 oz silver buffalo or the 1 oz Maple or some other similar 'NO FUTURE/ LOW FUTURE' coins than the only risk that they are taking on is the FALL IN SPOT SILVER PRICE - and that my friend
    is a risk that almost the entire forum has made willingly and does every week.
     
  12. fishball

    fishball New Member Silver Stacker

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    THUCY calls it like he sees it, ;)

    Respect.

    Now...who wants some popcorn

    [​IMG]
     
  13. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    You make the claim that you want to save their financial a..s, yet up to now, the figures clearly show that you have failed to produce a better outcome than Pandas. You may be well intentioned, but your advice of Maples and Buffaloes has proven no better than a savings account with interest that keeps up with inflation.

    You cannot deny the fact, that if people had invested their money in Pandas instead of ASEs/Maples/Buffaloes anytime in the last 20years, their returns would have been much better. This has been demonstrated. I have demonstrated this via examples. Comeaux has illustrated this via his examples also.

    Pandas may not be sensible coins in the future (nobody knows the future), but since 1980, they have outperformed the ASE/Maple/Buffalo.

    Show me where in the last 20 years your recommendation of Buffaloes and Maples have outperformed Pandas. I'm keen to see the stats.

    If I derive financial benefit from Pandas does that prevent the person I sell to from deriving financial benefit also? As El Bullion has pointed out, many of my prices are much better than other places.

    Do I prevent other dealers or silverstacker members from selling/trading in the Panda Forum? It is an open forum for Panda Fans around the world.

    You are very good at making assertions with no supporting evidence. What is your evidence that Pandas are over spot "more than it should"?

    Show me your stats, your figures. What are your predictions? It's easy to be critical. Give me some stats, figures and charts of when your Buffaloes and Maples will overtake the Pandas.

    I've done my homework, as have many other Panda investors, and we have come to the conclusion that Pandas are undervalued! I've provided stats and figures to backup my case, where are yours?

    When someone buys a Panda, be it a rare one, or a bullion one, they too know the risks. No buyer, no profit. But for the last 20years and more, there have been Panda buyers, and that pool of Panda buyers doesn't seem to be shrinking, only growing. I've discussed the domestic demand for buyers with population stats on other posts. Where are your stats of the diminishing pool of Panda buyers?

    Who knows? Maybe you're right, and in the future, all Pandas will crash to their metal values. But until that day, Pandas have consistently outperformed your recommendation of Maples and Buffaloes.

    Show me your stats, figures and charts of when your recommendation of Maples and Buffaloes will outperform Pandas.

    Enlighten us all since you know so much about Pandas already.
     
  14. comeaux

    comeaux New Member Silver Stacker

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    After waking up this morning and because of the time difference I now see a flurry of posts on this topic which gotten a little insane. After reading all of the posts, it became even much more apparent to me that the collecting of numismatics in Australia is light years behind countries like the US, China, Germany and many others it's not a knock on the Aussies it just appears to be the case. Aussies appear to be more inclined to collect bullion which is fine.

    I think the main point that is getting overlooked here is that Chinese Panda coins are bought and sold as highly numismatic coins, even more so when they are professionally graded.

    Yes those people who state that pandas are bought and sold at prices exponentially higher than spot are correct. They are not common bullion coins. They obviously cannot be compared to ASE's, Maples, etc, as they have been minted in extremely low numbers, and there are very many BU & "proof" varieties in silver, gold, platinum & palladium which makes them highly sought by collectors. Whether you believe it or not, Chinese Pandas are a very highly sought numismatic and auction prices substantiate that. As I have stated before, those who do not believe this simply need to spend about 5 minutes to research auction prices.

    Another issue is people attempt to equate "Low Mintage" with "Value" and this is not true. A coin can have very low mintage but if it is not also popular such as many modern coins today then it is basically worthless as there is nobody there to buy it. Chinese pandas not only have extremely low mintages in all forms of precious metals, but they also attract many collectors because of their beauty and many varieties. Combine all of this with a very large collector base of people such as billions of Chinese and 100's of thousands Americans & Europeans and there you have what it takes to support demand at high prices. Low mintage, popularity & rarity as well as many collectors it is the facts.

    So I have asked for someone to give me an example of ONE Australian lunar coin or any modern Australian coin that has maintained value with any comparative year panda and there is NONE. The only coin that keeps the thrown up is THE RED BACK SPIDER Its almost becoming a battle cry "hey we have the red back spider" hey don't feel bad we have crappy coins here in the US as well.

    I came to this forum to share in my interest in panda coins with fellow collectors, I have no business interest at all. I have posted a few of my over 300 graded gold & silver pandas here to share with members only for educational purposes, I offered to ship at ZERO cost with my own personal money without payment as a gesture of good will on an order of a few simple graded pandas. I do not own a coin business and there is no motive other than my enjoyment of the collection I have amassed. So what is so hard to understand about that? Does it have to necessarily be tied to a "business' as the conjecture continually arises?

    I will not even respond to another post in this thread and yes I do find it completely absurd for people who do not want to collect pandas, loathe their existence to even post in this thread that is my opinion so I don't really care what reasons are given for trolls to come into this forum to cause drama. I guess it's a different culture here or possibly bad pills.

    One thing I find comical is for alleged "experts" and other members who come into this forum with a moniker attached to their name such as "administrator", "site sponser" or "super member +++++" or other fancy bullshit and throw around their sarcasm, opinions and strong arm tactics like they are someone important because of this "title" it kind of made me laugh as I pictured these people like that little old man in the "Wizard of Oz" behind the curtain who was nothing more than a little old frail man trying to intimidate people with words. It's appalling actually.

    So from this point forward I will continue to enjoy this forum and post here with the very nice Australian members I have met, those who have legitimate questions and concerns, I will amiably help wherever I can. Those who are here to stir up trouble with wild assertions and fancy names I will ignore.
    Since this site does not yet have an "ignore" feature yet, I'll just use the manual technique for now.:D

    As I have stated before, collecting graded silver, gold & platinum pandas is a "HOBBY" for me, it is not my business or my life. I have a beautiful family and life that consumes my every minute and Chinese Pandas are but a miniscule, infinitesimal portion of that so I will not waste any more time attempting to explain why I like my hobby.

    I honestly feel sorry for the newbies here on this forum just getting started into numismatics they do have several knowledgeable people to help them on this forum but I also see just as many people who are single minded, old timers who are uniformed.


    Ok guys take it away !!! Come on in here with your big, powerful titles and beat me up with your computer keyboards !!! I'm smart enough to know that it's just unhappy, lonely old men sitting at their computer "Behind the curtain" and when you finish berating me you can end it with "The Great Oz Has Spoken" pffftttt I'm not impressed at all.

    What a f(k%n train wreck :D
     
  15. 940palmtx

    940palmtx New Member

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    If you'll read the comment your remarking on you'll see the poster welcomes an "attack" on a statement, but not against a person.
    That means that asking the rhetorical question "Is it necessary for a person to be a Panda collector/enthusiast, to post on this thread?"
    is completely and utterly irrelevant to the conversation here. Some people just want to say tomAto when other say tomAUto. Which is fine, but insulting someone for their opinion is indeed trollish, immature and merely draws attention to the fact that no relevant counter-information can be provided by the poster.
     
  16. 940palmtx

    940palmtx New Member

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  17. 940palmtx

    940palmtx New Member

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    I just bought an Ox 50 bucks and I can get a mouse for 60.
    There are no bullion coins that have appreciated close to Pandas. I'm sorry, but it is what it is. I collect lunars and RAM Roos because I like them. If I were buying silver for the sole reason of investment, I would buy pure bullion, like bars and generic rounds, never ASEs and Pandas. The percentage? Mmm? Maybe about 70/30 bullion/pandas. I'm a fairly conservative investor, I can see where more aggressive, younger investors might allocate a higher percentage to pandas or even 100%
    No one can factually dispute the rise in value Pandas have experienced all they can really do is give opinions as to why they believe Pandas will stop rising. Like Lucy did, he said they are already valuable so they have no room to appreciate further to which I replied that I didn't believe that to be so. Both of us gave opinions, but facts are that Pandas have risen in value, greater than any the bullion coin, it's opinion as to where they go from here.
     
  18. tamo42

    tamo42 New Member

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    comeaux is right. Thucydides just doesn't understand how numismatic coins are different than bullion coins. And that's OK. It took badon at LBC about 2 years to convince me of the difference.
     
  19. lucky luke

    lucky luke Active Member Silver Stacker

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    I will stay on topic and not respond to insult, implied or otherwise. Your post is given the consideration it is worth, and I respond accordingly...........................................
     
  20. bennybbc

    bennybbc Member Silver Stacker

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    I can swap you my $60 mouse for your $50 ox
     
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