[QA] Why do you feel you have to defend Pandas all the time...?

I have no problem with Pandas I have heaps, the problem I have is the continual down ramping of ASEs, its not a fair comparison. Why dont you compare Australian Lunar Coins for instance?

 

No ignore button yet....I think theres a site update coming soon with it though.

 

Is it necessary for a person to be a Panda collector/enthusiast, to post on this thread? If so, then it is synonymous with lemmings all saying the same thing as they rush to the cliff.

Surely on a silver stackers forum, objectivity allows for the offering of opinions FOR and AGAINST stacking/collecting silver in its many varied forms (including but not exclusively panda coins)?

There are some individuals who have an interest in positively commenting on their own particular area of interest ie some like gold, some like silver, some like coins, others like rounds or bars, some fractionals, others kilos, some numismatic, others "pure" bullion etc etc Others will collect anything.

I acknowledge there are some people who have a particular fondness for Pandas, some much more so than others (I add that I have a few thousand of the more common and recent panda's so I am not "anti-panda"). There are also people who may have a business focus on pandas, and as such may have a vested intererest in re-enforcing the value of pandas as an investments while at the same time challenging the opinions of others who don't see pandas as being such a sought after item. The question remains, does one have to be "pro-panda" to have an equally valid opinion on the fors and againsts of collecting panda's as an investment (whether on this thread, forum, website or anywhere else)?

 

Those who hold ASEs can only realise gains if SILVER goes up in price.
Its a bet on SILVER and not on mintages.

Relative to the average stacker than maybe an expert on numismatics.

but definitely not an expert absolutely speaking.

By the way, loved the Kramer laughing bit no really.


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Only cash cows are protected the way some of you guys are protecting Pandas.

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Regards the comparison of Pandas with ASEs or even Lunars or whatever, thats not the point i am trying to make.

I have seen people pay 100% and a lot more over spot for pandas and the sellers speak about even larger gains in the
future.

Its pathetic, every panda that is bought needs to be scrutinised wether its a fake or not PLUS you pay a lot over spot for them. I dont understand why one would be exposing themselves to so many risks.

Dubai real estate had some great facts going for it too. DIDNT IT ?!

And when you sell pandas and when you list it for $100 per 1 oz and than you list 10 different points on why its such a
great investment - you do it so THAT YOU JUSTIFY THE HIGH PRICE THAT THE BUYER PAYS TODAY -

Its 2011 and the people have been bitten every possible way - and the biting is always done it the same manner.

 

@ lucky one term caught my attention :"pro-panda" it made me think of propaganda. Coincidence maybe

 

THUCY you may know that numismatics are not always about the metal value, such as the 1930 penny among others. For me, I don't see myself buying a 27 gram 1985 panda for $3700 but I can definitely see myself buying a 1987 1/4oz Gold Panda for $500. I feel more comfortable in knowing that I have a backup of melt value in case I am wrong about Panda potential.

As for fakes, well yeah I guess you have to check if it is a fake every time you buy but then it's the same for the 1930 penny or other numismatics.

As for exposing oneself to risk, at the end of the day it comes down to the degree of risk aversion of the buyer

 

I agree with thucy in most of his points - my only problem w pandas is if I dont buy it from Yennus, i basically dont buy it at all. even on ebay I have seen some pandas going for a good price, but i am too scared of fakes which i am not with other coins such as Lunars.

 

No offense to Aussies but it does appear from what the experts here in this forum convey that acquiring high quality, authentic pandas in Australia may be a problem. I can understand the hesitation for some of those people interested in them. Maybe acquiring any coins there may be difficult, I don't know as I don't live there but anytime an item is highly sought, attempts to copy it will be prevalent.

Those who follow numismatics closely do realize that counterfeiting is inherent in all forms of high value coins but is not restricted to valuable coins only as it is rampant in very many types of collectibles from sports memorabilia to highly prized art. Wherever there is money to be made there will be thieves to attempt to steal it. For those people collecting any high value items regardless of what it is, proper research needs to be done before investing.

Collecting high value numismatics is not for everyone and for those not willing or wanting to do some research I would not recommend buying pandas or any high value collectible. For these people it's probably best to stick to bullion or keeping their money in the bank.

I have fortunately collected 100's of high value silver, gold, platinum graded pandas and only got stuck with a $100 fraud in my initial stages of collecting so it has been very rewarding for me and my family.

I can honestly say that here in the US the Chinese Panda is extremely popular as it is in China and all over Europe. Maybe it's just a difference in culture. I have no problem with that. People have to do what works for them.

 

Not trying to downgrade Australian lunars but could you give me a few examples of some that have appreciated as much as the panda for any given comparable year? I just don't see the demand here ...

 

if you could find the price of silver each year since 1996 then yes I could, all series I coins fetch a healthy premium especially on ebay. Even series II coins are now in high demand, for example the 2009 Ox is fetching upwards of $80 and its release price was based on silver spot around $20

thats a good question I havent ever researched it that much maybe someone has the release price figures form the perth mint?

 

Wouldn't it be as simple as to look at the price of a year 2000 1 oz silver Chinese Panda and then compare it to a 2000 1 oz lunar coin? Or a 1998 panda compared to a 1998 lunar?

If both coins were minted in the same year and they both contain the equal amount of silver or gold, then it is an equal comparison I would think?

I can give you the answer there is none that can or will compare. If so I would really be interested to see it

As I said I am not trying to denigrate Australian modern coins but I do not see any of them that will compare in value in appreciation when compared to the panda and that goes for American modern coins as well. There is very little demand for them other than bullion value.

 

not really because we need to know the release month

PS you're not denigrating anything its all kosha

 

I wish someone would denigrate to hell all the Aussie lunar coins. Then I'd be able to get dragons at close to spot!!! ................... Sorry to mention the "d" word (d being drag#n_).

 

You also need to know the relative premiums to spot at release. The important thing is how much return you would have gotten on your investment dollar.

 

Well, there's the redback spider, which goes for more than $1,000. I don't think that it's a direct comparison though, as it's a proof coin that is part of a smaller set (and not an annual release). IMO, Australians wouldn't touch it unless they can get it close to spot and then resell it to europeans for more than $1,000. It needs to be pointed out that the numismatic market in Australia is miniscule. That is why the Perth Mint markets the majority of its coins to U.S. and Europe. The numismatic forum here on SS is probably the least visited, and I believe that in itself speaks volumes. I'm both a panda lover and a stacker so I can appreciate the arguments coming from both sides. I guess stackers just don't like the hard sell approach. I personally think that hard selling is not necessary, as pandas are indeed some of the most beautiful coins in the world. And I think there can be healthy trading on here just by sharing photos and some history on the different panda coins. It will not happen overnight though, so we all need to be patient and try to help each other understand the coins.

SS has already been flooded by newbies trying to make a quick buck off of the dragons...a major, major turn off for me. For me, it's about the inherent beauty/appeal of the coins, the rarity, and the entity minting the coins that should enhance the value of the coins over time...not fear, hype, or mania. Bullion is a different animal altogether and shouldn't be compared to numismatic coins. FWIW, I consider the 2011 pandas 'bullion', and don't expect them to appreciate as much as the earlier coins just because of the wide availability at this time. But I'm no expert.

 

Therein lies the benefit of the Pandas. When spot goes up, Pandas go up. When spot goes down, Pandas remain steady.
For a 7-8% premium at the time of release, you have a solid hedge against downswings in spot, and a free run up if silver ramps up.

Please keep rude comments like this to yourself. Attack the idea not the people.

People do pay 100% and more over spot, because Pandas have been doing better than mere spot performance.

In 2007, the standard 2000 Frosted Panda BU was valued at 880RMB (approx. $146). Today it is valued at over $500 (even more for NGC coins). Growth of 3.42 times.
In 2007, the standard ASE was about $18. Today it is valued about $39. Growth of 2.16 times.
So yes, the expensive coins have also appreciated faster than spot and standard bullion.

Here's a 2000 Mirror comparison.
A meager $10,000 investment 11 years ago if placed in ASEs ($6.50) would only be worth approx. $60,000 today ($38.93).
A meager $10,000 investment 11 years ago if placed in Mirrored Pandas ($10) would now be worth over $1,500,000 (>$1500)

This is a baseless assertion. There is practically zero risk if you buy from reliable sources. Pandas can be purchased at almost any local bank in China (ask Aurora Et Luna if you want an independent witness). If the counterfeiting issue was such a huge problem, this would not be possible.

There are many reasons why people invest in Pandas, and one of them is because the profits have outweighed the risks. Comeaux has given his own personal examples (many thanks for sharing), as have I. If you think the risk of getting a fake Panda is too great for you to enter the Panda market, that's fine. Don't invest in them.

Your comments I assume are directed at me. This is a very rude comment to make and is completely unjustified.
If you don't like the commentary I write regarding Pandas, you are not obliged to read them.

 

i find it necessary to defend pandas...







my partner just dropped my 2009 Panda in his dinner!!!!!!

 

Ouch.

 

Hehehe... happens to the best of us

 

I will stop touching the Pandas on this forum - unless further baited.

and i wasnt being rude.

and it is a cash cow.

THUCYDIDES79 wrote:
And when you sell pandas and when you list it for $100 per 1 oz and than you list 10 different points on why its such a
great investment - you do it so THAT YOU JUSTIFY THE HIGH PRICE THAT THE BUYER PAYS TODAY -
Its 2011 and the people have been bitten every possible way - and the biting is always done it the same manner.


this wasnt answered by the way.

but i understand where you are coming from.
I would probably behave very similarly if in your situation.