Transfer to more libertarian system?

[hawkeye]

Your all a bunch of wishful thinking crackpots :

I mean that in a good way . Your assumptions about most people not understanding the concept i feel is way off the mark.

IMO most people understand the concept but like me think it has more holes in it than not .

Get up on your stools & yell it at the world just dont be dissapointed when nobody stops to listen for anymore than a minute or two until they hear you want to privatise everything ...thats where your going to lose the masses . A few of us have been around long enough to see many things get privatised & turn to shit or the prices go up .

Its been done before & you guys think your onto something new & excititng . :lol:

Im sure if the government owned the coles/woolies as a monopoly food wouldnt be so expensive because the people would rise up against them & they would be out in a blink

Privatisation isnt the answer to all our woes .

You've been around long enough to see the way things are going. What about your kids? And grandkids? Do you want to see things get worse for them?/

It's not like in generations past, we have the internet now. The most amazing tool for communication ever. Would you have ever even heard of most of these ideas if not for the internet? Or come across as many people? I know I wouldn't have.

It's either do this or watch Australia descend into a fascist, big brother, surveillance security state.

The privatisation you speak of is mostly the state selling it's company that has special state privileges of some kind to private operators. Not opening things up to competition. Has nothing to do with competition. Basically, it's the government perverting the language so it suits them again. The same way they say they want to make houses affordable, but all their actions are intended to drive prices up. The same way they call the banking cartel, the free market. It's all tricks of language. Very Orwellian.

 

[spannermonkey]

I'm too getting sick of fighting the system and trying to change the unchangeable.

I have quit listening to Alex Jones :lol:

And that's the secret
Save yourself some heartache & get on with it

Auspm , your a communist spy that forget to come in after the war was over

 

[1for1]

Your all a bunch of wishful thinking crackpots :

I mean that in a good way . Your assumptions about most people not understanding the concept i feel is way off the mark.

IMO most people understand the concept but like me think it has more holes in it than not .

Get up on your stools & yell it at the world just dont be dissapointed when nobody stops to listen for anymore than a minute or two until they hear you want to privatise everything ...thats where your going to lose the masses . A few of us have been around long enough to see many things get privatised & turn to shit or the prices go up .

Its been done before & you guys think your onto something new & exciting . :lol:

Im sure if the government owned the coles/woolies as a monopoly food wouldnt be so expensive because the people would rise up against them & they would be out in a blink

Privatisation isnt the answer to all our woes .

Privatisation isnt the answer to all our woes .


Exactly.. privatisation is the ONLY exception to the pure capitilism model i envisage working.. if something is existing and its a utility and a monopoly (due to price and other barriers to entry) then it must be left to the state to control and preserve (yes law and governments running it - at a loss of course)..

I grew up in the 80's in NZ where the country was a used as a test case for privatisation.. they attempt to hoodiwnk the public through creeping incrementalism.. a series of steps so the public give up fighting and get lost in time and change increments.. bottom line is some things belong to the people so its not for the government to sell our assets to a 3rd party for what probably amounts to a personal kick-back in some form at the expense of the nation and its future inhabitants.

Other than this one rule ... entreprenuers are free to create there own goods and services to fill the needs of society..

the less goverment regulation the more prosperity and lowest possible prices and best possible quality, for this is what the free market aspires to deliver.. the sucess/failure feedback loop ensures this. (unlike governments that can sucessfully FAIL).

I think half the problem is people think subjectively or misinterpret other peoples facts/opinions.. this is the reason human adults stuggle to learn or be convinced.. try huffing some scotchguard.. perhaps your mind may be full of BS and needs a little emptying

 

[renovator]

Your all a bunch of wishful thinking crackpots :

I mean that in a good way . Your assumptions about most people not understanding the concept i feel is way off the mark.

IMO most people understand the concept but like me think it has more holes in it than not .

Get up on your stools & yell it at the world just dont be dissapointed when nobody stops to listen for anymore than a minute or two until they hear you want to privatise everything ...thats where your going to lose the masses . A few of us have been around long enough to see many things get privatised & turn to shit or the prices go up .

Its been done before & you guys think your onto something new & exciting . :lol:

Im sure if the government owned the coles/woolies as a monopoly food wouldnt be so expensive because the people would rise up against them & they would be out in a blink

Privatisation isnt the answer to all our woes .

Privatisation isnt the answer to all our woes .


Exactly.. privatisation is the ONLY exception to the pure capitilism model i envisage working.. if something is existing and its a utility and a monopoly (due to price and other barriers to entry) then it must be left to the state to control and preserve (yes law and governments running it - at a loss of course)..

I grew up in the 80's in NZ where the country was a used as a test case for privatisation.. they attempt to hoodiwnk the public through creeping incrementalism.. a series of steps so the public give up fighting and get lost in time and change increments.. bottom line is some things belong to the people so its not for the government to sell our assets to a 3rd party for what probably amounts to a personal kick-back in some form at the expense of the nation and its future inhabitants.

Other than this one rule ... entreprenuers are free to create there own goods and services to fill the needs of society..

the less goverment regulation the more prosperity and lowest possible prices and best possible quality, for this is what the free market aspires to deliver.. the sucess/failure feedback loop ensures this. (unlike governments that can sucessfully FAIL).

I think half the problem is people think subjectively or misinterpret other peoples facts/opinions.. this is the reason human adults stuggle to learn or be convinced.. try huffing some scotchguard.. perhaps your mind may be full of BS and needs a little emptying

the less goverment regulation the more prosperity and lowest possible prices and best possible quality, for this is what the free market aspires to deliver.. the sucess/failure feedback loop ensures this ?

Yep just look at the quality of a lot of products made in china where theres no regulation & anyone can make anything without a certain standard to be adhered to. will the industry regulate itself ? We all know that doesnt work ...... .You got the lowest possible price bit right ..

The supposed facts you say ? until its achieved its only theory .Because you THINK its fact doesnt mean it is .

Some of the libertarian theory has some substance but a lot is pie in the shy wishing & doesnt cater for the masses & thousands of different situations that the current system does . Its too simplistic a theory . Life & its many situations is very complicated

 

[AngloSaxon]

Some of the libertarian theory has some substance but a lot is pie in the shy wishing & doesnt cater for the masses & thousands of different situations that the current system does . Its too simplistic a theory . Life & its many situations is very complicated

You're correct that I want to do away with the endless rules and infringements and taxes on "different situations that the current system does" on every circumstance in life. And let people live their lives, where they do no harm to another, freely.

 

[bordsilver]

Privatisation isnt the answer to all our woes .


Exactly.. privatisation is the ONLY exception to the pure capitilism model i envisage working.. if something is existing and its a utility and a monopoly (due to price and other barriers to entry) then it must be left to the state to control and preserve (yes law and governments running it - at a loss of course)..

I grew up in the 80's in NZ where the country was a used as a test case for privatisation.. they attempt to hoodiwnk the public through creeping incrementalism.. a series of steps so the public give up fighting and get lost in time and change increments.. bottom line is some things belong to the people so its not for the government to sell our assets to a 3rd party for what probably amounts to a personal kick-back in some form at the expense of the nation and its future inhabitants.

Other than this one rule ... entreprenuers are free to create there own goods and services to fill the needs of society..

I 95% agreed with your previous post - i.e. with everything except this point that you have now repeated.

1. If the existing Govt infrastructure/services is running at a profit then there is no issue in privatising and - with appropriate transfer to ensure competition - then costs will come down (or quality goes up) and everyone benefits.
2. If the existing Govt infrastructure/services is running at a loss then no matter how long lived the capital is, it will eventually be need to be replaced. This is the problem with keeping it in Govt hands forever. Either the Govt enterprise will need to put up profits to cover the cost of investing in the depreciated capital (as per any private enterprise) or else they will continue to need subsidies.
- (a) If the former then privatise it and reap the benefits. Admittedly - and this may be where you are coming from - with certain capital stock, because it is already sunk, you can wait a really, really long time before raising prices to cover the cost if it stays in public hands but at some point the price will rise to cover the upgrades/replacement. The capital is sunk so why not let the public benefit from cheap OPEX until the time eventually comes for a step change in prices to cover the next phase? The NBN is probably a good example of such an asset. It should absolutely never have been done by the Government but once it is done then it has a very low OPEX with capital that will last decades. Hence, depending on the financial position of the Government there shouldn't really be any urgency in privatising such an asset once it is built.
- (b) If the latter then when do you stop? You are permanently distorting the markets which is a loss.

 

[renovator]

Privatisation isnt the answer to all our woes .


Exactly.. privatisation is the ONLY exception to the pure capitilism model i envisage working.. if something is existing and its a utility and a monopoly (due to price and other barriers to entry) then it must be left to the state to control and preserve (yes law and governments running it - at a loss of course)..

I grew up in the 80's in NZ where the country was a used as a test case for privatisation.. they attempt to hoodiwnk the public through creeping incrementalism.. a series of steps so the public give up fighting and get lost in time and change increments.. bottom line is some things belong to the people so its not for the government to sell our assets to a 3rd party for what probably amounts to a personal kick-back in some form at the expense of the nation and its future inhabitants.

Other than this one rule ... entreprenuers are free to create there own goods and services to fill the needs of society..

I 95% agreed with your previous post - i.e. with everything except this point that you have now repeated.

1. If the existing Govt infrastructure/services is running at a profit then there is no issue in privatising and - with appropriate transfer to ensure competition - then costs will come down (or quality goes up) and everyone benefits.
2. If the existing Govt infrastructure/services is running at a loss then no matter how long lived the capital is, it will eventually be need to be replaced. This is the problem with keeping it in Govt hands forever. Either the Govt enterprise will need to put up profits to cover the cost of investing in the depreciated capital (as per any private enterprise) or else they will continue to need subsidies.
- (a) If the former then privatise it and reap the benefits. Admittedly - and this may be where you are coming from - with certain capital stock, because it is already sunk, you can wait a really, really long time before raising prices to cover the cost if it stays in public hands but at some point the price will rise to cover the upgrades/replacement. The capital is sunk so why not let the public benefit from cheap OPEX until the time eventually comes for a step change in prices to cover the next phase? The NBN is probably a good example of such an asset. It should absolutely never have been done by the Government but once it is done then it has a very low OPEX with capital that will last decades. Hence, depending on the financial position of the Government there shouldn't really be any urgency in privatising such an asset once it is built.
- (b) If the latter then when do you stop? You are permanently distorting the markets which is a loss.

On #2 . I dont think it needs to turn a profit imo thats what i pay my tax for . .Everything cant make a profit if its beneficial for society some things need to be subsidised with our tax money . . Thats why i dont mind paying some taxes .I look at it as my donation for the betterment of society

You seem selfish in your posts & seem not to care about society as a collective only how it affects you .

So distort the market if it betters peoples lives . At least the masses are getting something for their tax money

 

[bordsilver]

On #2 . I dont think it needs to turn a profit imo thats what i pay my tax for . .Everything cant make a profit if its beneficial for society some things need to be subsidised with our tax money . . Thats why i dont mind paying some taxes .I look at it as my donation for the betterment of society

You seem selfish in your posts & seem not to care about society as a collective only how it affects you .

So distort the market if it betters peoples lives . At least the masses are getting something for their tax money

Please stop being a troll reno. You know quite well multiple people have answered all this many times. You started out quite well on this thread then the last couple of posts have been straight back to the same old reno <sigh>

 

[renovator]

On #2 . I dont think it needs to turn a profit imo thats what i pay my tax for . .Everything cant make a profit if its beneficial for society some things need to be subsidised with our tax money . . Thats why i dont mind paying some taxes .I look at it as my donation for the betterment of society

You seem selfish in your posts & seem not to care about society as a collective only how it affects you .

So distort the market if it betters peoples lives . At least the masses are getting something for their tax money

Please stop being a troll reno. You know quite well multiple people have answered all this many times. You started out quite well on this thread then the last couple of posts have been straight back to the same old reno <sigh>

Answered what ? I didnt ask a question !!! just stating how your a selfish dreamer with no real plan for society as a collective .You & the others have answered nothing .....I repeat nothing just gave theories & try to pass them off as facts .When someone offers up a solution for the MASSES il stop posting & give you a pat on the back until then i'l call it as i see it .Jesus you guys hate the truth thats your problem .

Started out quite well geez thats good of you to let me know when ive been good like a school teacher :lol:.

You are the student here a student of life & obviously you missed a few classes.

 

[DanDee]

A little less conversation, a little more action baby.


Round and round and round she goes,
won't smell bad if you hold your nose.

ya pays ya money and ya takes ya chances.

 

[renovator]

A little less conversation, a little more action baby.


Round and round and round she goes,
won't smell bad if you hold your nose.

ya pays ya money and ya takes ya chances.

But but but they dont want to pay their money :lol:

 

[DanDee]

The people here are still looking to change the system

And again, looking to change the system, doing nothing , achieving nothing.
stop looking and start doing.

 

[DanDee]

ya pays ya money and ya takes ya chances.

But but but they dont want to pay their money :lol:

No money, no honey.

 

[Lovey80]

You seem selfish in your posts & seem not to care about society as a collective only how it affects you .

So distort the market if it betters peoples lives . At least the masses are getting something for their tax money

You seem selfish in your posts in that you obviously don't care about society at all as a collective because the current system you love so much actually harms the "collective" in that each individual in the collective are exponentially hampered by the actions of the state. You some how equate taking more with one hand than the state returns with the other is a good thing.

On the distortion of the market..... If government should be involved in something that delivers a service, then that service HAS to be a monopoly without any real hope of competition from the private sector before it can hope to "better peoples lives" any better than the private sector could have done at a cheaper and better use of scarce resources. So unless you are referring to the monopolies 1for1 and I are referring to, you are talking out your ass.

I don't mid paying taxes to cover such things either. The problem with privatisation that you have witnessed in your lifetime is the result of big socialist governments selling off assets that then get charged at a market rate (costs go up) but at the same time the government didn't lower your taxes. Previously your taxes were "subsidising" the badly run government service and when it became privatized and your in hand bill went up, you didn't have the difference in your pocket to pay for it because the government simply turned around and spent it on winning more votes. You got double tapped by big government and every time you blamed privatisation.... Seems someone has been flying through the big school of life and missing all the details.

 

[renovator]

You seem selfish in your posts & seem not to care about society as a collective only how it affects you .

So distort the market if it betters peoples lives . At least the masses are getting something for their tax money

You seem selfish in your posts in that you obviously don't care about society at all as a collective because the current system you love so much actually harms the "collective" in that each individual in the collective are exponentially hampered by the actions of the state. You some how equate taking more with one hand than the state returns with the other is a good thing.

On the distortion of the market..... If government should be involved in something that delivers a service, then that service HAS to be a monopoly without any real hope of competition from the private sector before it can hope to "better peoples lives" any better than the private sector could have done at a cheaper and better use of scarce resources. So unless you are referring to the monopolies 1for1 and I are referring to, you are talking out your ass.

I don't mid paying taxes to cover such things either. The problem with privatisation that you have witnessed in your lifetime is the result of big socialist governments selling off assets that then get charged at a market rate (costs go up) but at the same time the government didn't lower your taxes. Previously your taxes were "subsidising" the badly run government service and when it became privatized and your in hand bill went up, you didn't have the difference in your pocket to pay for it because the government simply turned around and spent it on winning more votes. You got double tapped by big government and every time you blamed privatisation.... Seems someone has been flying through the big school of life and missing all the details.

Your second paragraph is a bit wild so is what you are saying that in the current system my example would be public health . Your saying there should be no private hospitals because they are not a monopoly ?.Thats just one of many examples where it betters peoples lives from not having a monopoly .

Another would be mental health who would take care of those affected for free like they do now remember most are not in hospitals


How about subsidized medicine who would do that if its only a profit driven system ?

Unemployment & disability benefits ?

I could go on but i'l wait with baited breath for your private enterprise solutions for those when they will lose money hand over fist

 

[Auspm]

The people here are still looking to change the system

And again, looking to change the system, doing nothing , achieving nothing.
stop looking and start doing.

You will never change the system by thinking you can never change the system

The only way you can change this broken, corrupt system is with a change in the hearts and minds of the people

Ron Paul tried political change from within the system being the "doer" you claim is the only way to change it

Tell me, how far did he get?

We've been here before mate and as I've mentioned here many times you cannot change the system from within. You cannot hope to change a system with the same mindset that created it

The revolution of this controlled system comes from an intellectual change. Not the endorsement and capitulation with it as some here have done

That can be achieved through simple avenues like free thinking and speech in places like this - uncontrolled and unregulated by a corrupt media, even with the system capitulators here telling people it can't be done

A little less talk and more action?

How about we start with a little less bullshit and a little more honesty?

Far too many people here want to tell you how to think, what to believe and what is or is not possible

It's only going to change when the people change and the people are never going to change when all they hear us you can't fight it, give in, compromise and just be happy with what you get

That's bullshit thinking and I won't adhere to it

The system might crack a whip and steal my efforts whilst people here kid themselves that if they play the rigged game just a little better than others they are "free" but the reality is you're all trapped in the sick system and the only path to freedom starts with your own mind

I might be a wage slave, but my mind and opinion are my own. I won't be forced or compromised for the sake of endorsing a system I dispise, nor will I assume that the scraps from the masters table should be good enough

I've as much right to be alive and to think for myself as anyone. No one is above me and I damn well won't bow to someone else just because they tell me I have to

There's plenty of people here who have given up in their own way. But the worst crime of all is to surrender your mind to the will if others

That's why when people around here start telling me what to think I get nasty

I give less than a damn what people's claimed credentials are - it doesn't impress me in the slightest

If we are to be free of the tyranny that is destroying the world today, we need to cast aside this bullshit ideal and start over

I find it takes more courage to stand on your own principle than to just cop out like many already have

So yes, simply TALKING and reaching out to people IS doing something positive.

How many thousands of people can one reach talking here?

More than a podium in parliament?

More than a newspaper?

How many people in a place like this are actually willing to listen?

Think about it

 

[renovator]

So yes, simply TALKING and reaching out to people IS doing something positive.......... No its just talking

How many thousands of people can one reach talking here? .......well on this thread theres been 2800 views about 6 or 7 per poster my guess would be maybe 400 max

More than a podium in parliament?....... No

More than a newspaper?.....No

How many people in a place like this are actually willing to listen?.....Not many about a dozen by my calculations

Think about it...... Ok ......(insert thinking music )..................... nope still actions speak louder than words :lol:

 

[Auspm]

How about I take to your idiot head with a shovel Reno?

Action enough for you?

 

[Ernster]

.....

 

[Rinchin]

How would people feel about state provided services derived from other inputs.

E.g. We currently pay a massive dole bill with tax money, at the same time fork out even more money to keep prisoners locked up. Why not put the crims to work growing tucker, and hand out food parcels to the unemployed rather than cash.

Kinda feels like when you stand in front of a fence and can't tell if you're fenced in or fenced out. We live free, but this only gives us the right to work and support those who have "lost" their freedom.

I think after the social welfare support systems we have come used to over past decades the libertarian model of govt only really providing defence might be a bit outdated.

I'm sure if you took into account people's basic needs and the infrastructure already built and in govt hands a direction satisfying both libertarian ideals and a modern social responsibility could be achievable.

Govt doesn't need to meddle and micro manage people's lives, but there could be room to provide a level of support. There is a lot of empty ground between the current nanny state and an ideological libertarian paradise.

I think without the libertarian direction current systems much crash. The funding is not stable long term to spend ourselves into this giant hole wiping people's backsides. Without social direction changes that are nessicary can't gain traction. There's too many people out there indoctrinated in the current system. I'm seeing the only solution as some middle ground discussions and work towards a population that doesn't need their backside wiped. Not a simply you're on your own now, more of an intermediate step...... The pull ups phase of teaching our citizens to wipe their own arse.