Transfer to more libertarian system?

[Lovey80]

I want to give myself an uppercut for arguing with you two but I am compelled to do so on the "minor points".

I largely agree but would note that the credible threat of competition even if not physical competition is generally enough to "keep the bastards honest". Hence, the owner of the port infrastructure (not the operator which can be readily privatised) can be readily prevented from "excessive" charging by the threat of a major customer (or group of customers) being willing to, say, construct their own port nearby or to build a rail link from another port 200km away.

As Dickmojo points out below, a monopoly will mostly only ever exist with assistance of the state. And for ports and dams and rail lines alike the state will always ensure that is the case. Why? Because, the state will always be there to stop pure capitalism from destroying the environment unnecessarily (well I hope they are). So, if say a harbour was privatised and started gouging, you will never have a situation where the government (or the locals) will allow you to bulldoze hundreds of acres of mangroves et al so you can build another port simply just to compete. Sure if the port was well in excess of capacity this may be considered but to wreck a nice piece of virgin coastline just because someone is gouging and competition needs to be maintained will never happen. Alternatively, for the same case of water supply. If a dam operator overcharges to the point that say desalination became viable because the government will never allow a huge dam to be built just to lower water prices, all the dam operator has to do is lower his prices back down to cheap levels until he puts the desal guy out of business and put them back up.

, changing the provisions of national defence, roads, justice, etc is extremely challenging but (I believe) completely possible.

National Defence can not ever be effectively privatised in a Libertarian society. Happy to discuss that in a separate conversation.

Regarding your other points, I hold that private enterprise could only ever hold a monopoly or a pseudo monopoly with assistance from the State i.e. it requires the State to pass regulations and requirements that are so onerous that only very large companies with very large economies of scale to hire armies of lawyers and lobbyists and accountants etc. can comply with them. Smaller and potentially more agile competitors, which could otherwise outcompete these bloated monopolies, are prevented to by Big Statism in cahoots with Crony Corporatism, and the only solution to this problem would be small government libertarianism

Agree totaly with this sentiment, but my comments above to Bordsilver still apply with some select types of industry.

 

[trew]

If the only people who foresaw the GFC BEFORE it happened were Austrian economists, doesn't that tell you that Austrian economics is fundamentally correct, and that all the other schools of economics thought are invalid?

OK here is my last post in this thread (really) and a tip....

I, and the other 99.8% of voters, do not understand what Austrian economics is (or any of the other forms for that matter).
I am not an economics scholar and I don't have the time or inclination to become one.

My simple brain works with simple concepts and I look to history as my guide and conclude that extremes don't work.
- Communism doesn't work. There must be reward for hard work, creativity and ingenuity to achieve progress.
- Raw capitalism doesn't work. Eventually one or two players (individuals/families/companies) become so big they achieve monopolies.
The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, leading to social unrest and eventually revolution.
- The systems that have shown to work best around the world are democracies with a balance between capitalism and socialism.
Enough capitalism to give incentive for people to work, create, invent etc but with laws preventing the extremes from forming.
But also enough safety nets so everybody has at least a basic standard of living (housing, water, electricity, food, transport, education etc)

If you cannot explain to this simpleton, in short simple terms, of the merits of your goals, then you have no chance of convincing the other 99.8% of voters.
And if you don't find a way to convince us voters, you will just be a group of intellectuals forever going on about how things could be if only everybody else wasn't so stupid.

 

[GoldenEgg]

National Defence can not ever be effectively privatised in a Libertarian society. Happy to discuss that in a separate conversation.

Switzerland is close enough.Probably wouldnt work here though, convict past & all.

 

[bordsilver]

I, and the other 99.8% of voters, do not understand what Austrian economics is (or any of the other forms for that matter).
I am not an economics scholar and I don't have the time or inclination to become one.

The great thing is it didn't require the 99% or whatever to write things like the Magna Carta, Declaration of Independence, US Constitution etc but the concepts by how you lived your life and what's right and wrong were simple enough that they lay all the necessary foundations. Primarily the task is removing the negative brainwashing since birth that it is the Government that looks out for your best interests rather than yourself. The rest is natural and only needs the "intellectuals" in small areas.

 

[Rinchin]

If the only people who foresaw the GFC BEFORE it happened were Austrian economists, doesn't that tell you that Austrian economics is fundamentally correct, and that all the other schools of economics thought are invalid?

OK here is my last post in this thread (really) and a tip....

I, and the other 99.8% of voters, do not understand what Austrian economics is (or any of the other forms for that matter).
I am not an economics scholar and I don't have the time or inclination to become one.

My simple brain works with simple concepts and I look to history as my guide and conclude that extremes don't work.
- Communism doesn't work. There must be reward for hard work, creativity and ingenuity to achieve progress.
- Raw capitalism doesn't work. Eventually one or two players (individuals/families/companies) become so big they achieve monopolies.
The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, leading to social unrest and eventually revolution.
- The systems that have shown to work best around the world are democracies with a balance between capitalism and socialism.
Enough capitalism to give incentive for people to work, create, invent etc but with laws preventing the extremes from forming.
But also enough safety nets so everybody has at least a basic standard of living (housing, water, electricity, food, transport, education etc)

If you cannot explain to this simpleton, in short simple terms, of the merits of your goals, then you have no chance of convincing the other 99.8% of voters.
And if you don't find a way to convince us voters, you will just be a group of intellectuals forever going on about how things could be if only everybody else wasn't so stupid.

Exactly. In my book privatisation would need to be years down the road, particularly in nz. You can't just give away state assets in an environment where the rules are so stacked for big business. I don't think there's anywhere that's actually ready to peruse a full libertarian outlook. The system would need to be undone bit by bit. Not only would a lot of legislation need to be addressed but cultural attitudes would need to change big time. You can't just cut funding to unemployment benefits etc with no notice, the people both working and not need to have faith and be shown how alternate systems can provide. People need to gradually be reunited with the freedoms that have been whittled away years of blue vs red simply adding more rules to tho books.

People are too indoctrinated in the current system of govt will look after you, they can't handle concepts of full blown freedoms.

Please don't confuse all the discussion on this thread about what exactly libertarian systems would look like fully built, we are no where near this. The current system wasn't installed Overnight but gradually had been built through political actions and the cultural change that has allowed it. Any swing the other way would also need to be gradual.

I'm sure as the current system was being built no one would have been interested if the politicians were talking about how things are now as an end goal?

I'm sure you understand the benefits of change towards less government interference I your everyday life, and less interference in the operation of small business.

I'm not talking about privatising everything ec...... Yet, no ones ready, simply using parliament as a tool to reduce the useless rules and allow private ingenuity to talk an some of the tasks our government spends our taxes on.

 

[AngloSaxon]

I, and the other 99.8% of voters, do not understand what Austrian economics is (or any of the other forms for that matter).
I am not an economics scholar and I don't have the time or inclination to become one.
And if you don't find a way to convince us voters, you will just be a group of intellectuals forever going on about how things could be if only everybody else wasn't so stupid.

Go to youtube and look up the channels for 'LearnLiberty' and 'LibertyPen'. LearnLiberty is a channel of Austrian Economists and LibertyPen is segments of libertarians in the media, and short portions of political speeches. I find LibertyPen the most enjoyable to watch, and LearnLiberty the most educational.

Then there is 'Reason', short for Reason Magazine. I think of Reason as libertarianism for the common man. They cover a huge breadth of topics and you won't agree with their perspective on all of them (I don't) but that doesn't matter. Who agrees with an organisation 100% of the time?

It doesn't take much to watch, absorb and learn.

You're welcome.

 

[bordsilver]

I, and the other 99.8% of voters, do not understand what Austrian economics is (or any of the other forms for that matter).
I am not an economics scholar and I don't have the time or inclination to become one.
And if you don't find a way to convince us voters, you will just be a group of intellectuals forever going on about how things could be if only everybody else wasn't so stupid.

Go to youtube and look up the channels for 'LearnLiberty' and 'LibertyPen'. LearnLiberty is a channel of Austrian Economists and LibertyPen is segments of libertarians in the media, and short portions of political speeches. I find LibertyPen the most enjoyable to watch, and LearnLiberty the most educational.

Then there is 'Reason', short for Reason Magazine. I think of Reason as libertarianism for the common man. They cover a huge breadth of topics and you won't agree with their perspective on all of them (I don't) but that doesn't matter. Who agrees with an organisation 100% of the time?

It doesn't take much to watch, absorb and learn.

You're welcome.

Thanks. I hadn't seen those guys before. Have watched a few short ones already and I like the LearnLiberty guys who simplify the content quite well (sometimes it's easier to listen to a video than read an essay).

 

[dickmojo]

If the only people who foresaw the GFC BEFORE it happened were Austrian economists, doesn't that tell you that Austrian economics is fundamentally correct, and that all the other schools of economics thought are invalid?

OK here is my last post in this thread (really) and a tip....

I, and the other 99.8% of voters, do not understand what Austrian economics is (or any of the other forms for that matter).
I am not an economics scholar and I don't have the time or inclination to become one.

My simple brain works with simple concepts and I look to history as my guide and conclude that extremes don't work.
- Communism doesn't work. There must be reward for hard work, creativity and ingenuity to achieve progress.
- Raw capitalism doesn't work. Eventually one or two players (individuals/families/companies) become so big they achieve monopolies.
The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, leading to social unrest and eventually revolution.
- The systems that have shown to work best around the world are democracies with a balance between capitalism and socialism.
Enough capitalism to give incentive for people to work, create, invent etc but with laws preventing the extremes from forming.
But also enough safety nets so everybody has at least a basic standard of living (housing, water, electricity, food, transport, education etc)

If you cannot explain to this simpleton, in short simple terms, of the merits of your goals, then you have no chance of convincing the other 99.8% of voters.
And if you don't find a way to convince us voters, you will just be a group of intellectuals forever going on about how things could be if only everybody else wasn't so stupid.

Just watch this video then Trew: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj2fwWpXRDM[/youtube]
You know its true...

 

[Lovey80]

You want to transfer to a more Libertarian system? Easy as pie. Convince enough of the productive people in society to temporarily become one of the people Schiff is referring to above. Sell it to them that it is just a nice big low paid holiday (just like they have been paying for the others). Soon enough there wont be enough producers to keep the consumers propped up and it will force them to fold.

Maybe not easy as pie but that would do it I recon.

 

[dickmojo]

You want to transfer to a more Libertarian system? Easy as pie. Convince enough of the productive people in society to temporarily become one of the people Schiff is referring to above. Sell it to them that it is just a nice big low paid holiday (just like they have been paying for the others). Soon enough there wont be enough producers to keep the consumers propped up and it will force them to fold.

Maybe not easy as pie but that would do it I recon.

Hey! This wasn't your idea... its the plot from 'Atlas Shrugged'!

 

[capt.sparrow]

Its disappointing that something promising, ie a thread with the exchange of ideas between similarly minded people sharing information on an interesting subject, is hijacked into flat out attacks on the idea of the thread.

Why dont those who disagree with Libertarians and the concepts of libertarians just start a competing thread titled \"why we will not have a more libertarian system\" and see which gets more replies and discussion. I will use my free will and not bother to read it!

Why the hell are we talking about Somalia? Corruption? Complete timewasting diversions.

Because thats all the statists/zombies can come up with ...

All government lovers have their own selfish reasons for loving the status quo - where the state steals money from productive people and gives it to unproductive people.

For example with Renovator Im guessing its because hes become wealthy on the back of the distorted RE market created by state and federal governments in Australia.

Although for some I guess self enrichment may not be the reason, but ignorance instead.

 

[Lovey80]

You want to transfer to a more Libertarian system? Easy as pie. Convince enough of the productive people in society to temporarily become one of the people Schiff is referring to above. Sell it to them that it is just a nice big low paid holiday (just like they have been paying for the others). Soon enough there wont be enough producers to keep the consumers propped up and it will force them to fold.

Maybe not easy as pie but that would do it I recon.

Hey! This wasn't your idea... its the plot from 'Atlas Shrugged'!

Lol hey, just because she's a nut bag doesn't make her wrong.

 

[1for1]

Firstly: dickmojo - WOW! You should defo run for PM, you sound like the common sense the majority need to smack them out of this false creeping paradigm of control and lower-standard of living.

1966 50c - $11 in 2013

We need smart common sense folk ... and we need people to get busy talking about this arguing with the socialists about why capitilism benefits EVERYONE and that rather than it NEGLECTING THE POOR, there would be more oppertunities to be employed. Housing, uni and healthcare would be cheaper, and our retired could ACTUALLY get bank interest and price inflation wouldnt SHIT on there retirement savings.. But its always the fear campaign that door living on the poverty line wont be able to feed his family..

Id never advocate a WORSE system yet i ALWAYS get yelled down as such by those only seeking a strawman arguement.. cos thats politics.. fickel and only stratching the surface of the complicated reality.

A point which seems to trip some up:

Capitalism is THE BEST and only way of allocating resources with utmost effiecency and marginal utilty. We need a system which allows for demand/supply equilibirums and offers incentives to entreprenuers and interest to savers... IE: encouraging house hold savings which are in turn used as capital investment.. private entrepruenuers hire staff and make money and pay taxes.. this is the functioning marketplace.

One key thing about this.. Countries ASSETS such as POWER cables and ports etc that are the result of a hundred years taxs and the result of our forefather sweat ARE NOT an example of the free market,, these are usually parts of the country that have massive barriers to entry and can be momopolistic such as hydro-electric power stations and data cables, power stations etc.

For me these are the examples of a COUNTRIES/STAtES asset and its in the best interest for everyone to keep them at a state-owned level.. these may lose money (of course being govt) but are there for us like they were for the last generation, and its not our right to SELL them to a private company... IF Australia does sell these off foolishly they usually gifting a mompoly to a private company... the GOVT has facilitied this... who knows what sort of DEAL is done in these situations but this is CROONY CAPITILISM where the GOVT facilitiates the monopoly...

Goverments have NO role in the marketplace.. even as regulators.. if there is RISK then private companies can insure for that risk, there are market rules and if they are not adhered too.. there is the legal system.. alot of the LEGISTLATION called for to further OVERSEE the market is because of the repel of glass-stegel allowing investment banks to fractionally-produce money.. Wind that back and its all much easier to regulate.. also credit-default swaps and DERIVIATIVES.. all functions of the disasterious sytem invented by an entreprenuer but systems that SHOULD never of been allowed to exist - Capitilists will try to invent PONZI SCHEMES but its up to the individual to access there investments... if you are to dumb to understand how to invest.. bank it in a long-term savings.. (not attractive when the market is rigged to facilitate expondental debt!) The thing is here.. if you want a good reward there is RISK.. so it is NEVER acceptable for the public to bail out private investors (Actually the PRIVATE BANKS screwed US citizens but only becuase the FED and congress signed off on it.. so i Squarely put the blame on GOVT.. after all.. We need a govt to stop giving away tax money to private banks that make off like bandits!

Other than this example Austrian economics builds an economy... our current debt as money system rewards spenders, NO POINT OF SAVING, rewards dole bludgers.. NO POINT OF WORKING, WASTES MONEY (as only an entreprenuer risks LOSING MONEY)... big govt dont feel the pain when they waste OUR tax money.

We need smart individuals making decisions and championing there own ideas.

Lately governments are trying to control 50% of the population with entitlements so they can maintain the majority and keep in power.. but this METHOD will only continue the amount of entitlements until there are no more earners.. then will all have a job.. well just have no standard of living and probably no food (goulag casino anyone)..

Who will bother to go to university when TAXES on the wealthy get to hire.. why study to be a lawyer..

Keynesian economies is sooo heavily flawed they cant stop the rot.... have there head in the sand about how WRONG the idealogies are.. and refuse to accept that a you cant consume if you have no standard of living and that is the way we are heading.. how is spending more going to help us?

We need SAVINGS, MORE TAX BREAKS for entreprenuers, less business legistation.. Shoot OH&S in the dome.. that alone has crippled the company i work for.. just slows everything and adds expense non-stop to every procedure.

The incentives to make money and employ people are drying up by the day.

Its a global economy and when the milk turns sour here entreprenuers will buy a one-way ticket to asia when they can operate under a more capitialistic system

RE: generous tax breaks for those that donate so we already allow compeitition.. this point is moot...

In a paradigm where there are no taxes OF COURSE people will be way more generious with there money.. im already donating 30% to the govt so its hard for me to want to give more.. to those getting taxed over 50% ... are you surpirsed... especially when all there other costs are rising like everyone elses.. those mansions use a lot of power buddy!

China has sucessfully exported there centralised socialism model.. how long til we get there censorship gateway? do you like that too?

I see western coutnries adopting the worst of centralised socialism and moving away from the freedom to totalitarium and facsim with the end goal being a closed circuit grid of GPS and cashless tracable finance.

The illuminati have the book open so the brethren can see the plan as it slowly comes to pass.. very HIDDEN in plain view.. but its playing out painfully slowly.

I am always suprised that you can understand gold and silver yet cant understand how the system is controlled by private banks and puppets in govt signing off on the pilliaging..

As stated by posters.. they do not have the time or inclination to research economics.. well guess what.. THAT is why we are screwed.. in a decocracy unless 50% of more can understand why its bad to have zero interest rates and a selfish entitlement system only moving more towards centralised facism then all hope is lost..

I hope one state like WA breaks away and forms a different govt as a REVEALATION to the rest of the world about just how poorly we are managing the RESOURCES BOOM.. we should be the JETSONS by now if we could just get out of the debt based banking control system.

But yeah we are all doomed.. no chance if people on this forum dont give a hoot, the avarage person wont even watch the DISINFO on the news, let alone research actualities and get there head around why more tax will yeild less tax income and why a mining tax will yeild less mining tax.. Any company that can reloacte O/S will do so!

 

[capt.sparrow]

Going on a slight tangent but I just feel the need to say it. I think there is a lot of misunderstanding about how different Libertarians really are from the Liberal Democracies we physically experience. As I have said elsewhere (including objectivists) we are all of the broad church and a lot of the details are whether one stream of thought are Protestants versus Anglicans or as Redback recently quoted whether one group are \"1862 post neo conservative movement pre revolution Reformist Baptists\" or are \"1873 post neo conservative movement pre revolution Reformist Baptists\". In many respects, as important as the differences are for certain fundamental reasons, the similarities far outweigh the differences. Hence, the \"leap of faith\" between the different groups shouldn\'t actually be that hard.

If someone wants to take Australia towards the Constitution of the federal Liberal Party, I would be more than happy (with the key exception being their \'conscription\' clause). If however, someone wants to take Australia toward the Labor Party Constitution then I\'ll whinge and complain and hate every step of the way. If someone is actually interested in the political state of Australia but have never read the two documents and more importantly understood what the various clauses really mean then I encourage them to do so. (Don\'t bother looking for the Greens one as they don\'t actually have one and just make stuff up as they go along based on standard watermelon propaganda and what seems fashionable.)

Importantly, there is a lot of misperception about what the various parties stand for because the Hawke-Keating Government largely ignored the ALP Constitution while the Howard led Liberal Party only partially followed its own Constitution. In contrast people like Conroy, Swan and Roxon largely embrace the ALP Constitution and I despise them all.

Consequently, if people want to advocate for the Liberal Democracies espoused in the Lib\'s Constitution or the US (particularly of the founding fathers) then I\'d embrace you as a close ally until we get to a situation where the differences separate us more than the things that are the same. Within the group notionally called \"Libertarians\", are the minarchists like Hayek (who I would argue are closely related to the Liberal Democratic principles) and the anarcho-capitalists like Rothbard and Block (who are the ones that Big A.D. etc don\'t understand and attack). [Apologies to Hawkeye and others who hate the use of the labels.]

As I have said in other threads, I would voluntarily go to war to preserve (certain) Liberal Democracies against socialist aggressors and this is fully consistent with my beliefs that they themselves are unnecessary and immoral compared to my (currently) preferred system of anarcho-capitalism (or similar systems/labels).

In other words, up your nose with a rubber hose if you think I don\'t like Australia and Western Civilisation and want to renounce/obliterate it. But similarly, up your nose etc if you think I\'ll stand by and hear people argue that increasingly socialist policies are a progression towards the next stage rather than a regression back toward the period before liberty became prominent in our societies. The significant and continual reduction in freedom of speech that is being imposed on Australia (and around the western world) is NOT a progression. Further, much of how this \"progression\" would occur due to the negatives inherent in the system were predicted over a century (or three) ago so the fact that the negatives are raising their ugly heads does not mean that they are somehow \"better\".

+ 1

Very well put!

 

[Lovey80]

Great post 1for1. Loved every word of it.

In particular

I hope one state like WA breaks away and forms a different govt as a REVEALATION to the rest of the world about just how poorly we are managing the RESOURCES BOOM.. we should be the JETSONS by now if we could just get out of the debt based banking control system.

If that happens I will pack my shit up so fast and move there that my family will probably file a missing persons report. If the commonwealth wants to go to war over it with WA, I'll take up arms to defend them.

 

[Yippe-Ki-Ya]

Great post 1for1. Loved every word of it.

In particular

I hope one state like WA breaks away and forms a different govt as a REVEALATION to the rest of the world about just how poorly we are managing the RESOURCES BOOM.. we should be the JETSONS by now if we could just get out of the debt based banking control system.

If that happens I will pack my shit up so fast and move there that my family will probably file a missing persons report. If the commonwealth wants to go to war over it with WA, I'll take up arms to defend them.

And one would then hope that such a breakaway state would have the good sense to recognise citizens' rights to defend themselves!
i.e. a right to bear arms would be a first and foremost requirement. Without such a basic right there can be no individual freedom!
Then we'd have a state much like Switzerland... and i doubt anybody would want to invade/occupy a territory where most citizens are armed.

Unlike the status in Australia today where only thugs and police are armed to the teeth, with the rest of society defenceless against either

 

[renovator]

Your all a bunch of wishful thinking crackpots :

I mean that in a good way . Your assumptions about most people not understanding the concept i feel is way off the mark.

IMO most people understand the concept but like me think it has more holes in it than not .

Get up on your stools & yell it at the world just dont be dissapointed when nobody stops to listen for anymore than a minute or two until they hear you want to privatise everything ...thats where your going to lose the masses . A few of us have been around long enough to see many things get privatised & turn to shit or the prices go up .

Its been done before & you guys think your onto something new & excititng . :lol:

Im sure if the government owned the coles/woolies as a monopoly food wouldnt be so expensive because the people would rise up against them & they would be out in a blink

Privatisation isnt the answer to all our woes .

 

[Auspm]

Your all a bunch of wishful thinking crackpots :

I mean that in a good way . Your assumptions about most people not understanding the concept i feel is way off the mark.

IMO most people understand the concept but like me think it has more holes in it than not .

Get up on your stools & yell it at the world just dont be dissapointed when nobody stops to listen for anymore than a minute or two until they hear you want to privatise everything ...thats where your going to lose the masses . A few of us have been around long enough to see many things get privatised & turn to shit or the prices go up .

Its been done before & you guys think your onto something new & excititng . :lol:

Im sure if the government owned the coles/woolies as a monopoly food wouldnt be so expensive because the people would rise up against them & they would be out in a blink

Privatisation isnt the answer to all our woes .

Amusing coming from you.

You used to be disgusted with the system yourself, until you decided you couldn't fight it and instead capitulated with it to get your own slice of the action, knowing it was corrupt.

You don't get to make any claims here on any level, you've already given up and a sell out.

The people here are still looking to change the system & don't need your 'advice' on how to join you in defeat and join the parasites in their plunder.

Get out.

 

[renovator]

Your all a bunch of wishful thinking crackpots :

I mean that in a good way . Your assumptions about most people not understanding the concept i feel is way off the mark.

IMO most people understand the concept but like me think it has more holes in it than not .

Get up on your stools & yell it at the world just dont be dissapointed when nobody stops to listen for anymore than a minute or two until they hear you want to privatise everything ...thats where your going to lose the masses . A few of us have been around long enough to see many things get privatised & turn to shit or the prices go up .

Its been done before & you guys think your onto something new & excititng . :lol:

Im sure if the government owned the coles/woolies as a monopoly food wouldnt be so expensive because the people would rise up against them & they would be out in a blink

Privatisation isnt the answer to all our woes .

Amusing coming from you.

You used to be disgusted with the system yourself, until you decided you couldn't fight it and instead capitulated with it to get your own slice of the action, knowing it was corrupt.

You don't get to make any claims here on any level, you've already given up and a sell out.

The people here are still looking to change the system & don't need your 'advice' on how to join you in defeat and join the parasites in their plunder.

Get out.

You again ? .....I thought i could smell something
:
Its not that i couldnt fight it . I realised it was futile & a waste of time & energy .Like you will the day you become an adult .. :lol:

If your looking for change its over there >>>>> :

 

[Ernster]

I'm too getting sick of fighting the system and trying to change the unchangeable.

I have quit listening to Alex Jones :lol:

Anyway keep it up guys, you can't pay people for this kind of entertainment