Is Tax a neccesary evil ?

[dex]

imo it is... how much we should be taxed and on what is another story. It shouldnt be used to grease fat pockets and lazy politicans

 

[trew]

Yep I absolutely think taxes are necessary and everybody should pay all their taxes

and I'd also like to give out a big 'hi there' and 'keep up the good work' to all the the tax office employees reading this thread

 

[Yippe-Ki-Ya]

Have a look at arab countries that dont tax the personnal income of their citizens. See their better infastructure and better everything. Then think about your comment again.

Our mineral deposits will pay for everything and then some if we used them correctly.

+ 1000

Arab nations practically has its oil reserves controlled by their royal families. Hell, the entire country is theirs.

That means for OZ to follow suit, you need to relinquish all controls to the powerful politicians and their families. Then allow them in their boredom or kindness develop nice infrastructures for us. Since they are all powerful now, I can't see a huge need for free speech (like the Arab nations) and while we are at it, maybe introduce censorship and flogging to all the complainers.

So, yeah I guess we could follow suit to Arab nations.

Numnutz - nobody said to take on their religion as well as every aspect of their society.

The point is simply that NO - WE DONT NEED MASSIVE GOVERNMENT/TAXATION TO BE ABLE TO LIVE A DECENT LIFE!

Take on the good points and ignore the bad of these countries.

Big government/taxes is a purely modern western phenomenon and you've truly got sh1t4brains if you reckon it's a nescessity of life!

 

[Yippe-Ki-Ya]

See post #80.

OK B right S park ...The system is your system not the government . & your user pays system would be penniless paying all the contributors back to make any improvements . Theres been untold billions paid already how long do you think it will take to pay that back from the measly user pays contributions you propose ? Thats why i call B ull S hit . Try to keep track of the conversation eh ?

I guess you're missing the point of private people/entities only trading goods and services to customers make something called "profit". This "profit" gives them the ability to call on other goods and services (including labour) available elsewhere in the economy to put to extra uses including investment in new productivity improving infrastructure/technologies with the aim of freeing up yet more scarce resources available to provide yet more goods and services that customers actually want.

In contrast the govt takes goods and services (including labour) and spends it on whatever things it feels like (including digging holes and filling them in again or providing expensive MRI services to Mrs Johnson in Lightening Ridge). This reduces the amount of things physically available to people. Yes, Russia had bread - if you only wanted one loaf and were willing to line up for 8 hours in the snow and accept only one type.

It's useless trying to reason with him and his ilk. They're all zombies... the kind fantasised about by Karl Marx in his fantasyland...

 

[Yippe-Ki-Ya]

When are ya gonna get some bullets for that gattling gun yip the blanks are useless :lol:

Zombies are notoriously hard to kill mate! you're a testament to that fact :lol:

 

[Yippe-Ki-Ya]

The time may be coming when everyone will have to fend for themselves.
Some have already started fending, just in case. :lol:

Yep i know i started fending for myself over 20 years ago & never stopped . Ive already been where a lot of these guys are now & realised its futile . Thats where my signature comes from now i just laugh it off. One day they will realise its futile & time is better spent to secure their future rather than change the system.

Why can you not do both at the same time? In fact, I have found them to be complimentary. The more I advocate the more I learn from others, the better able I am to make money.

I would argue we are entering a liberty bull market. Best to get on board early.

Many government lovers who praise the current big thieving gubmints only do so cos they have vested interests in the current system... :lol:

 

[Yippe-Ki-Ya]

One day they will realise its futile & time is better spent to secure their future rather than change the system.

Change the system?? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: That's the second funniest thing I've heard on this forum!! Renovator you crack me up! :lol: Just imagining folks thinkin they can change the system!! :lol: :lol: aint no system changin happenin. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Are you for real mate?? You think our coercive gubmint system is so superior so as to make it imposible to change - either by evolution of revolution?

Now THATs what's REALLY FUNNY!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Yippe-Ki-Ya]

So what does everyone here want? Do you want a state or do you want anarchy? If you want anarchy then Australia will be overrun in about a week by (insert just about any country you choose here). I don't like government theft any more than the next person.
The fact is, the world runs on a system of different states run by different types of democracies, oligarchies, dictatorships or whatever. That's not going to change any time soon. You can all live in some fantasy land that doesn't have any government interference, but that's all it is - a fantasy.
There's 7 billion people on this planet and do you not think that various groups won't get together and collectively try and make their lives better?
In my dream world it would be an anarchic society but I realise that is just a dream. It's not going to happen.
Meanwhile, in the real world we need a government that provides some necessities including defense, water management, food security and a power grid.
Someone said they wanted policing privatised. What crazy world are you living in?

No numnutz - i want something inbetween - a libertarian society - which has a small and very very very limited gubmint...
Where theft of property and violence by gubmint on peaceful citizens is strictly prohibted by the constitution and a Bill of Rights...
and where the gubmint does NOT HAVE THE POWER to allocate itself more powers - and in so doing become the cancerous growth on society which it has today become.

SAVVVY??

 

[doomsday surprise]

So what does everyone here want? Do you want a state or do you want anarchy? If you want anarchy then Australia will be overrun in about a week by (insert just about any country you choose here). I don't like government theft any more than the next person.
The fact is, the world runs on a system of different states run by different types of democracies, oligarchies, dictatorships or whatever. That's not going to change any time soon. You can all live in some fantasy land that doesn't have any government interference, but that's all it is - a fantasy.
There's 7 billion people on this planet and do you not think that various groups won't get together and collectively try and make their lives better?
In my dream world it would be an anarchic society but I realise that is just a dream. It's not going to happen.
Meanwhile, in the real world we need a government that provides some necessities including defense, water management, food security and a power grid.
Someone said they wanted policing privatised. What crazy world are you living in?

No numnutz - i want something inbetween - a libertarian society - which has a small and very very very limited gubmint...
Where theft of property and violence by gubmint on peaceful citizens is strictly prohibted by the constitution and a Bill of Rights...
and where the gubmint does NOT HAVE THE POWER to allocate itself more powers - and in so doing become the cancerous growth on society which it has today become.

SAVVVY??

Well numbnutz, ain't gonna happen so whaddya gonna do now?

 

[Yippe-Ki-Ya]

So what does everyone here want? Do you want a state or do you want anarchy? If you want anarchy then Australia will be overrun in about a week by (insert just about any country you choose here). I don't like government theft any more than the next person.
The fact is, the world runs on a system of different states run by different types of democracies, oligarchies, dictatorships or whatever. That's not going to change any time soon. You can all live in some fantasy land that doesn't have any government interference, but that's all it is - a fantasy.
There's 7 billion people on this planet and do you not think that various groups won't get together and collectively try and make their lives better?
In my dream world it would be an anarchic society but I realise that is just a dream. It's not going to happen.
Meanwhile, in the real world we need a government that provides some necessities including defense, water management, food security and a power grid.
Someone said they wanted policing privatised. What crazy world are you living in?

No numnutz - i want something inbetween - a libertarian society - which has a small and very very very limited gubmint...
Where theft of property and violence by gubmint on peaceful citizens is strictly prohibted by the constitution and a Bill of Rights...
and where the gubmint does NOT HAVE THE POWER to allocate itself more powers - and in so doing become the cancerous growth on society which it has today become.

SAVVVY??

Well numbnutz, ain't gonna happen so whaddya gonna do now?

not while zombies such as yourself keep the system propped up i'm afraid. but history has shown that a way is always found past (or over) those who strive to perpetuate injustice and stifle liberty.

 

[Yippe-Ki-Ya]

So what does everyone here want?

Those are not the only two choices, but if they were, i'd chose anarchy anytime!

 

[Yippe-Ki-Ya]

Bullldust!

Nobody uses tollbooths anymore.. vehicles simply get automatically scanned at certain points and are then automatically charged as well.
no need for gubmint at all.

Imagine how much sooner we would have had such technology and how simple and refined it would be today if the private sector had owned the roads. Decades ago? Easily.

We did have it decades ago.

It was developed in government funded labs.

bullsht!

gubmint cannot fund anything because it has no income. only what it steals from others

 

[Yippe-Ki-Ya]

When was the last time that invading another country made the citizens of the invading country better off?

You have the most powerful military in the world and it can't subdue a ragtag bands of rebels in either Iraq or Afghanistan. The US government certainly didn't make any money off either enterprise.

The world at large is mostly disapproving of the entire activity. The only reason the US did it was so that a few people could make vast amounts of money because the US was able to borrow a ton of money on the world markets. The time of invasions is coming to an end. They certainly are not monetarily viable.

The only time they work is when the population wants to be liberated. eg. France in WW2

How do you think empires are made? Spain invaded the Americas - made it worthwhile to Spain for at least a hundred years. Britain had an empire the sun never set on - made it pretty worthwhile for them for a few hundred years. Rome had an empire - pretty good for them for a while. The Mongols had an empire - worked for them. Need I go on?

Really?? What a joke...

Britain does not even have control of the mother country anymore mate. They've been invaded and conquered from within and Sh1t4brainsland is heading down that same path at a dizzy speed :lol:

 

[Yippe-Ki-Ya]

Ive been in a liberty bull market since the 70s.

In a liberty bull market since the 70s you reckon? I beg to differ. Nearly every new regulation or law passed by our government reduces someone's freedoms in some way.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wV5kUDVcT0[/youtube]

What he meant is he's in a paradise for zombies... :lol:

 

[Yippe-Ki-Ya]

So what does everyone here want? Do you want a state or do you want anarchy? If you want anarchy then Australia will be overrun in about a week by (insert just about any country you choose here). I don't like government theft any more than the next person.
The fact is, the world runs on a system of different states run by different types of democracies, oligarchies, dictatorships or whatever. That's not going to change any time soon. You can all live in some fantasy land that doesn't have any government interference, but that's all it is - a fantasy.
There's 7 billion people on this planet and do you not think that various groups won't get together and collectively try and make their lives better?
In my dream world it would be an anarchic society but I realise that is just a dream. It's not going to happen.
Meanwhile, in the real world we need a government that provides some necessities including defense, water management, food security and a power grid.
Someone said they wanted policing privatised. What crazy world are you living in?

As posted earlier (page 3), this is the main justification the Minarchist Liberatarians talk about. It doesn't change the basic arguments that everything else besides the provision of public police, courts and military should be privatised. In the absence of a civil war or total system failure where we get the chance to reset, let's privatise everything except most of these functions first and discuss further then. Arguing for a State-controlled army does not justify a state controlled electricity, water, sewerage, education, health, roads, libraries etc. If we can at least move our system to that of a Protectorate then I'd be absolutely stoked.

Even though a protectorate is still too much unnecessary force I'd at least be far more willing to sign up and fight for it compared to the crap we have today.

Sorry, but you have no chance of me (within a governmental system) agreeing to privatised water, electricity or food. Look at ENRON in the USA for electricity privatisation. It's great to have the Monsanto's of the world controlling food production isn't it? Look at Bolivia and see how the world bank and the IMF tried to take over water in that country by giving water rights out to private companies. Privatising rainwater - is that a good thing? Ask the Bolivians.

none of your examples of 'private' are free market capitalism...
you wouldn't know what the true meaning of private is if you stumbled over it :lol:

 

[Yippe-Ki-Ya]

^ Ooh. Great comeback.





(Look I'm learning how to be just like you.)

If ya wanna be like me you need a little bit ofcommonsense :lol: thats all ive got Im not the sharpest tool in the shed but you make me look like a brain surgeon

maybe not , but you're definately the biggest! :lol:

 

[Lovey80]

As posted earlier (page 3), this is the main justification the Minarchist Liberatarians talk about. It doesn't change the basic arguments that everything else besides the provision of public police, courts and military should be privatised. In the absence of a civil war or total system failure where we get the chance to reset, let's privatise everything except most of these functions first and discuss further then. Arguing for a State-controlled army does not justify a state controlled electricity, water, sewerage, education, health, roads, libraries etc. If we can at least move our system to that of a Protectorate then I'd be absolutely stoked.

Even though a protectorate is still too much unnecessary force I'd at least be far more willing to sign up and fight for it compared to the crap we have today.

Sorry, but you have no chance of me (within a governmental system) agreeing to privatised water, electricity or food. Look at ENRON in the USA for electricity privatisation. It's great to have the Monsanto's of the world controlling food production isn't it? Look at Bolivia and see how the world bank and the IMF tried to take over water in that country by giving water rights out to private companies. Privatising rainwater - is that a good thing? Ask the Bolivians.

none of your examples of 'private' are free market capitalism...
you wouldn't know what the true meaning of private is if you stumbled over it :lol:

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with Bordsilver here. IMHO in a country like Australia, things like water, sewage, rail, ports, and to some extent roads are always going to be a monopoly. And therefore should be owned and operated for by some form of government for the benefit of all. Putting these things in private hands is heading for disaster. A free market can not occur with these things, so they should remain "public assets". If a private port owner is taking his clients for a ride, there simply can't be a free market where someone will start up next to him and fulfill the needs at a better price. It is and always will be a government mandated monopoly of a private corporation.... A very big no no for me even though I am very libertarian leaning.

Food on the other hand should never be in the control of the government other than to ensure that monopolies don't form and to a certain extent that foreign interests don't start buying up everything and threaten our future food security.

Health and education sit in a grey area with me. On the one hand we have a democracy and the majority in this country will most likely always vote to keep something close to the system we have today (hopefully we can make it better). So my wants in privatization of such things are irrelevant. However, if how health and education are paid for were completely taken out of the voting publics hands and somehow we could force that taxation was even across the board (flat tax rate). Then I would be totally happy with that. Because you can guarantee that if Jo blo is having the same amount of after Tax free threshold tax taken out of his pay packet as mr rich, that public scrutiny of the public purse expenditure will deliver a far better $ value service than we are seeing in today's system.

 

[jpanggy]

+ 1000

Arab nations practically has its oil reserves controlled by their royal families. Hell, the entire country is theirs.

That means for OZ to follow suit, you need to relinquish all controls to the powerful politicians and their families. Then allow them in their boredom or kindness develop nice infrastructures for us. Since they are all powerful now, I can't see a huge need for free speech (like the Arab nations) and while we are at it, maybe introduce censorship and flogging to all the complainers.

So, yeah I guess we could follow suit to Arab nations.

Numnutz - nobody said to take on their religion as well as every aspect of their society.

The point is simply that NO - WE DONT NEED MASSIVE GOVERNMENT/TAXATION TO BE ABLE TO LIVE A DECENT LIFE!

Take on the good points and ignore the bad of these countries.

Big government/taxes is a purely modern western phenomenon and you've truly got sh1t4brains if you reckon it's a nescessity of life!

Good points and ignore the bad ....

Like burning wood, wanting the heat but hating the smoke that comes with it. Getting the gain without going through the pain. Losing weight without diet, excercise or surgery.

This is along the lines of utopia creation. I surrender, I am not going to argue against or for about this subject at all. You win, whatever point you want to carry across, sure, all good to go. I'm out.

 

[JulieW]

They're from the government and they're here to help you

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...phone-tap-access/story-fn59niix-1226456111348

ATO asks for greater phone-tap access

THE Australian Taxation Office would have tough new powers to access phone taps, text messages and other communications under a plan to safeguard the nation's tax system from fraud.

The ATO's move would protect revenue at a time when Labor has pledged to preserve the federal budget's surplus.

 

[anonmiss]

Thanks to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT58A&list=HL1355034420&feature=mh_lolz
I am an anarcho capitalist who laughs when such debates always come back to the argument of 'yes but we need a small government how else will we have roads.'
How limited has our thinking become when this is the fall back position. Free your mind and ask a different question.
For example with out the government stealing our weath could the capitalist invent a mode of transportation that does not require roads. Wow what a mind blowing idea that is, it would almost be as impossible to imagin as being able to send a letter without needing a government controlled monopoly that sold stamps................