Will Australia follow the Collapse of the USA middle class
- Thread starter errol43
- Start date
I think we're already a fair way down that track.
For example in 1968 my father earned about $70 a week, ran a car, paid for a house about 12k from the CBD, had a non-working wife and 2 kids and managed to save enough for us to rent a holiday house for a 4 week holiday each year.
In the balance, I'm coming to think that the 'good old days' were just that.
For example in 1968 my father earned about $70 a week, ran a car, paid for a house about 12k from the CBD, had a non-working wife and 2 kids and managed to save enough for us to rent a holiday house for a 4 week holiday each year.
In the balance, I'm coming to think that the 'good old days' were just that.
nonrecourse
Well-Known Member
I think that I wasted 55 minutes of my time. America is not Australia and the Australian middle class will have a tough time over the next 20 years because by the time the hard labour stooges are thrown out of office our Federal borrowing will be 400 Billion dollars. It took Howard and Costello 10 years to pay off 96 billion and save another 20 billion, It will take at least 20 years to pay that off.
I think we need to register all voters and have two tax systems. One for the conservatives who are happy to look after themselves and and one for all the labour voters who don't mind paying for all those entitlements they think governments should fund
Kind Regards
non recourse
I think we need to register all voters and have two tax systems. One for the conservatives who are happy to look after themselves and and one for all the labour voters who don't mind paying for all those entitlements they think governments should fund
Kind Regards
non recourse
JulieW said:
Back in 1968 people were living the simple life and had a lot less expenses. These days most families have two cars, spend more money on clothes, eating out, overseas holidays, etc, not to mention all the technology we didn't spend money on back in 1968 (computers, mobile phones, pay TV, Internet connection). All that extra stuff is a lot of extra outgoings. Even so, I suspect wages haven't kept up with inflation.
LOLnonrecourse said:I think we need to register all voters and have two tax systems. One for the conservatives who are happy to look after themselves and and one for all the labour voters who don't mind paying for all those entitlements they think governments should fund
ShinyStuff
New Member
Tough times are coming....
Looks like I had better start looking for a second and third job.
Looks like I had better start looking for a second and third job.
B
Byron
Guest
Gold Kiwi said:
I've heard this argument before and whilst its true, technology imo is by no means the reason why people have fallen behind.
I'd say property prices are the biggest killer of middle Australia combined with huge increases in food, fuel etc, inflation and the effects of "globalisation and free trade". Property prices have shot up much more than the average wage as compared to the 50s/60s.
More lavish lifestyles also play a part but a lot of people do try and save.
Most of the Southern/Eastern Europeans i know that migrated here in the 50s, did extremely well and they tell me its because land and property was comparatively much cheaper. Even working in a factory meant you could pay off your home within 5-10 years. Try doing that today.
Businesses were free of overrestrictive beraucracy and laws and tax collection was lax compared to the draconian "big brother" system of today. As a result small business owners did very well dealing in cash and declaring whatever they felt like.
It was a golden age for most of these migrants. Plentiful work and business opportunities, cheap land, small welfare state and no globalisation.
And they all adored Menzies, who they believe honestly cared for Australia, its people and their prosperity. Sometimes Labor politicians seem hell bent on destroying the things that made this country great.
Only a conservative government can try and shore up the middle class now. How long for, i don't know unless there is a radical shift in politics and attitudes.
Gold Kiwi said:
Yes very true, but that simple lifestyle was also a very fulfilling one. I started University in 1970 just a few years after the Paris and Chicago riots of 68 and I joined the mass protest movements around the world against the Vietnam War and the consumerist lifestyle that the military industrial complex and the banksters were using to seduce the world into a lifestyle of debt. I joined our demonstrations against Vietnam and I watched the 70's and 80's unravel. I wore a badge, popular at the time - "Consume. Be Silent. Die". My parents thought I was a communist and I had been corrupted by University. They aspired to consume. To get 'all that extra stuff'.
I had a scholarship - $21 a week: $8 for a third share in the rent, $5 for a third share in the food, $3 a week for petrol in the car to get to uni and around ($200 Austin that took me 2 years to save for working in the local grocery store) and $5 for lifestyle expenses. (poor student life, but the budget balanced each week).
All the extra expenses taken up by singles, couples and families these days are for amusement and if people really examined their expenses and what those expenses bring them, then they'd spend much less. It is much easier to be 'amused' these days ( to divert the attention of so as to deceive , : to occupy the attention of : absorb).
The world has become anti-intellectual and mass advertising has made the world dissatisfied with what it has. All part of the push into debt. My life fell into shambles and I was seduced by that lifestyle - fashion that goes to the charity bins after 2 wears, eating out every night etc etc. It's a very hard lifestyle to resist. As my economics teacher taught, expenditure rises with income. If debt is disguised as income that rule still applies.
So I agree Gold Kiwi, 1968 was a simpler life, and expenses were smaller because there was 'less' to spend your money on, but also income disparity was smaller and if you purchased a pair of shoes they were good for a year or two, not a few weeks, and you weren't constantly being urged, in full colour, to keep up with the Jones's. It wasn't a lot more inconvenient to refer to the an encyclopaedia rather than a quick surf to wikipedia, but yes, technology has made life better. But along with the technology has come the negative side of it, a world burning through its resources so we can get a new flat screen every few years, send a car to landfill when the 5 year guarantee runs out, and eat oranges from flown in from California rather than railed in from the Riverina.
I see a lot of 'the traditional' values espoused here on SS. It is not too hard to get back to them. 'to change the world, first change yourself', as the wise ones say. Soon that will be an imperative imho, and unfortunately I think that we have lost our moral compass, and there will be a lot of pain in finding it again, including the destruction of the middle class, because what that really means is a modern version of feudalism.
Dogmatix
Active Member
JulieW said:
Like Affluenza:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkiR_q-thjg[/youtube]
Edit: Although thanks to technology, we have the internet, which allows us access to so much information that we really don't have any excuses for not knowing the truth - if we want to find it that is.
Dogmatix. Yes, I think that most of here are a little different from the norm..We save by stacking silver and not fiat and some even stack RE but not many stack fiat unless their saving up to buy more fiat.
Less consumer goods and more silver seems to be the motto on this site.
Regards Errol 43
Less consumer goods and more silver seems to be the motto on this site.
Regards Errol 43
G
Guest
Guest
FYI
This comes up on SS every few months.
All things considered, Australians are being progressively nailed to the wall.
Housing/Shelter (being the biggest investment most Australians will ever make) being murderous on the bottom line and by progression, our standard of living.
Average wages up 27 times since 1960, average shelter costs, 72.
'nuff said.
Don't get distracted by this typical bullshit 'iPod generation' line.
It's merely a smokescreen.
Across the board on even the essentials, we're being absolutely nailed to the wall and the figures show it clearly. Some worse than others, but you can see for yourself even if you didn't buy one consumerist luxury good at all and focused on basic living costs alone... we are royally screwed.
So when the older gens want to throw out the 'in my day' line, I want to garrote them.
It's all bullshit spouted by vested interests in an effort to make you feel like the reason why the cost of living is going to hell is because it's YOUR fault because of your big screen TV and ipod fetish.
Utter BS.
This comes up on SS every few months.
All things considered, Australians are being progressively nailed to the wall.
Housing/Shelter (being the biggest investment most Australians will ever make) being murderous on the bottom line and by progression, our standard of living.
Average wages up 27 times since 1960, average shelter costs, 72.
'nuff said.
Don't get distracted by this typical bullshit 'iPod generation' line.
It's merely a smokescreen.
Across the board on even the essentials, we're being absolutely nailed to the wall and the figures show it clearly. Some worse than others, but you can see for yourself even if you didn't buy one consumerist luxury good at all and focused on basic living costs alone... we are royally screwed.
So when the older gens want to throw out the 'in my day' line, I want to garrote them.
It's all bullshit spouted by vested interests in an effort to make you feel like the reason why the cost of living is going to hell is because it's YOUR fault because of your big screen TV and ipod fetish.
Utter BS.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/house-costs-take-top-spot/story-e6frf7jo-1225852514346
Assume article was 2010
POG 1960 ~40/oz
http://www.globalspeculator.com.au/Price-of-Gold-1960-1982.html
POG 2010 ~1200
http://www.kitco.com/scripts/hist_charts/monthly_graphs.plx
Assume article was 2010
POG 1960 ~40/oz
http://www.globalspeculator.com.au/Price-of-Gold-1960-1982.html
POG 2010 ~1200
http://www.kitco.com/scripts/hist_charts/monthly_graphs.plx
Those VHS/Betamax, CRT TVs, Discmans etc were much more expensive than the current day equivalent.
Non-reputable source for VHS: https://encrypted.google.com/url?q=...EQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNE2XDnKNoO7gBJ3eKRKrGJRlxhnVw
CRT: http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1147221
etc
Those 'old folk' are a bunch of jokers if they think we give a shyt what they 'did back in their day'.
Non-reputable source for VHS: https://encrypted.google.com/url?q=...EQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNE2XDnKNoO7gBJ3eKRKrGJRlxhnVw
CRT: http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1147221
etc
Those 'old folk' are a bunch of jokers if they think we give a shyt what they 'did back in their day'.
fishball said:
But they are more than just electronics, CRT TV is a theft deterrent on its own (back breaking weight).
VHS/Betamax players can kill a person if it hits their head.
A worthy investment I must say, if anything we should make our gadgets heavier again.
Think of the ego boost when you put a brick inside your pants.
G
Guest
Guest
To reiterate above, I don't want to start a flame generational debate/war here.
Just wanted to point out that even as a percentage, the cost of living on the 'basics' that we assumed were standard 50 years ago compared to day have become crippling expensive for most household budgets.
Up 20% here, up 50% there... combined it amounts to a standard of living that requires FAR more time and labour investment today than it did years ago just to tread water, yet alone any thought of 'getting ahead'.
Whilst there's the arguement that technology and expectations are certainly higher, I would also point out that proportionate taxes have increased many fold as well.
There is absolutely an abolishment of the middle class underway across the entire western world and it's been going that way for some time.
I am one of the working 'poor' of this nation in that my taxes alone could probably support an average family (with a little government assistance) get by, but cannot hope to afford the simple status quo standards my parent's generation had before like affordable shelter or affordable education and healthcare.
It all amounts to the same thing really - expectation of more and more effort for less and less reward and the growing anger against us as people when we protest the nature of our growing oppression and serfdom status.
This will undoubtedly end very badly for many people, even those who 'believe' they are 'wealthy' and beyond the system right now. The feudal lords will allow very few to share the spoils of this economic and social war long term I believe.
Just wanted to point out that even as a percentage, the cost of living on the 'basics' that we assumed were standard 50 years ago compared to day have become crippling expensive for most household budgets.
Up 20% here, up 50% there... combined it amounts to a standard of living that requires FAR more time and labour investment today than it did years ago just to tread water, yet alone any thought of 'getting ahead'.
Whilst there's the arguement that technology and expectations are certainly higher, I would also point out that proportionate taxes have increased many fold as well.
There is absolutely an abolishment of the middle class underway across the entire western world and it's been going that way for some time.
I am one of the working 'poor' of this nation in that my taxes alone could probably support an average family (with a little government assistance) get by, but cannot hope to afford the simple status quo standards my parent's generation had before like affordable shelter or affordable education and healthcare.
It all amounts to the same thing really - expectation of more and more effort for less and less reward and the growing anger against us as people when we protest the nature of our growing oppression and serfdom status.
This will undoubtedly end very badly for many people, even those who 'believe' they are 'wealthy' and beyond the system right now. The feudal lords will allow very few to share the spoils of this economic and social war long term I believe.
Not wanting to enter the debate but I also not being able to help myself here's my two cents
Mobile phones are not a luxury especially for a job seeker.
The internet is not a luxury for job seekers. Sure they could go to a public library or use a smart phone but neither of those options are optimal. Also I wouldn't be wanting to put private information through a public computer
Currently our cities and towns are set up for motorists. This means that to get almost anywhere (shops, schools, jobs, friends & family) you need a car. In a household each adult almost certainly needs a car. Public transport in Australia is pathetic by first world (ex- US) standards
Mobile phones are not a luxury especially for a job seeker.
The internet is not a luxury for job seekers. Sure they could go to a public library or use a smart phone but neither of those options are optimal. Also I wouldn't be wanting to put private information through a public computer
Currently our cities and towns are set up for motorists. This means that to get almost anywhere (shops, schools, jobs, friends & family) you need a car. In a household each adult almost certainly needs a car. Public transport in Australia is pathetic by first world (ex- US) standards
ShinyStuff
New Member
But that is the point of the above video.
Dual income will soon (already is) a necessity to simply have the same standard of living that our grandparents had.
I think though that many people need to think outside the box to see the way through the control. Who says you must have two cars? Who says you must have the new phone? Who says you must do this this and that?
My grandfather (for relaxation) used to potter in his shed, grow plants and listen to the wireless while seated on a comfortable chair.
So, I need to readjust my own expectations, I presume others do too.
Shiny.
Dual income will soon (already is) a necessity to simply have the same standard of living that our grandparents had.
I think though that many people need to think outside the box to see the way through the control. Who says you must have two cars? Who says you must have the new phone? Who says you must do this this and that?
My grandfather (for relaxation) used to potter in his shed, grow plants and listen to the wireless while seated on a comfortable chair.
So, I need to readjust my own expectations, I presume others do too.
Shiny.