Transfer to more libertarian system?

[renovator]

^ I have thought about it. I suggest you think about the real implications of restricting private property rights before advocating the Philippine/Indonesian/Malaysian/Zimbabwe/North Korean etc system given that it seems to be working so well for them.

...and - as you should well know - owning lands in foreign countries is not all that it is cracked up to be unless you have a local presence. If all foreigners clambered to buy all the land, its price would rise and rise until it wasn't worth buying. Simple supply and demand.

Forgot to say that owning land is well ....umm owning land not cracked up to be what ? what are you on about now something else you know absolutely nothing about obviously .

Simply that if I have money to spend, it's generally better to own local land than foreign land - not least because of the presence of government's but also because although certain land has value it is the way that it is used that is the true worth and many effective uses depend on a good understanding of the local environment and a local presence.

Its better to own local land not least because of the presence of governments ? :lol; arent you the one saying governments are shit ? now theyre good ... flip ......flop !!!!!! ......priceless

 

[renovator]

^ I have thought about it. I suggest you think about the real implications of restricting private property rights before advocating the Philippine/Indonesian/Malaysian/Zimbabwe/North Korean etc system given that it seems to be working so well for them.

...and - as you should well know - owning lands in foreign countries is not all that it is cracked up to be unless you have a local presence. If all foreigners clambered to buy all the land, its price would rise and rise until it wasn't worth buying. Simple supply and demand.

Forgot to say that owning land is well ....umm owning land not cracked up to be what ? what are you on about now something else you know absolutely nothing about obviously .

Without a respect for property rights there can be no liberty.

Who says theres no respect for property rights here ? i didnt i said there is & have heard many stories where it stands the test for the citizens where unscrupulous foregners try to get it & failed because the local property rights are enforced .

 

[capt.sparrow]

reno - i believe bordsilver was saying that because of the presense of local government that it's probably a tad easier dealing with them if you're a local.

He wasn't endorsing them - they're still a roadblock to freedom and development - whether you're a local or foreigner.

 

[bordsilver]

Forgot to say that owning land is well ....umm owning land not cracked up to be what ? what are you on about now something else you know absolutely nothing about obviously .

Simply that if I have money to spend, it's generally better to own local land than foreign land - not least because of the presence of government's but also because although certain land has value it is the way that it is used that is the true worth and many effective uses depend on a good understanding of the local environment and a local presence.

Its better to own local land not least because of the presence of governments ? :lol; arent you the one saying governments are shit ? now theyre good ... flip ......flop !!!!!! ......priceless

:lol: Is that the best you've got? And it was AFTER you said it.

I didn't say the Government-related barriers to entry are good, I said there are barriers that prevent foreign bidders. So it is fully consistent since the b**tard gubbmints are forcing the price of our land down as they are less attractive to foreigners and create unnecessary transaction costs! They are stealing $$$ from the land holders retirement funds! They are reducing knowledge transfer and consequently impoverishing our nation. [Is that better ]

 

[capt.sparrow]

Forgot to say that owning land is well ....umm owning land not cracked up to be what ? what are you on about now something else you know absolutely nothing about obviously .

Without a respect for property rights there can be no liberty.

Who says theres no respect for property rights here ? i didnt i said there is & have heard many stories where it stands the test for the citizens where unscrupulous foregners try to get it & failed because the local property rights are enforced .

You misunderstand my interpretation of what property rights actually mean.
It means that no other person or entity (including and especially the state) can interfere with your property rights.
This includes - but is not limited to - your rights as a property owner to sell your property to WHOMEVER YOU SO WISH to sell it to.
Since government has stripped property owners of that very basic right that pretty much means that property rights there are more of an illusion than a reality.

 

[capt.sparrow]

Forgot to say that owning land is well ....umm owning land not cracked up to be what ? what are you on about now something else you know absolutely nothing about obviously .

Without a respect for property rights there can be no liberty.

Who says theres no respect for property rights here ? i didnt i said there is & have heard many stories where it stands the test for the citizens where unscrupulous foregners try to get it & failed because the local property rights are enforced .

I'm assuming you're a local then and not an unscrupulous foreigner?

 

[Mr.G]

Understand that fear & normalcy bias would have people who understand the corrupt nature of the system defend it, under the guise of an even worse disaster awaiting if you do not.
.....
You will either fight for personal liberty and gather courage to face the unknown, or you will surrender your freedom to the establishment and the whim of others.
.....
At what point, what trigger, will have you pause to consider that perhaps liberty is worth fighting for?

Thanks for the clip, entertaining though a little too much along the fantasy / alarmist paradigm for me. It's a little like the Matrix concept, suggesting that we are slaves to our own ignorance.

I do think that its a bit condescending to to suggest that people, especially in Australia, do not have the option to choose their own form of liberty. The fact that I'm free to say, read and listen to any ideas I like, practice any religion, eat freely, work hard or drop out if i like, mix with whoever and whenever, freely procreate or abstain, follow mainstream or alternate philosophies and ways of life all adds ups in my opinion to simply imply that we do live in a nation where personal freedom is available. To say that we in Australia are not free is a bit ungrateful.

Yeah sure there is a 'system' in place that creates some loose boundaries for people to live within. This is our 'environment', and as has always been the case, those able to adapt to it will be the most successful. If you're life is not going the way you like, perhaps its you that needs to change, rather then shaking up the rest of the world to satisfy your need for further liberty.

What are some of these further liberties that you seek?

 

[capt.sparrow]

Understand that fear & normalcy bias would have people who understand the corrupt nature of the system defend it, under the guise of an even worse disaster awaiting if you do not.
.....
You will either fight for personal liberty and gather courage to face the unknown, or you will surrender your freedom to the establishment and the whim of others.
.....
At what point, what trigger, will have you pause to consider that perhaps liberty is worth fighting for?

Thanks for the clip, entertaining though a little too much along the fantasy / alarmist paradigm for me. It's a little like the Matrix concept, suggesting that we are slaves to our own ignorance.

I do think that its a bit condescending to to suggest that people, especially in Australia, do not have the option to choose their own form of liberty. The fact that I'm free to say, read and listen to any ideas I like, practice any religion, eat freely, work hard or drop out if i like, mix with whoever and whenever, freely procreate or abstain, follow mainstream or alternate philosophies and ways of life all adds ups in my opinion to simply imply that we do live in a nation where personal freedom is available. To say that we in Australia are not free is a bit ungrateful.

Yeah sure there is a 'system' in place that creates some loose boundaries for people to live within. This is our 'environment', and as has always been the case, those able to adapt to it will be the most successful. If you're life is not going the way you like, perhaps its you that needs to change, rather then shaking up the rest of the world to satisfy your need for further liberty.

What are some of these further liberties that you seek?

Freedom from government violence or the threat of violence would be a good start!

Here is a post from another thread which I find very enlightening, and which opens up one's mind to how things should work

Excerpt from the start of Part I
The libertarian creed rests upon one central axiom: that no man or group of men may aggress against the person or property of anyone else. This may be called the "nonaggression axiom." "Aggression" is defined as the initiation of the use or threat of physical violence against the person or property of anyone else. Aggression is therefore synonymous with invasion.

If no man may aggress against another; if, in short, everyone has the absolute right to be "free" from aggression, then this at once implies that the libertarian stands foursquare for what are generally known as "civil liberties": the freedom to speak, publish, assemble, and to engage in such "victimless crimes" as pornography, sexual deviation, and prostitution (which the libertarian does not regard as "crimes" at all, since he defines a "crime" as violent invasion of someone else's person or property). Furthermore, he regards conscription as slavery on a massive scale. And since war, especially modern war, entails the mass slaughter of civilians, the libertarian regards such conflicts as mass murder and therefore totally illegitimate.

All of these positions are now considered "leftist" on the contemporary ideological scale. On the other hand, since the libertarian also opposes invasion of the rights of private property, this also means that he just as emphatically opposes government interference with property rights or with the free-market economy through controls, regulations, subsidies, or prohibitions. For if every individual has the right to his own property without having to suffer aggressive depredation, then he also has the right to give away his property (bequest and inheritance) and to exchange it for the property of others (free contract and the free market economy) without interference. The libertarian favors the right to unrestricted private property and free exchange; hence, a system of "laissez-faire capitalism."

In current terminology again, the libertarian position on property and economics would be called "extreme right wing." But the libertarian sees no inconsistency in being "leftist" on some issues and "rightist" on others. On the contrary, he sees his own position as virtually the only consistent one, consistent on behalf of the liberty of every individual. For how can the leftist be opposed to the violence of war and conscription while at the same time supporting the violence of taxation and government control? And how can the rightist trumpet his devotion to private property and free enterprise while at the same time favoring war, conscription, and the outlawing of noninvasive activities and practices that he deems immoral? And how can the rightist favor a free market while seeing nothing amiss in the vast subsidies, distortions, and unproductive inefficiencies involved in the military-industrial complex?

While opposing any and all private or group aggression against the rights of person and property, the libertarian sees that throughout history and into the present day, there has been one central, dominant, and overriding aggressor upon all of these rights: the State. In contrast to all other thinkers, left, right, or in-between, the libertarian refuses to give the State the moral sanction to commit actions that almost everyone agrees would be immoral, illegal, and criminal if committed by any person or group in society. The libertarian, in short, insists on applying the general moral law to everyone, and makes no special exemptions for any person or group.

 

[bordsilver]

What are some of these further liberties that you seek?

For me, two of the key biggies that are being actively attacked are:
- Freedom to not treat adults as children when it comes to matters such as alcohol, cigarettes, gambling and other forms of pleasure.
- Freedom to cause "offence" or "insult" someone (ie repeal Section 18C along with the planned Workplace Discrimination laws) - see THIS THREAD

Others off the top of my head include:
- Freedom to have euthanasia
- Freedom to have abortions for any reason (preserving the life of the foetus if possible and someone else is willing to pay, of course)
- Freedom to pay surrogate mothers
- Freedom to sell your organs
- Freedom to opt out of the cost of public health and choose your own providers
- Freedom to opt out of the cost of public education and choose your own providers
- Freedom to opt out of the cost of the social security system and choose your own providers
- True freedom of the press
- Freedom not to have my internet use data retained for 2 years with ASIO having the power to access, upload and download files onto my computer
- Freedom to buy and sell raw milk
- Freedom to manufacture products from hemp
- Freedom to choose which type of light bulbs I can buy
- Freedom to bear arms
- Freedom to build a size and style house on the land that you "own"
- Freedom to conduct an appropriate "business activity" from a "residential" property
- Freedom to determine how many people can occupy certain premises

Some of the above are in different states of play (ie actual, planned, or restrictions are getting worse not better) and can differ in different jurisdictions. No doubt that I could add a lot more if I thought about it but that's a decent start.

Edit: And then of course is the real BIGGIE which is why many of us are stackers:
- Freedom to create and use competing currencies within Australia - ie. repeal the legal tender laws and capital gains taxes on money (at the least)

 

[renovator]

Without a respect for property rights there can be no liberty.

Who says theres no respect for property rights here ? i didnt i said there is & have heard many stories where it stands the test for the citizens where unscrupulous foregners try to get it & failed because the local property rights are enforced .

I'm assuming you're a local then and not an unscrupulous foreigner?

Nope im an aussie but my missus is a local Being an aussie & nearly 50 ive seen oz change for the worse as far as freedoms are concerned & over the last couple of years enjoyed the freedoms aussies once had . Being old enough to remember the seventies a lot has changed there & not for the better i might add . .Growing up in the western suburbs of sydney in the 70s was virtually lawless to a point & i feel the same freedoms here hence why i came for a 3 week holiday to visit & have stayed.

Theres lots of foreigners here & all say the same things about the freedom & lack of big brother type intervention

 

[renovator]

What are some of these further liberties that you seek?

For me, two of the key biggies that are being actively attacked are:
- Freedom to not treat adults as children when it comes to matters such as alcohol, cigarettes, gambling and other forms of pleasure.
- Freedom to cause "offence" or "insult" someone (ie repeal Section 18C along with the planned Workplace Discrimination laws) - see THIS THREAD

Others off the top of my head include:
- Freedom to have euthanasia
- Freedom to have abortions for any reason (preserving the life of the foetus if possible and someone else is willing to pay, of course)
- Freedom to pay surrogate mothers
- Freedom to sell your organs
- Freedom to opt out of the cost of public health
- Freedom to opt out of the cost of public education
- Freedom to opt out of the cost of the social security system
- True freedom of the press
- Freedom not to have my internet use data retained for 2 years with ASIO having the power to access, upload and download files onto my computer
- Freedom to buy and sell raw milk
- Freedom to bear arms
- Freedom to build a size and style house on the land that you "own"
- Freedom to conduct an appropriate "business activity" from a "residential" property
- Freedom to determine how many people can occupy certain premises

Some of the above are in different states of play (ie actual, planned, or restrictions are getting worse not better) and can differ in different jurisdictions. No doubt that I could add a lot more if I thought about it but that's a decent start.

euthanasia ,sell your organs opt out of public health & schooling & social security system .......

 

[bordsilver]

euthanasia ,sell your organs opt out of public health & schooling & social security system .......

Yep. Wouldn't it be awesome?

- YOU are given the choice of what you can do with YOUR own body. (Goes hand in hand with freedom to smoke, drink and use drugs or cross the road without your mother holding your hand.)
- YOU are given the choice of using YOUR income in the ways that best suit YOUR way of life and personal beliefs. If you WANT the government supplied version you can have it. If you don't you can opt out. I am simply asking for the choice like I can choose whether to use Telstra or Optus. We can (sort of) home school now, yet we are forced to pay for the school system. We can (sort of) use private hospitals now, yet we are forced to cross subsidise the public system. We are forced to pay for the social security system now even if we are self sufficient enough throughout our entire lives that we never ever need it.

 

[capt.sparrow]

Who says theres no respect for property rights here ? i didnt i said there is & have heard many stories where it stands the test for the citizens where unscrupulous foregners try to get it & failed because the local property rights are enforced .

I'm assuming you're a local then and not an unscrupulous foreigner?

Nope im an aussie but my missus is a local Being an aussie & nearly 50 ive seen oz change for the worse as far as freedoms are concerned & over the last couple of years enjoyed the freedoms aussies once had . Being old enough to remember the seventies a lot has changed there & not for the better i might add . .Growing up in the western suburbs of sydney in the 70s was virtually lawless to a point & i feel the same freedoms here hence why i came for a 3 week holiday to visit & have stayed.

Theres lots of foreigners here & all say the same things about the freedom & lack of big brother type intervention

Now we're talking the same language. I'm just curious though why you seem to laud all manner of government meddling and restrictions in your other posts?
It seems at odds with the spirit of this post?

 

[hawkeye]

Nope im an aussie but my missus is a local Being an aussie & nearly 50 ive seen oz change for the worse as far as freedoms are concerned & over the last couple of years enjoyed the freedoms aussies once had . Being old enough to remember the seventies a lot has changed there & not for the better i might add . .Growing up in the western suburbs of sydney in the 70s was virtually lawless to a point & i feel the same freedoms here hence why i came for a 3 week holiday to visit & have stayed.

Theres lots of foreigners here & all say the same things about the freedom & lack of big brother type intervention

This is an interesting conversation, that I've mostly missed.

So Reno, forgetting discussions about the why's and wherefore's one country is different from another in freedoms, infrastructure, etc, which would you say you value more? The good infrastructure of Oz with the Big Brother taxes, surveillance, etc or the relative freedom of where you are now?

You said you moved there so I think I might have the answer, but don't want to presume. Genuine question, because I thought what you said was interesting.

 

[hawkeye]

What are some of these further liberties that you seek?

Further to what Bordsilver has said

Freedom to not have to pay for the destruction of lives and property in other countries. I know it's all on TV and not actually happening in Australia, but some of us care and don't like being forced to pay for killing.
Freedom to in financial affairs, rather than being forced into the corrupt crony banking system that currently exists here.
Freedom to not have to pay ridiculous amounts of tax, a huge percentage of which essentially goes up in smoke in one way or another.
Freedom to opt out of superannuation.

I could go on and on...

 

[Big A.D.]

You don't think that big coercive government lends itself to massive corruption?

No.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

Top 10 Least Corrupt Countries:

Denmark
Finland
New Zealand
Sweden
Singapore
Switzerland
Australia
Norway
Canada
Netherlands

All of these countries have "big" governments.

 

[renovator]

I'm assuming you're a local then and not an unscrupulous foreigner?

Nope im an aussie but my missus is a local Being an aussie & nearly 50 ive seen oz change for the worse as far as freedoms are concerned & over the last couple of years enjoyed the freedoms aussies once had . Being old enough to remember the seventies a lot has changed there & not for the better i might add . .Growing up in the western suburbs of sydney in the 70s was virtually lawless to a point & i feel the same freedoms here hence why i came for a 3 week holiday to visit & have stayed.

Theres lots of foreigners here & all say the same things about the freedom & lack of big brother type intervention

Now we're talking the same language. I'm just curious though why you seem to laud all manner of government meddling and restrictions in your other posts?
It seems at odds with the spirit of this post?

Like i said earlier im far from a gubmint lover . It seems to me most posts are for self interest instead of the collective of society which takes in the disadvantaged the poor & disabled ;

Until someone comes in with a down the middle approach we might aswell stick with what weve got . At least most people have a decent quality of life .

Most of the things i hear are concerning the costs of things , wasted expenditure ,free markets etc etc . You can always make more money but once your freedom is gone no amount of money cant buy it back

 

[renovator]

Nope im an aussie but my missus is a local Being an aussie & nearly 50 ive seen oz change for the worse as far as freedoms are concerned & over the last couple of years enjoyed the freedoms aussies once had . Being old enough to remember the seventies a lot has changed there & not for the better i might add . .Growing up in the western suburbs of sydney in the 70s was virtually lawless to a point & i feel the same freedoms here hence why i came for a 3 week holiday to visit & have stayed.

Theres lots of foreigners here & all say the same things about the freedom & lack of big brother type intervention

This is an interesting conversation, that I've mostly missed.

So Reno, forgetting discussions about the why's and wherefore's one country is different from another in freedoms, infrastructure, etc, which would you say you value more? The good infrastructure of Oz with the Big Brother taxes, surveillance, etc or the relative freedom of where you are now?

You said you moved there so I think I might have the answer, but don't want to presume. Genuine question, because I thought what you said was interesting.

while im relatively young & healthy here is good but if i had medical problems or wasnt financially independent already i would choose australia in a blink .

To see so many people with university educations trying to get work abroad to give their family a better life is heartbreaking .One of my helpers gives most of his pay to his younger brother to pay for his uni course so he can get the chance to work OS While he gets food on credit at the shop to eat .. That family spirit is one of the attractions here .

I consider myself lucky to have been born into a first world country even with all the shit that comes with it . I had the choice to make it happen some never had & will never have that choice

I felt like that before i came here . something some of you guys dont appreciate

 

[renovator]

euthanasia ,sell your organs opt out of public health & schooling & social security system .......

Yep. Wouldn't it be awesome?

- YOU are given the choice of what you can do with YOUR own body. (Goes hand in hand with freedom to smoke, drink and use drugs or cross the road without your mother holding your hand.)
- YOU are given the choice of using YOUR income in the ways that best suit YOUR way of life and personal beliefs. If you WANT the government supplied version you can have it. If you don't you can opt out. I am simply asking for the choice like I can choose whether to use Telstra or Optus. We can (sort of) home school now, yet we are forced to pay for the school system. We can (sort of) use private hospitals now, yet we are forced to cross subsidise the public system. We are forced to pay for the social security system now even if we are self sufficient enough throughout our entire lives that we never ever need it.

Yep it would be awesome until you died in a car crash & a family member got sick & needed medical attention or an education & they told you to piss off because your not around paying for it anymore . . or your half cured & they kick you out because your contributions ran out . Have some foresight .theres thousands of different scenarios that are catered for in the current system that your system would fail . Unless of course they adopt your organ selling then your daughter could go through life with 1 kidney because she had to pay for mums surgery . ........ Yep totally awesome

 

[renovator]

You don't think that big coercive government lends itself to massive corruption?

No.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

Top 10 Least Corrupt Countries:

Denmark
Finland
New Zealand
Sweden
Singapore
Switzerland
Australia
Norway
Canada
Netherlands

All of these countries have "big" governments.

dont let the truth get in the way of a good story lol