The Biggest Loser

mmm....shiney! said:
hawkeye said:
That's why I think more than anything we need a re-think about what exactly we are trying to achieve in our market economy. Do we want everyone working all the time for ever decreasing value of money earnt or do we want the necessities and luxuries of life to be as cheap as possible for the maximum number of people? And if that means people don't need to work as much, then why is that a bad thing?

You sound like my teachers in the 70's.

"You should learn a musical instrument because when you are older you will have so much spare time for leisure because technology will make everything so much easier, you'll need to have a skill to fill in your leisure time."

People not wanting to work as much is a bad thing, it's a sickness, it's the mantra of the entitlement cadre, it's bullshit. If you want something, you should strive for it. It only comes easy if someone else is being screwed.

No, I'm talking about the brain-dead 40 hour week that everyone is supposed to work for the rest of time, despite the fact that machines are doing most of the hard physical work now. Anything that is repetitive will be taken over by robots, that's just a fact.

You can work the hardest of anyone, but if you are getting low wages for it, then what is the point?

There are plenty of people around the world who are well off without working all year long. Casual and part-time work just generally makes more sense in today's world. Doesn't matter where I've worked, I can tell you most full-time employees don't have enough work to fill in their days.

The only reason it's still so prevalent is because we are stuck in this paradigm. The government and it's banking system is based on assumptions made 60 years ago and there have been no fundamental changes and it just isn't working anymore. It made sense at the end of WW2, but so many institutions have been built up around it that benefit from it that it seems we needed the crisis to force the necessary changes.

Don't get stuck thinking the world will be pretty much as you always knew it. People who do that end up getting thought of as dinosaurs.

mmm....shiney! said:
Karl Marx and I see eye-to-eye on one thing - our work defines us.

Wage slave thinking. But Marx was fond of that. The whole worker's paradise thing. In fact, that's what we largely got in Western society. A type of Marxian socialism.
 
^ I was going to say something similar but you put it much better than I would of I think.

There's also a big difference between filling your hours with work because you enjoy it and/or are striving for something better versus filling yous hours with mind numbing, very repetitative and/or dangerous work because it is necessary. I see far more of the former as societies get richer.
 
hawkeye said:
mmm....shiney! said:
hawkeye said:
That's why I think more than anything we need a re-think about what exactly we are trying to achieve in our market economy. Do we want everyone working all the time for ever decreasing value of money earnt or do we want the necessities and luxuries of life to be as cheap as possible for the maximum number of people? And if that means people don't need to work as much, then why is that a bad thing?

You sound like my teachers in the 70's.

"You should learn a musical instrument because when you are older you will have so much spare time for leisure because technology will make everything so much easier, you'll need to have a skill to fill in your leisure time."

People not wanting to work as much is a bad thing, it's a sickness, it's the mantra of the entitlement cadre, it's bullshit. If you want something, you should strive for it. It only comes easy if someone else is being screwed.

No, I'm talking about the brain-dead 40 hour week that everyone is supposed to work for the rest of time, despite the fact that machines are doing most of the hard physical work now. Anything that is repetitive will be taken over by robots, that's just a fact.

You can work the hardest of anyone, but if you are getting low wages for it, then what is the point?

There are plenty of people around the world who are well off without working all year long. Casual and part-time work just generally makes more sense in today's world. Doesn't matter where I've worked, I can tell you most full-time employees don't have enough work to fill in their days.

The only reason it's still so prevalent is because we are stuck in this paradigm. The government and it's banking system is based on assumptions made 60 years ago and there have been no fundamental changes and it just isn't working anymore. It made sense at the end of WW2, but so many institutions have been built up around it that benefit from it that it seems we needed the crisis to force the necessary changes.

Don't get stuck thinking the world will be pretty much as you always knew it. People who do that end up getting thought of as dinosaurs.

mmm....shiney! said:
Karl Marx and I see eye-to-eye on one thing - our work defines us.

Wage slave thinking. But Marx was fond of that. The whole worker's paradise thing. In fact, that's what we largely got in Western society. A type of Marxian socialism.

No actually you are talking shit hawkeye.

There are so many stupid things wrong with your post that I can't begin to address them and I am absolutely aghast that you would even think that way, and bordsilver thanked you for that? FFS.

But I'll give it a go. Just give me time. :mad:
 
hawkeye said:
No, I'm talking about the brain-dead 40 hour week that everyone is supposed to work for the rest of time

Who does that? Most workers I would argue. And you value that sort of work less just because it happens to you to be brain dead????? What constitutes brain dead work hawkeye? Essential services, waitressing, storeman and packers, chefs, grader operators??? Are you saying everyone should be a nuclear scientist or a sculptor?? What would happen if no one was available to do the brain dead 40 hour week?? Answer: your world would collapse hawkeye. Tomorrow. You're lucky we have little yellow men in factories in Asia doing most of the brain dead work for you so you can buy cheap plasma TV's and colour depth sounders.


hawkeye said:
You can work the hardest of anyone, but if you are getting low wages for it, then what is the point?
Are you a member of the Entitlement Cadre? The point is you work as hard as you can in your position given your skills level and experience, if that doesn't satisfy you, move on.

hawkeye said:
There are plenty of people around the world who are well off without working all year long.
Who are they hawkeye? Amazonian Indians? The Innuit? The Rothschilds?

hawkeye said:
The only reason it's still so prevalent is because we are stuck in this paradigm. The government and it's banking system is based on assumptions made 60 years ago and there have been no fundamental changes and it just isn't working anymore. It made sense at the end of WW2, but so many institutions have been built up around it that benefit from it that it seems we needed the crisis to force the necessary changes.
My paradigm is completely opposite to that which you seem to be preaching in your post. I'm not making any assumptions, you are though, talking about brain-dead occupations, working hard and not getting any reward and how there are so many people around the world who are so better off who don't have to work so hard compared to us I presume.

hawkeye said:
Don't get stuck thinking the world will be pretty much as you always knew it. People who do that end up getting thought of as dinosaurs.

At what point did I say the world will remain pretty much as I knew it, say when I was a child in the 70's? I didn't.


hawkeye said:
mmm....shiney! said:
Karl Marx and I see eye-to-eye on one thing - our work defines us.

Wage slave thinking. But Marx was fond of that. The whole worker's paradise thing. In fact, that's what we largely got in Western society. A type of Marxian socialism.

Go to any party, and the first thing that someone asks you is: "What do you do for a living?". Marx nailed it, but we can't use that four letter word here with all these Austrian Economists can we???

There are few things in our lives that give us pleasure, paramount amongst them are our relationships with our loved ones and our work. Yet you seem too easily willing to dismiss one of the two, our work. Why? Just because it was one of the things that one of our most influential philosophers nailed correctly for once? Just because Marx said it, it must be wrong.

Your post was one of the most disappointing things I've ever read.
 
mmm....shiney! said:
hawkeye said:
mmm....shiney! said:
You sound like my teachers in the 70's.

"You should learn a musical instrument because when you are older you will have so much spare time for leisure because technology will make everything so much easier, you'll need to have a skill to fill in your leisure time."

People not wanting to work as much is a bad thing, it's a sickness, it's the mantra of the entitlement cadre, it's bullshit. If you want something, you should strive for it. It only comes easy if someone else is being screwed.

No, I'm talking about the brain-dead 40 hour week that everyone is supposed to work for the rest of time, despite the fact that machines are doing most of the hard physical work now. Anything that is repetitive will be taken over by robots, that's just a fact.

You can work the hardest of anyone, but if you are getting low wages for it, then what is the point ?

There are plenty of people around the world who are well off without working all year long. Casual and part-time work just generally makes more sense in today's world. Doesn't matter where I've worked, I can tell you most full-time employees don't have enough work to fill in their days.

The only reason it's still so prevalent is because we are stuck in this paradigm. The government and it's banking system is based on assumptions made 60 years ago and there have been no fundamental changes and it just isn't working anymore. It made sense at the end of WW2, but so many institutions have been built up around it that benefit from it that it seems we needed the crisis to force the necessary changes.

Don't get stuck thinking the world will be pretty much as you always knew it. People who do that end up getting thought of as dinosaurs.

mmm....shiney! said:
Karl Marx and I see eye-to-eye on one thing - our work defines us.

Wage slave thinking. But Marx was fond of that. The whole worker's paradise thing. In fact, that's what we largely got in Western society. A type of Marxian socialism.

No actually you are talking shit hawkeye.

There are so many stupid things wrong with your post that I can't begin to address them and I am absolutely aghast that you would even think that way, and bordsilver thanked you for that? FFS.

But I'll give it a go. Just give me time. :mad:
lol I'l give it a go :)

The 40 hour week will give anyone on a basic hourly rate enough money to pay their bills & eat ,anything less & there would be many more on the poverty line .
Theres many jobs that cant & will never be done by machines . If youve ever done a decent days work in many industries you would know that .(obviously said by an IT veteran .)So your "most hard work " should be "a very small percentage " & you should have said "most hard work will be done in large companies that have enough money to buy those machines ."

you can work hard but what is the point ?

The point is you will be the first in line for a promotion or a pay rise .& go home knowing you done your best in whatever you do . This thinking is what burns me up ...If your good at something it usually carries over into other things in your life .

There are plenty of people working who are well off & not working all year long

Im sure they started by working year long . There would be very few who have the luxury of not working full time that can afford to have a decent lifestyle & feed their family & pay the mortgage . Sounds like your a single guy with no kids & no mortgage .
Casual & part time makes more sense ? Yeah if your lazy & have no bills or family to support

Most full time employees dont have enough to fill their days ?... Man you got to get out from behind that keyboard & get a real job thats just bullshit .

Stuck in a pradigm ? yeah its called reality .

It isnt working ? Try telling china that whos workers work far more than 40 hours a week look at the production that comes out of that country. So that 60 year old thinking is still relevant today no matter if your a country or an individual .
 
^ Now that I (think) I understand where you are coming from I think we're all on the same page but attacking the same "meaning of life" vs "necessity of life" questions from different trajectories.

I'm too tired (from work) to try to word this properly but I see "work" as the necessary thing needed to allow people to live - which in a division of labour society means being paid so that you can trade your fruits for other peoples fruits. As I said, Historically this was back breaking/dangerous/mind numbing really shitty work that no-one "wanted" to do. More and more people are getting the choice to do and/or to strive for something better (eg many computer nerds can happily spend the whole day programming; many service industry people enjoy providing services (albeit probably prefer less hours and more pay); many TV-industry actors/artists enjoy what they create etc). Saying that however, as like-minded stackers we all recognise the financial repression and leaching off the average persons labour that exists because we don't have sound money.

And i think i've gone off on a tangent to the main topic but i'm tapping this in on my damn titchy phone so that'll do. :D
 
Maybe all workers should invest in a 3D printer, the tool of the 21st Century. :)

Regards Errol 43
 
No surprise they just followed Cyprus' lead in facilitating the sequestration of depositors' cash then eh?

Switzerland... that bastion of opaque Bilderbergiana, home to stolen Nazi cash & gold, Russki proceeds of state theft, bribery & Putin-endorsed mafia corruption, undeclared cash accounts & an infinite number of anonymous dodgy deposit boxes...

Snafu'd...

But the trains are spotless... you could eat your dinner off 'em...
 
Another Peter Schiff article on the same topic (largely the same content as the opening post but presented differently - can't emphasise this topic enough though).
Peter Schiff said:
While the world's economies jockey one another for the lead in the currency devaluation derby, it's worth considering the value of the prize they are seeking. They believe a weak currency opens the door to trade dominance, by allowing manufacturers to undercut foreign rivals, and to economic growth, by fighting deflation. On the other side of the coin, they believe a strong currency is an economic albatross that leads to stagnation. But the demonstrable effects of currency strength and weakness reveal the emptiness of their theory.

A country that attracts investment from abroad (through stable and fair governance, low taxes, a growing economy, and a productive labor force) and produces goods that are in demand on the global stage will generally see a rising currency. In essence, this is the reward for a job well done. Strong currencies then help nations stay strong by conferring greater purchasing power to its citizens and businesses, which keeps input costs low, thereby enhancing international competitiveness. Strong currencies also encourage savings, keep real interest rates low, lower capital costs, and allow for greater productivity and higher real wages.

It is often argued that a weak currency confers advantages in foreign trade. But the edge only results from putting exports on sale. Any merchant will tell you that it's easy to sell more if you cut prices, but most would prefer charging full retail. However, exports are not an end in themselves, they are a means to pay for imports. The goal of an economy is not to work, but to consume. If citizens in one nation buy goods produced in another, they must pay with exports. When a nation's currency appreciates imports cost less and fewer exports are needed to pay. This means goods and services at home will be cheaper and more plentiful, and citizens won't need to work as hard to buy them. This is the definition of rising living standards.

But when it comes to relative currency valuations, the United States dollar exists in a world of its own. As the international reserve, the dollar is the de-facto beneficiary of any other country's intervention. When countries intervene, they do so specifically against the dollar. In addition, many countries, (China and Taiwan for instance) maintain a pegged relationship to the Greenback. Therefore in a world dominated by interventionist banks, the factors that push the dollar have been inverted. The dollar falls when fundamentals either improve abroad or deteriorate at home (both cases increase the propensity for intervention). The rest of the world's currencies compete on their own merit. As a result, it is not an accident that over the last decade Australia, New Zealand, and Switzerland, three of the world's strongest economies, have produced strong currencies.

Since 2001, all three have had generally appreciating currencies, accompanied by steadily rising exports, strong economic fundamentals, and low unemployment. From 2001 to 2012, the Kiwi Dollar appreciated by 98% against the U.S. dollar, but its exports in local currency terms increased by 40% (170% in U.S. dollar terms). Over the same time frame, the Aussie dollar appreciated by 103% and exports increased by 102% in local currency (and 305% in U.S. dollar terms). In Switzerland the story was the same, currency up 82%, exports up 53% in local terms and (and 175% in U.S. terms). Where exactly did they encounter export troubles due to their rising currencies?

At the same time, the strengthening currencies made few negative impacts on other aspects of economic performance. At the time when the Swiss bankers caved to international pressure in September 2011 and pegged its previously surging franc to the euro, their economy had shown some of the best economic performance on the Continent. More recently, Australia and New Zealand reported stunning job creation figures. Adjusted for population, the U.S. would have had to create more than 600,000jobs per month to keep pace with Australia, and 900,000 jobs per month to match New Zealand (U.S. job creation has averaged about 169,000 per month over the last year).

These lessons have been wholly lost on the Japanese who are frantically trying (and succeeding) in severely devaluing the yen. Although Japan's export machine had not suffered from the yen's appreciation from 2001-2012 (up 30% in local currency exports and 98% in dollar terms), newly installed prime minister Shinzo Abe and his minions at the Bank of Japan believe a weaker yen is the key to renewed economic strength. But the collapse of the yen has helped push up both the Aussie and Kiwi dollars, which has spurred bankers in Australia and New Zealand into taking unneeded and ultimately self-destructive actions. In April they threw in their lot with the interventionists and cut interest rates to stop the rise of their currencies. But the moves fly in the face of the modern playbook which states that policy should be tightened during periods of full employment, strong growth, and surging real estate prices. The misplaced fear of a strong currency seems to trump all other concerns.

While there is little reason to believe that strong currencies stifle exports, there is ample evidence that they increase domestic purchasing power (which is a real test of economic success). In the United States, oil currently sells for about $97 per barrel, about 16% below the $113 high price seen in April 2011. And so while our economy falters, at least consumers are not saddled with surging energy costs. While the 20% devaluation of the yen since that high in 2011 has made Japan the champion of Keynesian economists, it also means that oil in Japan is currently selling for the highest price since the financial crisis of 2008-2009. And it's not just oil, the Japanese must pay more for everything they import. How this benefits the rank and file has yet to be properly explained.

The latest data confirms that the banzai attack on the yen has not helped Japan's trade position. The weaker currency led to higher import costs, resulting in the 10th month in a row of trade deficits. Although April exports rose 3.8 percent from a year earlier, the trade deficit widened to 879.9 billion yen ($8.6 billion), the worst April since at least 1979. But the falling yen is creating a clear and present danger in Japan's enormous bond market. In less than one month, yields on 10 year Japanese Government Bonds have more than doubled, approaching nearly 1%. While those rates may sound manageable for most countries, Japan has the highest debt to GDP ratio in the developed world. If they had to pay 2% (the same rate as its inflation target), the country would need to devote more than half of its tax revenue just to service its debt! Clearly this possibility is dawning on stock investors who pushed down the Nikkei by more 7% today.

Never in the course of history has a country's economy failed because its currency was too strong. It's a pathology that simply does not exist. On the other hand, the list of those ruined by weak currencies is extensive. The view that a weak currency is desirable is so absurd that it could only have been devised to serve the political agenda of those engineering the descent. And while I don't blame policy makers from spinning self-serving fairy tales (that is their nature), I find extreme fault with those hypnotized members of the media and the financial establishment who have checked their reason at the door.

A currency war is different from any other kind of conventional war in that the object is to kill oneself. The nation that succeeds in inflicting the most damage on its own citizens wins the war. The only real way to win is not to play.
Had the same discussion with someone just last week about a country on a sound money standard experiencing currency appreciation and deflation. The horror :P
 
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