How did the Adler shotgun law changes go for you?
Self defence in Australia (LDP)
- Thread starter yennus
- Start date
bordsilver said:
Ah the old right wing libertarian crap, Freedumb - where has Libertarianism actually ever been implemented? Oh that is right it is just a crackpot THEORY no-one actually takes seriously or that many people have actually even heard of
Newtosilver said:...
Ah the old right wing libertarian crap, Freedumb - where has Libertarianism actually ever been implemented? Oh that is right it is just a crackpot THEORY no-one actually takes seriously or that many people have actually even heard of
Running out of logical arguments? Reverting back to slogans?
The founding of the USA was based on Libertarian principles.
The economies of Hong Kong and Singapore are run on Libertarian principles.
Different states in the USA are also a good way to analyze which policies work better (e.g. control vs freedom); War on drugs vs Regulation of recreational drugs.
This is one of the problems when you prevent law-abiding citizens from having the means of defending themselves:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFYMJvsWefw?t=1m9s[/youtube]
This is a solution to crime when law-abiding citizens have the means to defend themselves:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rj02JmKipk[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFYMJvsWefw?t=1m9s[/youtube]
This is a solution to crime when law-abiding citizens have the means to defend themselves:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rj02JmKipk[/youtube]
yennus said:Newtosilver said:...
Ah the old right wing libertarian crap, Freedumb - where has Libertarianism actually ever been implemented? Oh that is right it is just a crackpot THEORY no-one actually takes seriously or that many people have actually even heard of
Running out of logical arguments? Reverting back to slogans?
The founding of the USA was based on Libertarian principles.
The economies of Hong Kong and Singapore are run on Libertarian principles.
Different states in the USA are also a good way to analyze which policies work better (e.g. control vs freedom); War on drugs vs Regulation of recreational drugs.
Hong Kong
https://www.quora.com/In-what-ways-is-Hong-Kong-not-a-libertarian-paradise
Does not sound to Libertarian to me
Singapore is a democratic republic.
There are no Libertarian Countries, saying certain countries have Libertarian Principles is like saying Australia has Socialist principles. That does make Australia a Communist Country.
Newtosilver said:
Countries consist of policies which make them lean towards either government control or individual freedom.
You won't find any pure communist or capitalist nations either - but only you would argue "where has Libertarianism actually ever been implemented?"
What kind of deflection is that? Your response doesn't even make sense.Newtosilver said:bordsilver said:
Ah the old right wing libertarian crap, Freedumb - where has Libertarianism actually ever been implemented? Oh that is right it is just a crackpot THEORY no-one actually takes seriously or that many people have actually even heard of
For what reason does a person need to buy <insert item here> besides that they want it? You name it - diapers, guitars, wedding rings, the computer you're typing on, etc. The only valid reason for ownership is that people want an item to be theirs. This is not a "Libertarian" statement.
A Libertarian statement would be recognising that the only consistent way that people can come together and co-exist peacefully when there are multiple people wanting scarce goods is to recognise that every person has a natural right to own property and that the legal system and social norms that the society adopts should uphold this principle to the fullest extent possible.
You pro Freedumb campainers do not seem to be able to look more than one step ahead, someone having firearms for "self defence" affects others. If the firearm could just kill the person who owned it or "bad guys" fair enough but it does not.
It is like people using mercury for gold extraction, why can't they do what they want on their own land? The thing is it gets into the water supply and poisons other people and the enviroment.
Your actions have consequences for others. For every legitimate act of self defence you would have the death of 5 other innocent people a s consequence.
It is like people using mercury for gold extraction, why can't they do what they want on their own land? The thing is it gets into the water supply and poisons other people and the enviroment.
Your actions have consequences for others. For every legitimate act of self defence you would have the death of 5 other innocent people a s consequence.
bordsilver said:What kind of deflection is that? Your response doesn't even make sense.Newtosilver said:bordsilver said:
Ah the old right wing libertarian crap, Freedumb - where has Libertarianism actually ever been implemented? Oh that is right it is just a crackpot THEORY no-one actually takes seriously or that many people have actually even heard of
For what reason does a person need to buy <insert item here> besides that they want it? You name it - diapers, guitars, wedding rings, the computer you're typing on, etc. The only valid reason for ownership is that people want an item to be theirs. This is not a "Libertarian" statement.
A Libertarian statement would be recognising that the only consistent way that people can come together and co-exist peacefully when there are multiple people wanting scarce goods is to recognise that every person has a natural right to own property and that the legal system and social norms that the society adopts should uphold this principle to the fullest extent possible.
Libertarianism and Communism are both based on rigid, basic principles at opposite ends of the spectrum which is why neither work, Chile Libertarian land being the perfect example.
yennus said:
Singapore leans to individual freedom? Chewing gum is illegal there, the only place in the world where it is illegal as far as I know. Gay sex is illega with up to two years imprisonmentl, walking around in your house naked is illegal. Singing songs with rude lyrics is illegal, feeding birds is illegal, taking drugs before entering the country (they can drug test younwithout a warrant)
Your Libertarian freedom loving example looks pretty shakey, sounds like a lot of Govt control to me, more so than Australia.
Newtosilver said:
Economically it does. Number 2 in the world!!! Behind Honkers, Australia is 5.
Residents are allowed to possess a firearm for personal protection, subject to very strict conditions. In the past 16 years there have been 2 gun related homicides, obviously Singaporeans prefer to murder using other methods.
Edit to add: Australia's homicide rate/100 000 people is about 3 times higher than Singapore's. If I was to throw a "Big A.D. Conjecture" around - I'd say that if we adopted gun laws that legalised personal protection, then we'd end up like Singapore.
i) If the firearm could just kill the person who owned it or "bad guys" fair enough but it does not.
- That's where personal responsibility comes in - a blanket ban for all law abiding citizens is not a good solution.
ii) It is like people using mercury for gold extraction, why can't they do what they want on their own land? The thing is it gets into the water supply and poisons other people and the enviroment.
- If that happens, those people should be required to make good/compensation. Abuses of the environment still happen under Socialism and there is often zero compensation.
iii) Your actions have consequences for others.
- Absolutely! As do yours. Look at all the cases I've shown you. In each of those cases, if the innocent person was not armed, they may have been severely abused and/or killed.
iv) For every legitimate act of self defence you would have the death of 5 other innocent people a s consequence.
- I would like to see your source statistics for that; and EVEN IF that were the case - disarming innocent people is not the solution for curbing failures in personal responsibility (e.g. accidental discharges, etc).
- That's where personal responsibility comes in - a blanket ban for all law abiding citizens is not a good solution.
ii) It is like people using mercury for gold extraction, why can't they do what they want on their own land? The thing is it gets into the water supply and poisons other people and the enviroment.
- If that happens, those people should be required to make good/compensation. Abuses of the environment still happen under Socialism and there is often zero compensation.
iii) Your actions have consequences for others.
- Absolutely! As do yours. Look at all the cases I've shown you. In each of those cases, if the innocent person was not armed, they may have been severely abused and/or killed.
iv) For every legitimate act of self defence you would have the death of 5 other innocent people a s consequence.
- I would like to see your source statistics for that; and EVEN IF that were the case - disarming innocent people is not the solution for curbing failures in personal responsibility (e.g. accidental discharges, etc).
Silver Pauper
Member
Respectfully this discussion is completely futile and not one of the contributors is going to change their beliefs and choices as a result of anything written here.
So in hopes of hearing Newtosilver's head explode...
Guns...
Source:http://conservativetribune.com/chart-shows-each-state-compares-other-nations-gun-ownership/
Source Link - http://conservativetribune.com/chart-shows-each-state-compares-other-nations-gun-ownership/
That was back in 2010...
More Guns...
Source: https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/07/dean-weingarten/how-many-guns-are-there-in-america/
Source Link -
347 Million... that was three years ago back in 2013.
Even more guns...
Americans Bought Enough Guns on Black Friday to Arm the Marine Corps
Coupled with the estimated 1 trillion... yes... that is a 1 followed by 12 zeros... 1,000,000,000,000 rounds of ammunition owned by civilians... it is little wonder that a full frontal attack on the USA homeland is considered suicidal by war planners of enemies of the USA.
As I was writing this post, I just had to chuckle about this entire thread. The numbers are staggering just like pretty much everything else about the USA from the national debt to the number french fries served by McDonalds each year. To even consider the possibility of 'real' gun control is like dreaming of a USA without pick-ups, blue jeans, Big Macs and Coca~Cola.
The USA is the land of extremes, the best and worst, the most and the least, the brightest and the dimmest, the smartest and the dumbest, the left, the right and everything in between and that is its greatest strength... and weakness.
And with that gentlemen, I respectfully retire from this conversation.
Thanks
So in hopes of hearing Newtosilver's head explode...
Guns...
Source:http://conservativetribune.com/chart-shows-each-state-compares-other-nations-gun-ownership/
Source Link - http://conservativetribune.com/chart-shows-each-state-compares-other-nations-gun-ownership/
That was back in 2010...
More Guns...
Source: https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/07/dean-weingarten/how-many-guns-are-there-in-america/
Source Link -
347 Million... that was three years ago back in 2013.
Even more guns...
Americans Bought Enough Guns on Black Friday to Arm the Marine Corps
The actual number of firearms sold on Black Friday, the 23th of November, 2016 is in excess of 200,000... yes.. you read that right... 200,000 firearms sold in one day!
Coupled with the estimated 1 trillion... yes... that is a 1 followed by 12 zeros... 1,000,000,000,000 rounds of ammunition owned by civilians... it is little wonder that a full frontal attack on the USA homeland is considered suicidal by war planners of enemies of the USA.
As I was writing this post, I just had to chuckle about this entire thread. The numbers are staggering just like pretty much everything else about the USA from the national debt to the number french fries served by McDonalds each year. To even consider the possibility of 'real' gun control is like dreaming of a USA without pick-ups, blue jeans, Big Macs and Coca~Cola.
The USA is the land of extremes, the best and worst, the most and the least, the brightest and the dimmest, the smartest and the dumbest, the left, the right and everything in between and that is its greatest strength... and weakness.
And with that gentlemen, I respectfully retire from this conversation.
Thanks
Newtosilver said:
The necessity to protect one's self is a natural consequence of being self aware of one's mortality and a basic requirement of ensuring one's survival. The necessity to own property is likewise a natural consequence of ensuring one's safety and survival needs are met. Once one is safe, higher order needs come into view and become the object of individual pursuit. Love and companionship, social contribution and personal achievement, compassion and supporting others, etc., etc.
Freedom is the unhindered ability to pursue such interests to fulfill one's human potential. Control opposes freedom and has as either objective or consequence the placing of limitations on the ability of one to realise their potential. Libertarianism is a philosophy that identifies the importance of the individual journey to self-realisation within the human experience and seeks to codify the freedoms necessary to support that journey. Individual autonomy, personal property rights, the right to privacy, the freedom of choice and the burden of personal responsibility are all elements of the freedom needed for an individual to realise their potential.
Ridiculing freedom is akin to ridiculing your own humanity and denying the legitimacy of the necessity of your personal survival. It is completely nonsensical.
Good luck getting the laws changed
Newtosilver said:Good luck getting the laws changed
It will happen one day, it's part of man's political and economic evolution. You could say it's a natural and unavoidable progression in the liberty of the individual. You can try and stem the tide newtosilver, but eventually, we'll overwhelm the power of the State with logic and rational debate.