Self defence in Australia (LDP)
- Thread starter yennus
- Start date
trew said:
i) the principle of the right to self defense is under scrutiny - Newtosilver doesn't even believe in the principle.
ii) I agree - barbed wire fencing would be a deterrent... but that too is illegal in most non-rural areas.
iii) walls and fences have restrictions also.
Newtosilver said:
I never said that Hitler came to power because "people did not have a rifle to overtrow [sic] him."
Nevertheless, an audio bite you should enjoy.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh4Sloc9QUI[/youtube]
"Self defense is the most fundamental aspect of individualism - it means you get to defend yourself, your family, your own life - even if it doesn't benefit the collective... you matter individually...Trying to save your life - this is morally good." (Ben Shapiro)
yennus said:
You implied it post 153, if I misinterpreted it was does post 153 mean?
trew said:
They would but they don't support his argument, it has to be about freedumb, the oppressive heal of jackboot Govt on the neck of a free and proud people, the left trying to control his life, the right to kill the hoards of dangerous criminals who are just waiting to take what they did not earn, the socialist moochers who have had a free ride off the hard work of others and being a real man defending your property not hiding behind locked doors.
Your typical right wing crap.
yennus said:Newtosilver said:
It reads: "The experts agree... Gun control works!"
I thought a person with your political inclinations should like it - they agree with your position. More control, less 'freedumb'
Oh so if you are pro gun control you are a dictator resposnsible for the deaths of millions, sure that makes sense by your standards.
Back to the knife issue, obviously you support peoples rights to carry knives to defend themselves? What age can people carry knives 15? 18?
Pretty simple question.
What about old people that can't defend themselves, should they be allowed to own a gun.
Us younger's can use an imamate object like a 4lb sledgy or a wooden staff or whatever is laying around
Knives are a lot more dangerous than guns, that's why the coppers have knife proof vests not bullet ones
Us younger's can use an imamate object like a 4lb sledgy or a wooden staff or whatever is laying around
Knives are a lot more dangerous than guns, that's why the coppers have knife proof vests not bullet ones
radiobirdman said:
Knives are more dangerous than guns? You can not be serious, is that a typo?
No I don't think old people shouldn't be able to own guns for self defence.
Newtosilver said:
Of course they are, you are more likely to bleed out after a knife wound than a gun shot, multiple gun shots might be a bit different aka semi /fully auto carjacker shoot out
radiobirdman said:
I have to say I am stunned, I do not even know how to respond to that comment. Have you had much first hand experience with gunshot wounds?
Those that are more socialist/left-leaning, tend to put the responsibility of safety on the Government. E.g. It's the governments job to keep me safe.
Those that are more freedom-leaning/conservative tend to put the responsibility of safety on the Individual. E.g. It's my responsibility to keep me safe.
I can understand where Newtosilver comes from - he obviously has a lot of trust in the government to keep him safe. I honestly hope he never has to defend himself, and that his loved ones are always kept safe.
I don't share his optimism, and view my safety as my responsibility.
trew said:
Depends who goes first
Newtosilver said:
So you are cool with old people owning guns, at least we are getting somewhere
Not with the guns you're likely to use, but have seen the odd one
saw a bikie get knifed in a pub by a couple of suited gentleman, lots of deep red blood as they dragged him into the dunnies , he was cactus
A slash wound does more damage than a single entry/ Exit wound, unless your using hollow point bullets like the Vic coppers even when they were illegal
I do not know why I am even replying.
From memory the longest shot taken in Afghanistan was by a Canadian and the range was 2400 meters with a .50 cal. A .50 cal removes limbs, if you are hit in the arm or leg you and the round hits the bone it will remove the limb full stop. How close do you need to be with a knife and what type of wound effect will it cause?
Next point google "permanent wound cavity", "temporary stretch cavity" and "hydrostatic shock" and learn what they mean. I am not explaining them all.
A penetrating knife wound has a very narrow permanent wound channel and no temporary stretch cavity which you get with a gun shot wound. So a much less dramatic effect on the body in several ways, I'll cover off on a couple below.
You should be able to work it out, due to the hydrostatic shock and the temporary stretch cavity you get bruising from a gunshot wound and irrepairable tissue damage to tissues around the wound cavity which need to be removed in surgery. You also have a suction effect as the round enters the body, this drags in foriegn bodies such as pieces of cloth from clothing to the body increasing chances of infection (there is a medical term for it which I can not remember) which you do not get that with a knife wound. Basically a bullet transfers kinetic energy into the body causing trauma as well, I am not going into it you can google it. Think of the youtube videos where people shoot rabbits with a high velocity rifle for example and the rabbit "explodes" now think of the effect of stabbing a rabbit.
Next lets look at time of injury to time of death, with a knife to "flick the switch" so kill instantly the way to do it is from behind push the head forward, insert the knife at the base of the skull and push it in as if you are trying to go towards the right eye. Once it is in then turn the knife to the left towards the left eye. That will cut the brain stem and the person is dead instantly. Also when you go in with the knife you do not want to go in from the side of the skull you need to go in from where the large muscle that you can feel that runs vertically along the neck.
With a gunshot you can "flick the switch" by putting rounds into various parts of the body (I am not ging through all of them as there are to many to cover.
Next lets look at stopping power, with a knife you can be stabbed numerous times and not even feel it, once blood loss starts to effect the body you will feel the effects and then you feel like a little lay down and go down hill from there, there is no kinetic energy transfer like you get with a gunshot. This can take a few minutes, in those few minutes you can still function, the more active you are the less time till you go down generally speaking. In those few minutes you can still inflict damage on someone which is why generally in knife fights both people get cut or stabbed.
With a high velocity rifle round for example due to the hydrostatic shock affect and the kinetic energy from the projectile you have a totally different effect than on the body than a knife wound, not just a very narrow permanent wound cavity and the effect on the body is much more significant in regards to both leathality and stopping power.
Basically the effects of the projectile drops you practically as soon as it passes through the body. You then also have a large wound tract which produces haemorrhage so you start to bleedout. The wound incapacitates immediatley and you go down. It is hard to describe what it looks like, basically it is like someone "turned them off" they just crumple. You will generally have a small entrance wound and a much larger exit wound depending on a number of factors such as weapon caliber which I won't go into now.
Then you look at a shotgun for example, a OO buckshot round has 9 x .33 cal projectiles, a round of buckshot delived to the center of the seen mass ( the chest) assuming all 9 projectiles impact produces 9 wound tracts and gives 9 times the chance of hitting a vital organ such as the heart or lungs. Not only is each wound tract more damageing to the body than a narrow permanant wound tract caused by a knife there are 9 of them. This has a devestating effect on the body.
I could keep going and talk about different projectiles such as Full Metal Jacket FMJ, hollow points, soft tips etc and the tumbling effect, brakeup of projectiles causing multiple wound tracts, effects of projectiles on hard and soft body tissues etc but I am off to bed.
Actually I should have gone over the effect of hard tissues (bones) in regards to gunshot wounds vs knife wound as well.
Do you get the idea? Clear enough for you? Yennus - impress me, tell me what I got wrong.
From memory the longest shot taken in Afghanistan was by a Canadian and the range was 2400 meters with a .50 cal. A .50 cal removes limbs, if you are hit in the arm or leg you and the round hits the bone it will remove the limb full stop. How close do you need to be with a knife and what type of wound effect will it cause?
Next point google "permanent wound cavity", "temporary stretch cavity" and "hydrostatic shock" and learn what they mean. I am not explaining them all.
A penetrating knife wound has a very narrow permanent wound channel and no temporary stretch cavity which you get with a gun shot wound. So a much less dramatic effect on the body in several ways, I'll cover off on a couple below.
You should be able to work it out, due to the hydrostatic shock and the temporary stretch cavity you get bruising from a gunshot wound and irrepairable tissue damage to tissues around the wound cavity which need to be removed in surgery. You also have a suction effect as the round enters the body, this drags in foriegn bodies such as pieces of cloth from clothing to the body increasing chances of infection (there is a medical term for it which I can not remember) which you do not get that with a knife wound. Basically a bullet transfers kinetic energy into the body causing trauma as well, I am not going into it you can google it. Think of the youtube videos where people shoot rabbits with a high velocity rifle for example and the rabbit "explodes" now think of the effect of stabbing a rabbit.
Next lets look at time of injury to time of death, with a knife to "flick the switch" so kill instantly the way to do it is from behind push the head forward, insert the knife at the base of the skull and push it in as if you are trying to go towards the right eye. Once it is in then turn the knife to the left towards the left eye. That will cut the brain stem and the person is dead instantly. Also when you go in with the knife you do not want to go in from the side of the skull you need to go in from where the large muscle that you can feel that runs vertically along the neck.
With a gunshot you can "flick the switch" by putting rounds into various parts of the body (I am not ging through all of them as there are to many to cover.
Next lets look at stopping power, with a knife you can be stabbed numerous times and not even feel it, once blood loss starts to effect the body you will feel the effects and then you feel like a little lay down and go down hill from there, there is no kinetic energy transfer like you get with a gunshot. This can take a few minutes, in those few minutes you can still function, the more active you are the less time till you go down generally speaking. In those few minutes you can still inflict damage on someone which is why generally in knife fights both people get cut or stabbed.
With a high velocity rifle round for example due to the hydrostatic shock affect and the kinetic energy from the projectile you have a totally different effect than on the body than a knife wound, not just a very narrow permanent wound cavity and the effect on the body is much more significant in regards to both leathality and stopping power.
Basically the effects of the projectile drops you practically as soon as it passes through the body. You then also have a large wound tract which produces haemorrhage so you start to bleedout. The wound incapacitates immediatley and you go down. It is hard to describe what it looks like, basically it is like someone "turned them off" they just crumple. You will generally have a small entrance wound and a much larger exit wound depending on a number of factors such as weapon caliber which I won't go into now.
Then you look at a shotgun for example, a OO buckshot round has 9 x .33 cal projectiles, a round of buckshot delived to the center of the seen mass ( the chest) assuming all 9 projectiles impact produces 9 wound tracts and gives 9 times the chance of hitting a vital organ such as the heart or lungs. Not only is each wound tract more damageing to the body than a narrow permanant wound tract caused by a knife there are 9 of them. This has a devestating effect on the body.
I could keep going and talk about different projectiles such as Full Metal Jacket FMJ, hollow points, soft tips etc and the tumbling effect, brakeup of projectiles causing multiple wound tracts, effects of projectiles on hard and soft body tissues etc but I am off to bed.
Actually I should have gone over the effect of hard tissues (bones) in regards to gunshot wounds vs knife wound as well.
Do you get the idea? Clear enough for you? Yennus - impress me, tell me what I got wrong.
radiobirdman said:Newtosilver said:
So you are cool with old people owning guns, at least we are getting somewhere
Not with the guns you're likely to use, but have seen the odd one
saw a bikie get knifed in a pub by a couple of suited gentleman, lots of deep red blood as they dragged him into the dunnies , he was cactus
A slash wound does more damage than a single entry/ Exit wound, unless your using hollow point bullets like the Vic coppers even when they were illegal
Crap a slash wound does not do more damage than a gunshot wound, read my post above.
This is the thing that gets me, everone going I need a gun for self defence but people have a COMPLETE lack of knowledge.
Edit: obviously we can't but a great experiment would be you have a knife or two if you want (you could even wear a bullit proof vest if you want, but then I would aim for the groin) and I have a little coach shotgun with 00 buckshot and a beer, you stand 5 meters away and when you are ready in your own time you come at me. (I would want you 5 meters away just so I get a better spread with the buckshot) I bet you I could drop you without spilling my beer.
If you are going to get shot in Australia most likely it will be with a hand gun and you will most likely live.
A lot more people die of knife wounds than gun wounds in Australia has been that way for 20years
And yes a high powered rifle will do a lot more damage than a hand gun and a knife
What the rest of the world does is there problem, but I'm sure knife deaths far outnumber gun deaths all over the world
to me that makes knifes more dangerous than guns because you are more likely to die by being stabbed than shot.
A lot more people die of knife wounds than gun wounds in Australia has been that way for 20years
And yes a high powered rifle will do a lot more damage than a hand gun and a knife
What the rest of the world does is there problem, but I'm sure knife deaths far outnumber gun deaths all over the world
to me that makes knifes more dangerous than guns because you are more likely to die by being stabbed than shot.
radiobirdman said:
Yup, that's pretty accurate.
"... knife murders have risen from 30 to 41 per cent over the last decade." (2013)
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...iminology-report/story-e6frg6nf-1226581896001
