Libertarian ideology and financial collapse

Arguments against "Libertarianism":
- "makes not sense"
- "immature"
- "not convincing"
- "frozen"

It reads alot alike the blabla of those "Parasites" that Ayn Rand wrote 'bout in her book Atlas Shrugged.
That's not even an ideology, it's just theft of the legal kind by lazy butts hunting excuses for their absence on the work floor.
 
Newtosilver said:
I knew this is where you were going to go with this lol. I am happy to live in a functioning society, a democracy like Australia, to have that functioning society I am willing to pay tax, obey laws that are for the benefit of society. I am happy to have gun laws, speed limits, drink driving laws, building regulations etc. there is no fraud, violance against others or theft that is used.

That is rehtoric that sounds good but fails under examination, the old tax is theft... Bullshit :) you pay taxes, you get roads, footpaths, public schools and hospitals as well as programs for the sustainment of a functioning society.

You are being forced to obey speed limits that the govt imposes, you are being stopped from doing urinating wherever you want in public places. That is the govt limiting your freedom? The fact is theft is what 95% of Australians want.

Could the system be better? Hell yes but guess what.... Democracy works.

Libertarianism? Well refer to the link in the other post for the most successful, largest scale Libertarian attempt at a community - it was and is a shitfight.

I am all ears for a system that is a better alternative to democracy, Libertarianism is not it though.
Australia a democracy?
All that you guys can is voting who is allowed to do a next X years whatever he wants unpunished lol. :D
What else than theft can tax be?
People that want to get other peoples products and services without doing back what they want in return?
What else than a thievesclub can State be?
A society functions when people work together.
And functions less with an increasing number Parasites / size of their theft.
Parasitism? Well, shit.
 
Democracy in theory, every 4 years or so we decide which puppet will take the stage on behalf of lobby groups and corporate interests based on the popularity of issues engineered to distract and divide. If the result is a majority in both houses, the effect is dictatorial. If the senate ends up with a balance of power, minority interests gain over-representation flirting with the two party duopoly. If the lower house is hung, comedy ensues as true colours are revealed in a mad power grab where promises and principles are fluid and negotiable.
 
SilverPete said:
"The best thing you can say about libertarians is that because their views derive from abstract theory, they tend to be highly principled and rigorous in their logic."

"The worst thing you can say about libertarians is that they are intellectually immature, frozen in the worldview many of them absorbed from reading Ayn Rand novels in high school."

The End of Libertarianism
The financial collapse proves that its ideology makes no sense.
http://i.imgur.com/rtvr9ke.jpg

A source of mild entertainment amid the financial carnage has been watching libertarians scurrying to explain how the global financial crisis is the result of too much government intervention rather than too little. One line of argument casts as villain the Community Reinvestment Act, which prevents banks from "redlining" minority neighborhoods as not creditworthy. Another theory blames Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac for causing the trouble by subsidizing and securitizing mortgages with an implicit government guarantee. An alternative thesis is that past bailouts encouraged investors to behave recklessly in anticipation of a taxpayer rescue.

There are rebuttals to these claims and rejoinders to the rebuttals. But to summarize, the libertarian apologetics fall wildly short of providing any convincing explanation for what went wrong.

The argument as a whole is reminiscent of wearying dorm-room debates that took place circa 1989 about whether the fall of the Soviet bloc demonstrated the failure of communism. Academic Marxists were never going to be convinced that anything that happened in the real world could invalidate their belief system. Utopians of the right, libertarians are just as convinced that their ideas have yet to be tried, and that they would work beautifully if we could only just have a do-over of human history. Like all true ideologues, they find a way to interpret mounting evidence of error as proof that they were right all along.

To which the rest of us can only respond, Haven't you people done enough harm already? We have narrowly avoided a global depression and are mercifully pointed toward merely the worst recession in a long while. This is thanks to a global economic meltdown made possible by libertarian ideas. I don't have much patience with the notion that trying to figure out how we got into this mess is somehow unacceptably vicious and pointlessSarah Palin's view of global warming. As with any failure, inquest is central to improvement. And any competent forensic work has to put the libertarian theory of self-regulating financial markets at the scene of the crime.

...Perhaps the most alarming moment was the failure of a giant, superleveraged hedge fund called Long-Term Capital Management, which threatened the solvency of financial institutions that served as counter-parties to its derivative contracts, much in the manner of Bear Stearns and Lehman Bros. this year. After LTCM's collapse, it became abundantly clear to anyone paying attention to this unfortunately esoteric issue that unregulated credit market derivatives posed risks to the global financial system, and that supervision and limits of some kind were advisable.

...As with the government failures that made 9/11 possible, neglecting to prevent the crash of '08 was a sin of omissionless the result of deregulation per se than of disbelief in financial regulation as a legitimate mechanism. At any point from 1998 on, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, various members of their administrations, or a number of congressional leaders with oversight authority might have stood up and said, "Hey, I think we're in danger and need some additional rules here."

...There's enough blame to go around, but this wasn't just a collective failure. Three officials, more than any others, have been responsible for preventing effective regulatory action over a period of years: Alan Greenspan, the oracular former Fed chairman; Phil Gramm, the heartless former chairman of the Senate banking committee; and Christopher Cox, the unapologetic chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. Blame Greenspan for making the case that the exploding trade in derivatives was a benign way of hedging against risk. Blame Gramm for making sure derivatives weren't covered by the Commodity Futures Modernization Act, a bill he shepherded through Congress in 2000. Blame Cox for championing Bush's policy of "voluntary" regulation of investment banks at the SEC.

...They share with Greenspan, the only member of the trio who openly calls himself a libertarian, a deep aversion to any infringement of the right to buy and sell. That belief, which George Soros calls market fundamentalism, is the best explanation of how the natural tendency of lending standards to turn permissive during a boom became a global calamity that spread so far and so quickly.

The best thing you can say about libertarians is that because their views derive from abstract theory, they tend to be highly principled and rigorous in their logic. Those outside of government at places like the Cato Institute and Reason magazine are just as consistent in their opposition to government bailouts as to the kind of regulation that might have prevented one from being necessary. "Let failed banks fail" is the purist line. This approach would deliver a wonderful lesson in personal responsibility, creating thousands of new jobs in the soup-kitchen and food-pantry industries.

The worst thing you can say about libertarians is that they are intellectually immature, frozen in the worldview many of them absorbed from reading Ayn Rand novels in high school. Like other ideologues, libertarians react to the world's failing to conform to their model by asking where the world went wrong. Their heroic view of capitalism makes it difficult for them to accept that markets can be irrational, misunderstand risk, and misallocate resources or that financial systems without vigorous government oversight and the capacity for pragmatic intervention constitute a recipe for disaster. They are bankrupt, and this time, there will be no bailout.

Full article: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_big_idea/2008/10/the_end_of_libertarianism.html

-1
What utter horseshit! :lol:

Alan Greenspan a libertarian... This author is defnitely a couple of cans short of a sixpack!!
 
Newtosilver said:
Let's face it, Libertarias tell us how great it is as a theory, there are some catchy jingles, if you oppose Libertarianism you oppose freedom and therefore you are a bad person. Tax is theft, meat is murder (oh wait that is a catchy phrase that PETA use)

Libertarians are VERY WELL FUNDED in the US, some very rich people in the US support it. The question is why is there not one country in the world that has adopted it? It is a fringe dwellers idea, very few people actually support it if only they could see how well it would work in practice not just as a theory.

I have always asked why don't Libertarians actually put it into practice even on a small scale? You don't need all this regulation imposed on people.... People just need to embrace Libertarianism and do it and all the doubters will see how amazing it is and the idea wil grow and before you know it people will embrace their new found freedom. There is that idea of building a society in international waters on a floating platforms free from govt oppression.

Well you can not imagine how pleased I was to find out some Libertarians with strong financial backing decided to show the world how Libertarianism works in practice. They found a valley where they could put there principles into practice and live a life in paradise without govt oppression all based on Libertarian ideals. There were even discounts for payments in gold and Bitcoin so the evil govt or no one else could track you and impose upon your freedom.

http://panampost.com/adriana-peralt...-chile-libertarian-paradise-turned-nightmare/

You can not imagine how much I laughed when I found this lol.

Google it and you can read about the hype and how amazing this place was going to be. Of course it did notf fail because of Libertarian principles....... Communism did not fail because of Communist Principles either.......

You must be the blog idiot right?
 
Newtosilver said:
bordsilver said:
I put my voluntarist beliefs into practice every single day. I don't initiate fraud, force or violence against another person or their property and don't advocate others to do so on my behalf. All of my interactions with my friends, family, colleagues and strangers are conducted on a mutually agreeable and voluntary basis. If I did violate these principles accidentally or deliberately I would expect people to feel aggrieved by my actions and seek to obtain redress from me in one way or another. Although I would expect and hope that others acted in the same way I am not naive enough to assume that they will. Consequently I use cost effective methods to reduce the likelihood my person or property will be aggressed against by others.

What do you do?

I don't do what well resourced, supposedly intelligent, successful libertarians did in Chile lol. If they are the smart Libertarians and the people who drive the Libertarian movement, the movers and shakers I would hate to see how it turns out for the average person lol.


Oh, oh, oh one that really made me laugh when you read up on how it went to poo in Chile and all the Libertarians got burnt there was some idiot who said "take them to court and have the court sort it out, that is what Libertarians do" sounds like a good idea until you put it in practice.

Judge : so how was payment made?

Libertarian : I paid $500,000.00 in gold and Bitcoin judge.

Judge to Defendant : where is the money?

Defendant : I lost my phone your honour and the Bitcoin were on it, I don't know how Bitcoin works really and I think I lost it.........

Judge to Libertarian : how much is your legal bill so far?

Libertarian : $200,000.00 your honour, I really need to get that $500,000.00 back.

Defendant : your honour I have $7.37 in my bank account and I am defending myself since I do not have a lawyer as I can not afford one.

Judge : where is the gold you were payed with?

Defendant : I burned it when I was drunk, I actually buried about 8 million in gold from other people as well who invested in the project your honour but I can not remember where I buried it. Also had about 4 million in Bitcoin but as I said I lost my phone, I may have accidently buried it with the gold. Your honour to be honest it has been a rough ride and I can not honestly remember where it went. I could pay it back at approx $12 a week based on my current income.

Judge : are you people stupid?

Libertarian : no your honour we are not stupid we are Libertarians.

Judge orders defendant to pay the money back at $15 a fortnight and for the defendant to try and find his phone lol.

I hear there are some cheap blocks of land being sold in Chile, great climate, bugger all regulation and no govt interference :)

Never mind - that confirms it for me :lol:
 
I have thought long and hard about these issues and it is definitely a challenge sorting the wheat from the chaff. Society appears built upon what Jim Jeffries talks of in the other thread as 'moving as fast as the slowest in the herd', which means that 'rights' are no longer 'rights' but 'mutual obligations'.

As he so succinctly says, 'I think all drugs should be legal but then Sandra went and stabbed her kids. Thanks a lot Sandra!' now we have to control substances so that the 'Sandras' of the world don't destroy the world as we know it. Not fair to the considerate, responsible, do unto others, non-retards in the herd, but the alternative is horrendous.

The alternative seems to be the 'equal rights for everyone' which leaves the Sandras able to rob, loot and shoot at their leisure since the controls are not in place to stop them doing otherwise. Of course their peers will frown on them - except those urging the behaviour that they all indulge in. You don't have to travel many suburbs to see how that's working out.

Libertarian principles work fine if you have a high intelligence, moral, responsible population, and we don't. In fact it appears that forces are at work to remove that type of person from the population. You can have 2 of the 3.

To my mind, this is inevitably coupled with the 'one world conspiracy' concepts, being that the world is overpopulated for the current economic model and leaders have engineered society to fit into easily manageable compartments: Welfare control. Dumb them down so they accept it all. Set them up to die early, feed the dream lie that you too can be rich and powerful, etc etc.

I saw research that the 'sweet point' here on planet Earth under the current economic system was around 1972 (interesting date!). Population vs Resources vs Income distribution vs Social equality was at its best and since has declined. Too many people stuffed the model, but the model is predicated upon eternal growth. How to manage that?

The Powers That Be appear to favour the 1% solution and a vast depopulation and that solution removes all libertarian potentials. If libertarianism runs free, then the slow in the herd will probably circle around and massacre the front of the herd - simply for being richer, different, un-tattooed, black, white, christian, muslim or whatever the sub-average herd who didn't receive one of 'morality' or 'responsibility.'

So libertarianism is not compatible with financial stability in the world as it currently exists. Perhaps when it collapses and we end up the libertarian jungle as was exhibited after the collapse of the USSR there may eventually evolve a 'US Bill of Rights' type of libertarian society, but I think we're too far down the one world government road for that to occur - unless of course financial collapse happens because of massive natural disaster. Then we won't have time to think of any principles other than edible or not.
 
@JulieW - appreciate your thoughts but intelligence of the average person is no more important for effective socio-political systems as it is required for us to have TVs and computers. It comes down to harnessing people's natural instincts and habits.

Edit: the failure of the USSR was the idea that intelligent people can coordinate and plan the myriad of interactions between millions of people to make something as simple as a pencil (pretty sure you've seen/read the "I, Pencil" essay from a few decades ago).
 
bordsilver said:
JulieW said:
2 of 3 you mean?

;)
Morality (beyond those from natural instinct) isn't a prerequisite either.

Unfortunately I see us like a slightly elevated version of the apes with the bones, at the waterhole in 2001: A Space Odyssey, and now there's not enough bones to go around.
 
JulieW said:
bordsilver said:
JulieW said:
2 of 3 you mean?

;)
Morality (beyond those from natural instinct) isn't a prerequisite either.

Unfortunately I see us like a slightly elevated version of the apes with the bones, at the waterhole in 2001: A Space Odyssey, and now there's not enough bones to go around.
That's because we broadly are. :)

However, by embracing the self correcting system that harnesses cooperation for mutual self interest humanity has successfully been able to greatly increase the number of bones.

Edit: Meat not bones :P
 
bordsilver said:
JulieW said:
bordsilver said:
Morality (beyond those from natural instinct) isn't a prerequisite either.

Unfortunately I see us like a slightly elevated version of the apes with the bones, at the waterhole in 2001: A Space Odyssey, and now there's not enough bones to go around.
That's because we broadly are. :)

However, by embracing the self correcting system that harnesses cooperation for mutual self interest humanity has successfully been able to greatly increase the number of bones.

Which brings us to the New World Order and the need for financial collapse to extinguish the surviving relics of libertarianism.
 
JulieW said:
bordsilver said:
JulieW said:
Unfortunately I see us like a slightly elevated version of the apes with the bones, at the waterhole in 2001: A Space Odyssey, and now there's not enough bones to go around.
That's because we broadly are. :)

However, by embracing the self correcting system that harnesses cooperation for mutual self interest humanity has successfully been able to greatly increase the number of bones.

Which brings us to the New World Order and the need for financial collapse to extinguish the surviving relics of libertarianism.
Murray Rothbard and Ron Paul bith outlined plans that don't require financial collapse. The old threads should still be around.
 
JulieW said:
bordsilver said:
JulieW said:
Unfortunately I see us like a slightly elevated version of the apes with the bones, at the waterhole in 2001: A Space Odyssey, and now there's not enough bones to go around.
That's because we broadly are. :)

However, by embracing the self correcting system that harnesses cooperation for mutual self interest humanity has successfully been able to greatly increase the number of bones.

Which brings us to the New World Order and the need for financial collapse to extinguish the surviving relics of libertarianism.

Would this be via Bordsilver's MEGA NAZI collectivist dictatorial environmental socialists who will successfully carry out the mega-holocast because we stupidly placed restrictions on assault rifles in Australia?

LEfOxrR.jpg
 
But would they be allowed? I don't think so, either by statute or ostracism by the 'educated and guided' public. You can see it in relief now, with the bicyclists versus motorists in the inner cities and clearly in the helmet laws, where evidence does not support the reason the law is imposed and enforced.

this was in response to:
Murray Rothbard and Ron Paul bith outlined plans that don't require financial collapse. The old threads should still be around.
,

not the preceding post.
 
JulieW said:
But would they be allowed? I don't think so, either by statute or ostracism by the 'educated and guided' public. You can see it in relief now, with the bicyclists versus motorists in the inner cities and clearly in the helmet laws, where evidence does not support the reason the law is imposed and enforced.

I picture these drivers unable to use divided bicycle lanes and raging impotently as they are shackled by mandatory seatbelt laws and are unable to properly vent their indignation at people that appear to be having innocent fun together outside but who are no doubt planning the slaughter of all mankind via instruction from the ABC.
 
It will only be ALL mankind if their funding is restored. Until then it will only be certain parts of popular populations.
 
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