Jobs, jobs and jobs ... Going, going gone

Discussion in 'Markets & Economies' started by CriticalSilver, Feb 2, 2012.

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  1. Mitchell

    Mitchell Member

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    Personal circumstances? I was asking what you've done to create this society you desire. In what sense is that personal? My question refers to social endeavors, not personal ones.

    Well that's what I've been trying to do. I ask you about what you've sown, about what you've done yourself to distinguish yourself from this society which you deride, because you should reflect your ideal. Because if you don't reflect your ideal, then your ideal isn't a reality, it's just a rant without substance until proven otherwise.

    It's not a personal attack as you percieve it to be. If your ideal is a genuinely plausible one, then I'd like to know how and in what way it is. A bit of evidence is all I'm asking for. I'm giving you the opportunity to prove through the intellectual discussion which you seek, that what you say is correct.

    To clarify, what I want to know more specifically is:

    1. What do you do that differentiates you from others in a better way? (I.e. explain these 'standards' you speak of, no need to reveal your home address or other personal information)
    2. What have you done to create this ideal society you envisage? (It's a social question, not a personal one, since it's about what you've done in society outside of your personal self)

    And a few more questions for understanding:

    1. If everyone shared the same ideals as you, would society be better or worse than it is now?
    2. Do you believe that altruism should play a role in your ideal society?
    3. Do you believe that there should be a society at all?
    4. What do you believe should be the aim of society? (i.e. greatest happiness for all)
    5. Is your ideal society a repeat of one from history, or is it a fresh idea that has not been put into practice?
    6. Given the choice, would you rather live in this society, or your ideal society?
    7. Do you have a concept of an ideal society, or do you reject that notion and aim solely for personal gain at the expense of society?
     
  2. renovator

    renovator Well-Known Member

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    I answer yes to the latter part of number 7 :lol:
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I have no desire to change society Mitchell. It can burn for all I care.

    I made the conscious decision to defect from the status quo of moral standards this hypocritical society claims as the moral ideal some time ago.

    If I did give enough of a damn to want to change it, I'd be in politics.

    I would rather live under an economic and societal structure based on the principles of laissez faire than the utter rubbish we purport as an ideal today.

    The rest of society will continue to stand around and point fingers at people like me for the state of play because I won't conform to it's (IMHO) sick ideals, but never ever question the root cause of it, which is their own moral code.

    I knew a long time ago that I cannot fight the collective. I have no desire to fight it anyway.

    I am just one of the few with the ability to really see (and point out) the rotten core that is hypocritically lorded over as a moral absolute and foundation of an ideal society when it's in reality, it's the core of the problem.

    But to point that out is just to invite attacks and insults and after copping the brunt of a society drunk on it's own fallen ideals, I have absolutely no desire to save it from itself.

    If anything Mitchell, I look at the current state of society like a rabid wolf and better off put down than saved.

    So don't look to people like me with a placard and soap box trying to 'save' anything, I have no desire to.

    If you want to understand more about my mindset and my moral code, I'd ask you watch the series on Youtube called 'This is John Galt speaking'

    http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD8C8AAE60CAAE6DD

    I've posted it before but I already know most people never bothered to watch it when I did.

    But if you do, you'll understand a little better of my mindset and why your line of questioning isn't really rational in the context of my morality.
     
  4. Au-mageddon

    Au-mageddon Active Member

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    Someone's a happy vegemite :rolleyes:
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest


    Yeah, I edited it a bit and took out some of the aggro.

    Not in the mood to deal with random people questioning my values and ideals today.

    I'm not here to be judged.
     
  6. Mitchell

    Mitchell Member

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    Now those videos make sense to me, but you don't.

    When I read your replies earlier in the thread I thought of you as someone wishing for pain and misery upon others as retribution for the pain and misery they have inflicted upon you (directly or indirectly). In short, a desire to finally win one over the society which won over you. To quote you:

    You strike me as the opposite of 'John Galt' in an important way. To live as John Galt is not to derive pleasure vicariously from the misfortune of others, which is the essence of decadence and most notably of sacrifice, but to derive pleasure from the prosperity of yourself foremost, and the prosperity of others second as achievement (to achieve greater happiness).

    The character John Galt points out that those who wish others to become nothing ('zero'), as you wish society to finally crumble, are actually covering for their own sense of inadequency. Although I don't think this was said in the video, I think that what was implied is that the desire to point out the inadequency of others is to make one's self appear less inadequent. To drag down others to one's own level. Or as Nietzsche described it, a parasitism which has been presented similarly in the video with a brief capture of Christopher Hitchens describing religion as a 'virus', and I think I also heard 'germ' at another point in the playlist.

    To surmize, John Galt is a free man in every sense of the phrase. He is not bound by the shackles of society such as the master/slave relationship of sadomasochism, nor is he bound by his own shackles, such as the undesire to think.

    Your desire to act out retribution upon society, to enjoy watching their downfall, is an illustration of the nihilism, the sadomasochism, the lack of self-esteem that John Galt, the thinking man, opposes.

    Despite this admission, you contradict yourself by saying that you feel nothing, that you feel no care for the outcome, that you have no personal involvement in it. This is the striking hypocritical statement of the pious. Not just hypocritical because you admitted previously that you actively get off on watching others suffer and thereby dominating them, but because you claim to hold the high ground when in fact you carry the will to nothingness. A priest holds the high ground by saying that you are to save yourself by adopting their ideals. You hold the high ground by saying that society should save itself by adopting your ideals. Both the priest and you never allow this salvation, this state of cleanliness, to be reached. The sinner can never be completely pure, and society cannot return from the brink of collapse. Both of you advocate views of decadence.

    I asked you before what you have sown, what you have done to better society, because I wanted to know the reality of your ideal. Is it a genuinely successful and attainable one, or is just as decadent and unattainable as the doctrine of salvation?
    I asked this because I saw the vicariousness and the decadence in your words. My assumptions of your views were wrong, but what I saw still stands because you do not reflect your views. John Galt would certainly not derive pleasure from the suffering of others.

    I'll add that your aggression is not a reflection of the values of John Galt. Aggression is the product of fear. If your aim is to achieve happiness, then why do you waste time feeling anger? Clearly because you have no choice. Is John Galt the man who has no choice? No, John Galt is the thinking man. A man controlled by his emotions is not a thinking man. To avoid this, you seem to try to make yourself appear emotionally disinvested and disinterested. Why does being a thinking man, mean you have to cold? A thinking man is one who is in control of his emotions, not the one who ignores them. Whether you like it or not, emotions are a part of reality, and they do play an important role - to disinvest yourself of emotions is nothing short of showing yourself to being something less of what you could be.
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Mitchell, that diatribe of nonsense is utter tripe.

    Who are you to judge my character?

    Why is it that you cannot get it through your thick head that I have no intention, direction or inclination to change the nature of the world around me?

    You continue to ride the assumption of emotional investment when you clearly don't understand in the first place I don't care in the first instance.

    What sort of 'aggression' are you implying anyway? That I'll go out and gun down civilians to teach them a lesson in life?

    What, are you mad or something?

    The complete extent of my 'aggression' here is to point a finger and say 'I told you so'

    That's it. You know why?

    Because - I - don't - care.

    I am concerned with myself and that which I value, nothing else. I don't want anything from you or anyone else. Why can you not understand this?

    I'm not after your validation. I give less than a damn about it.

    You are simply over examining and judging character on flawed assumption, like some half arse psychologist who thinks they are the Sigmund Freud of the interwebs.

    Hate to tell you this genius, but you screwed up the moment you assumed I'm just out to upset others.

    To put in simply (because you seem to have a difficult time grasping basic concepts unless they're forcibly rammed down your throat) I'll make it simple for you.

    I don't care
    I don't care
    I don't care

    If the world burns because of it's own sheer stupidity? I don't care.
    If millions of Aussie pr0 Nv35ta's all go bankrupt? I don't care.
    If the country falls on it's own sword financially, economically and socially? I don't care.

    Until you can grasp the basic concept that I don't have any emotional investment in the outcome of the world around me, you're not going to understand me in the slightest.

    I AM focused on myself and that which I care about.

    I don't give a damn about you anymore than a bug under my shoe and you misinterpret that as 'aggression' towards others? Oh please.

    I only get ticked when derps like yourself assume authority to judge my character because I don't fall in line with your ideals, based on a loose understanding of objectivist ideology that you took a 5 minute crash course on reading a wiki.

    If I'm supposed to be impressed by your rhetoric Mitchell, trust me, I'm not.

    I can cross intellectual swords with the best of them sunshine and your misguided ramblings don't impress me in the slightest.

    So you can either stand on your misguided assumptions as proof definitive and walk away thinking you had a moral and ideological victory here undermining my point on the weak premise of hypocracy, or you can go back to the drawing board and realise that you don't know me from a bar of soap and look like an utter idiot trying to character assassinate a forum personality in relation to a fictional character from a book.

    Take your pick IMHO, but until you've walked a mile in my shoes d1ckhead, you don't reserve the right to judge me.
     
  8. Au-mageddon

    Au-mageddon Active Member

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    AusPM .. If you dont care as much as you say .. why keep responding to him ? :rolleyes:
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I don't respond well to bullies, intellectual or otherwise.

    I'm an idealist on my own principles, but no one is perfect.

    But for some ahole to come on here and try to openly character assassinate me like that on some misguided assumption & claim I'm just some hypocrite on my own principles and values? Well that just pisses me off.

    It's clear the passive - aggressive troll thinks he's a clever d1ck, but he should realise he's as easy to read as a book and I have very little patience for his type.

    Some people think that just because I'm an Objectivist I should be some sort of Ghandi-like idealistic figure and just roll with the punches from people who deliberately set out to antagonise me for it, but I assure you that I can still hold to ideals and knock idiots fair on their fcking arse in the same breath with a clear conscience too.
     
  10. Au-mageddon

    Au-mageddon Active Member

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    But can you do it in 30 words or less... :rolleyes:

    ***Sorry, couldnt resist***
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    To give it proper context?

    Probably not.

    Sometimes I forget those that read what I write have the attention span of a 3 year old.

    Mind you, I can write 1000 word essays and still lose many people in the translation.

    If I did it in 30 words or less, I'd get a LOT more 'wtf' moments than what I already do now.

    To be honest though, I really don't know why I even bother.

    I enjoy the social interaction of SS, but the constant attacks just grate on me I guess. :|
     
  12. unfunkable

    unfunkable Active Member

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    he certainly cares about the people ....

    he cares whether they burn in hell or not :D

    hows that book coming along? doing anything different these days to get out of the rat race?
     
  13. Mitchell

    Mitchell Member

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    You sound like a very angry man.

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSqKQgGjSb0#t=1511s[/youtube]

    If not me, who? I am judging you by your character because you are making claims which bring your character into question. In order to test your claims, I must evaluate how effectively you have applied your ideals to your own character. If you can't apply it to yourself, how do you expect any one else to?

    My reply was mainly about contrasting you to John Galt. When I did repeat my questions of what you have done to change yourself and society to better reflect your ideals, I did so using past tense. I ended those questions by confirming that there was still a contrast between you and your ideals, which was what I was talking about.

    As Au-mageddon pointed out, if you don't care, then why do you continue responding to me? Why do you talk to anyone at all? You communicate because you do care, and it's human nature to care - whether we care one way or another, we do care. Besides, you seem very passionate about this topic, since you have molded your values and beliefs around this philosophy. Your exasperated use of colourful language also suggests that you give slightly more than a damn.

    Your words sound aggressive. You acknowledge this aggression yourself: "Yeah, I edited it a bit and took out some of the aggro."

    I thought what you value is to be in line with reality? Isn't that the core principle of your objectivism?

    It's too long-winded for me to try and explain why you should care about my validation. It's long-winded because I know you do not seek my validation. But let me supply you with the fact that criminals often say the same thing. They say that no one can judge them (sometimes they say 'only god can judge me'). A violent murderer will say that he values his family, but that he doesn't value someone else's life, and that he couldn't give a damn about what others think. That is true, but is that what you want for society? It should be clear that in at least some cases, if not most, a consensus reality is useful. As an objectivist you should be more than aware of this, as it is the moral relativists who point to practices us Westerners would view as barbaric and say 'Who are you to judge?', 'What makes you think you can enforce your opinion on other cultures?'

    The fundamental principle of objectivism is that what applies to you, also applies to me. If you lock yourself away from others in your mind, you can form a rational, yet distorted picture of reality. Take Charles Manson for example.

    You make a very curious choice of words here. You say I assume the authority to judge you. That's interesting to me, because it ties in with the sadomasochism I was talking about before. You view yourself as a master.

    The information you've provided me with is ample enough to examine your ideals. I will remind you that it is you who said that if I wish to understand you, I was to watch that series of videos you provided. So I did, and so I discovered the divide between you and your ideals. The way you in which you have conducted yourself in this thread is the complete opposite of what you claim to be like.

    I'm just as imperfect and conceited as you are, but I'm not claiming to be a special snowflake. I'll let the others make their own conclusions whilst you make the conclusions for others.
     
  14. Au-mageddon

    Au-mageddon Active Member

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  15. fiatphoney

    fiatphoney New Member

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    Anyone for tennis?
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    *post removed*

    I seriously cbf with this trolling crap anymore. :|
     
  17. Chilli

    Chilli Member Silver Stacker

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    Damn, and I was looking forward to a deepening intellectual discourse :cool:
     
  18. renovator

    renovator Well-Known Member

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    Tennis ? turtle that i'm not leaving here until somones crying :lol: C'mon aus dont give up now
     
  19. silverfunk

    silverfunk New Member

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    Mitchell that video was epic
     
  20. fiatphoney

    fiatphoney New Member

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