Yes, but expect the price of Graded MS 70s to go up as the dealers become the only ones who get a chance to grade them. They start to see the lesser coins as a loss, e.g. if it isn't an MS70 then they can't get it graded so they can't get top dollar for it so they have wasted money buying it. They need to recoup that wasted money by putting the price of the MS70s up to cover the 'loss'. Graded cards are worth far more than the non graded cards in similar condition, it is still worth buying a sealed box in the hopes of finding a good card that you can send off for grading.
Amen Jis. For those concerned that my panties are in a wad, they are not. I'm totally content changing my strategy. I don't agree with how APMEX or any dealer doesn't disclose their approach to graded coins. I feel they are taking advantage of folks not aware enough to realize the chances of them buying, say a yellow bellied snake from APMEX (just an example), and getting it graded, with the hopes of landing a 70, is slim to none, since they've already been cherry picked. I think they should disclose...'we've been thru them, good luck in getting a grade higher than 68...probably ain't going to happen.' Listen, I'm over being p'od. They and others can do whatever they want. You want to give them your money, go for it. All the best to you. They ain't getting one red cent from me. They will only get my money when I know they've haven't touched my coins. You may not like this response...or perhaps your panties are in a wad....well, happy birthday to you, it's my money and I can choose to do with it whatever I want. Oh, and free speech is still alive and well. Amen.
^ Bob, unfortunately, I don't think any field of collecting is really any different than the world of coins. There are probably 10,000 people in the coin collecting field who don't care about ethics the way you and I might for every 1 that does....just like in the field of collector cards, stamps, comic books, and you name it. And yes, no doubt it is discouraging but I don't think it will change....human nature would have to first change and that ain't happenin', sadly....people are WAY too selfish I have come to understand. So, my point is, learn as much as you can, find out what you can and can not tolerate, buy what you believe is worth it, and try to make the best of a field of interest which is populated with imperfect and sometimes shady people. .
Indeed missing, you are right. I guess I should have known better. I'm just glad I asked and confirmed, because I seriously had NO IDEA. I do now, and will be acting accordingly. Who doesn't want to buy a raw coin for a little less money today, so that when 'tomorrow' brings a better day (more money), they can get the raw coin graded, with a chance of getting a 69/70? But based on what I heard today, that is not happening. And it's not right. I don't care what that dude says about driving a corvette blah, blah. but he's entitled to his opinion too. LOL.
On a slightly different note, I was chatting with another coin enthusiast a couple of weeks back and he told me that he believes that at some point, graded modern coins will lose favor with a lot of collectors and many will return to having greater interest in coins in OMP with COA's as opposed to coins in plastic slabs from companies like PCGS which have slapped on them dishonest labels like the one's which have fake signatures and the one's that claim "First Relesae" as just 2 examples. Personally, I do actually prefer collector coins in the OGP with the COA than in a TPG slab but I am not so much a fanatic (okay, purist ) that I don't have any slabbed coins. Any thoughts on this by those of you who buy collector (non-bullion) coins? Do you think slabbed coins will lose favor some day with a notable number of collectors? .
that is why I am concentrating on buying anything issued before 2010 ... better chances no one graded them before bringing the coin to me.
Incidentally, as a collector myself of the America The Beautiful 5 oz coins and someone who follows eBay auctions on these coins, here is one in the OGP with COA that seems to be fetching close to as much as a high graded slabbed coin of the same issue: http://www.ebay.com/itm/161312756828 This is not my auction nor do I even know the seller....just citing as a point of reference for sought after coins in OGP as opposed to slabbed.
I did think that it would be good to have a service like they have in trade cards, where they authenticate a card without grading it, just so you know it hasn't been messed with, without the cost of a full grading. Send your unbroken roll to the authenticators, they split it open and put each coin in a case, ungraded and send them all back, you can then sell guaranteed unsearched coins, if you want you can crack them open to send to a grader or keep them slabbed for resale. However I think it is too much plastic for one coin, and too much additional expense. Unless the mints get rid of the capsules and replace them with a tamperproof case I can't see it happenning. The Perth Mint and their new fangled security seal is a good example of what you can do if you want to. Personally I would like to see the coins still in capsules within the sealed tube, plastic is cheap and the coins aren't. A security sticker on each capsule might be an expensive request now but in the long run, if it increases confidence in your product, enables it to sell better than the competition, maybe it is worth looking into. Printing and sticky labels are cheap, attaching them to the capsules will probably cost a bit to set up but I think a lot more can be done, even with Bullion coins. You have limited edition Kooks for example or the Lunars. Stick them in a square case, put a numbered security sticker over one corner and another sticker with a bit more info on the other end. If people want to crack them open to get to the coin let them, but if you get offered two coins, one with a security seal on the case and one without, at least you know what you are getting and you can offer accordingly. Whatever happens it should be lead by the free market. If customers decide to buy direct from the mints in sealed rolls then companies will have to take a look at their processes and see if they need to change
I think one of the biggest benefits of the slabbed coins is that they know it has been thru the rigors of testing for purity and being genuine. Other than that, what's the big deal? Heck, I've heard they're now prying those slabs apart and putting in fakes, so who knows missing. Oh, and on a lighter note, APMEX just posted the crocs at under 23.00. Might have to buy a roll of 25. LOL. Don't they have security tape? Or is that just for the monster box?
It would be a massive generalisation to say that no one in Australia buys slabbed coins, but they don't. I have come across one coin shop in Sydney which only had slabbed coins, the others didn't seem to have any at all, but I didn't look that hard. I am a member of an Australian coin club and there is only one person in the club (around 50 members) who has coins in slabs and he is a dealer and only slabs them because investors want to have them graded by a third party. They just never really took off here, probably because you have to send your most valuable coins off to somewhere in America and hope they don't get stolen on the way there or the way back, plus the additional costs of postage and insurance put many people off. I offered to get a batch of coins from the members together so we could send them all in to see what the service was like but I had no takers.
Personally I think slabbed PCGS US modern numismatics are still pretty much in high demand. Looking at eBay's completed listings it is not difficult to see that PCGS PF69/70 slabs sold for pretty decent price. To quote a few: baseball coin, proof eagles, reverse proof Buff, 2009 double eagle. OGP pricing tends to be lower than the slabs. And at the other end of the world we have Chinese collectors going for NGC slabs, but mostly for modern Chinese numismatic coins and medals. Raw Chinese coins and medals tend to be sold cheaper than slabs. The rest of the world (Aussie, Canada, UK to name a few) collectors still prefer OGP/raw coins. I recently sold a Royal Mint coin on eBay for a higher price than my next competitor, which is a PF70 NGC slab.
Actually, those are very good points. Being an American, I forget how relatively pain free it is for Yanks to have coins authenticated/graded at the top 3 TPG companies. yhr0413 makes some equally good points regarding the Chinese and their preference for NGC over PCGS....NGC was smart to get some Chinese coin and medal experts on their team. And while TPG companies do work on making their slabs more foil proof, it's really only a matter of time I think before those who are making good profit from creating high quality fake TPG slabs will make fake slabs with labels that will pass muster with a lot of unsuspecting collectors. It's happened before and that's the reason why the TPG companies continue to invest in new slabs and new anti-counterfeit technology. .
barsenault I don't remember if you already mentioned it but you can add the Panda sheets of 30 to the list of coins that can't be cherry picked. I guess you actually could sort through the sheets and determine which have the most grade-worthy coins but your odds of getting at least 1 70 are higher if you purchase sheets at a time.
69 is very slightly inferior to perfect 70, likely very small imperfections which is visible under a loupe. Normal... Could be any grade from melt-condition to perfect-70
@Jislizard Hey this is MTG!! haha thanks for the post, it really clarify a lot about sealed box. [Dual-land prices increase will never stop?!! Congrats on your investment!] Sorry for the non-coin related post... wait I can fix this: I LOVE COINS!
The difference between a 69 and 70 is so slight that most collectors wouldn't be able to tell even with a loupe. In fact, I'd bet most collectors couldn't objectively tell the difference between a 66 and a 70 raw coin. If they owned the coin, it would subjectively be a 70 but if they were considering paying good money for the same coin, it subjectively becomes the 66. That subjectivity difference is why professional grading came into existence and provides a good service for those who care that much. But not everyone cares so much about getting a modern coin in 66 vs a 70 condition. I can only assume that most people who get coins directly from the mint don't check the coin with a high power loupe to see if they can detect a miniscule ding or couple of tiny nicks which might differentiate a 70 from a 67 or whatever. These are the majority of people I would imagine. My personal opinion on modern coins that I want to own is 1) if the coin is a collector coin that has a proof or special finish, is minted with care due to a special shape, design, or has embedded gems, I generally won't bother seeking out a graded version but 2) if the coin is a modern bullion coin that is not treated with any particular care by the mint, I might seek out high graded version. In other words, I'm generally much more impressed with an MS-70 than I am with a PF-70 coin and also more impressed with a collector coin (proof or special finish/embellishment) in OGP with COA than the same collector coin in a grading slab...generally. For example, I'd be much more interested in a Perth Mint silver proof kilo coin in the OGP than I would if the coin were in a grading slab. The only caveat to this general rule for me is if collector coins from a particular series are known to be minted with less than satisfactory care then I'd consider seeking out a graded version. That's one of the reasons why my first 2010 America The Beautiful 5 oz silver coin was a graded coin...I'd read in late 2012 that these coins (even the collector versions) were minted with not so much care as collectors would prefer. In subsequent years, apparently the US Mint stepped up the quality of production on these coins according to articles I've read. My 2014-P Smokey Mountain coin looks perfect even under a 5X loupe while my 2010 Hot Springs coin looks a little less impressive under the same magnification. In the end, ultimately, the market will determine how important it is to own a 69 or "perfect" 70 modern coin in a slab vs a perfectly fine looking modern coin in its OGP with COA.
Apmex is a bullion dealer, not a numismatics dealer. They have low premium bullion and high premium bullion, but it's all just bullion to them. If you want something that has numismatic value to it then buy from a numismatics dealer not a bullion dealer.
Even though they pretty clearly cherry pick it does not mean that the coins you are receiving have been cherry picked. It sort of depends on the coin in question and the volume of that item they move. The sell lots of bullion and some graded coins. When they send in for grading they get anything back that is less than a 69 and resell it as OGP...I think that much we can be confident in. The thing is when their volumes are at such a high level on an issue it is impractical to look at all the coins to see if they are worth grading. In all probability you are getting the next coins up. It is a different story on say a low mintage gold Libertad proof where if you don't get a graded one it is almost certain to be cherry picked....I normally order in roll multiples and just ask for mint sealed rolls to minimize my chances of getting cherry picked ones. They always oblige and if any coin is of notably poor quality they will accept a return in my experience.
