I spoke with them this morning, and finally had it 100% confirmed that they do in fact cherry pick their coins...all coins, and they pull out the 69/70's and pawn off to us, those that do not meet this grade, on the unsuspecting public. I've always wondered, and assumed they did, but now I had it 100% confirmed. I will no longer buy individual coins from them, and may stop all purchases of numi coins, unless I get them direct from the mint (??). If I order a roll of 20 kooks as an example, and they don't come in the perth mint plastic wrap, I send them back (on their dime) and get a refund or demand they send back a PM wrap. Now, the question I did not follow up with, which I will is, do they duplicate this exact wrap to make it appear it is from the PM. If so, that would be the ultimate deception. And if I found out that they did this, they would lose out on many thousands of ounces...because I would immediately stop doing any and all business with them. Sit tight, I'll be finding out in a few minutes. Anyway, all this to say, unless I get a written guarantee that this practice does not occur, or the coins I purchase are in genuine PM wrap (since these are the only coins I buy), I ain't making the purchase. Maybe you already knew this, or like me, suspected this to be the case; but now I know for certain this practice takes place, and will be making a change in my purchasing decisions. All the best. Bob A
Don't buy from the places that sell graded coins - it is sure as day and night that they are selling used and abused coins After I have discovered what MCM does I am not surprised any more ...
This is old news. That being said, I have bought individual coins that have come back as 69s. No 70s though. Bought a bunch of F15s from these guys- http://choicebullion.com/ Got great results--all 69/70s, so there are some honest retailers out there still
yepper, NEVER AGAIN. Just got off the phone with another manager (Brad), and they confirmed that they do NOT send to a 3rd party to get lunars or kooks shrink wrapped to give the appearance that it is from the PM. However, he too confirmed that in fact they do grade and then sell the 'scraps' to us scum. I will NEVER buy a numi again, unless I get a written guarantee they've not EXAMINED them in any way...otherwise I stick with shrink wrapped bullion: lunar, kooks, koalas, and now the sealed Crocs, but those seem hard for us to get here in the states...I'm probably done collecting, unfortunately. Probably not a bad decision anyway. BUT, I can't say that I'm not pissed that they don't disclose this!!!!!!!!!
It may be 'old news' to many here, but to us guys/gals that weren't in the 'know' yet, I thought I'd share 1st hand info so they can make educated decisions. By the way Justfishin...thanks for the info...I just tried that site, can't seem to get access to it. hmmm. I'll try again.
Yes, I confirmed 2 times to be certain. I feel I gave my all to 'peel away the onion' on what happens. I told them, that if they admitted they didn't implement such a practice, I wanted a written guarantee. Of course they admitted that they do in fact go thru them...on the numi and monster boxes...I will never buy anything that they can get their grubby hands on to examine a grade. I think this is very deceptive, especially considering there is no disclaimer. I put them in a very uncomfortable position, and could sense that these questions are rarely asked of them. I've always wonder...no more.
Geez barsenault first rule in coin collecting "Is never buy raw coins from a slab shop" This has been going on for years now. Modern Crap Mart is the worst and taken the modern coin market right to the bottom. I don't get how most people can't see whats going on when raw coins sold at cost are being sold right alongside graded coins at a premium. Of course they are cherry picked. I go out of my way to mention in my ads that I do not cherry pick coins - I do not sell raw coins along side graded ones. I hope one day the message gets thru to collectors - probably never will. I was distressed when some of the Australian Stock horses were being sold from the wholesaler in graded slabs, sets a bad precedent in my mind.
This is kind of obvious... You have a dealer which is selling coins in condition: Perfect, Near Perfect and "No details"... What do you expect the "No details" to be? This is your decision to make. Do you still buy from them or not? They will usually have the issue price available much longer than other dealers... but you are for sure receiving a <69 grade.
LOL. You seem a little frustrated with me. Sorry for not knowing this with 100% certainty. However, now I do, and will act accordingly. I buy quite a few coins a year, and I communicated loud and clear with APMEX today that I will be taking my major purchases elsewhere. Unless there is a compelling reason for me to buy a lunar or kook roll of 20 (in the wrap), they won't be getting any future business from me. This is pure and utter bullsh*t. I know they have the right, and so be it, they just won't be getting any more of my hard earned money. Nor will anyone else who doesn't supply that written guarantee. I guess the acid test is, if they sell the raw coin next the graded one, the chances are about 100% they've gone thru and cherry picked. No biggie. I'm cool with it. Just motivates me to stick with my initial plan anyway, only buy PM rolls of lunars, kooks or koalas; and now the crocs. That's it. And of course, I'll be making gold purchases from here on in too...not from APMEX. Anywhoo, I'm glad I finally took the time to climb the ladder and ask the right questions of APMEX today. And that they had the honesty to let me know the truth...although it didn't come out easily...and after my email, I'm sure they may try to recant their words. Oh, well, too late.
I never even suspected something like this would go on, though it goes on in other industries so I am not sure why I never put two and two together. You wouldn't have thought they would have time to go through them all but I guess at the prices they can charge for the slabbed coins it is worth their while to go through them one by one. Makes good business sense I guess, if they miss the odd one or two it doesn't cost them anything other than a lost opportunity and probably only adds a day or so delay between the stock turning up and being sent out to customers. Just another reason to buy sealed rolls rather than individual coins, sucks if you are trying to complete a set but I guess you can always crack the rolls, grade them yourself and sell the rest on.
The problem doing this, is that we're doing the exact thing that we hate. We pick out all the good ones, but then there will be some other sucker that buys the bad one, as long as it's not us. When selling these leftovers, no one will disclose that they're leftovers.
As some one wrote they don't pick the coins by themselves - they just send all bulk to grading companies, receive ms69 ms70s, the rest get back home ungraded ... that is why they don't have ms68s or lower in stock (while in fact they had to have them no matter how great their picking abilities are) That is why I think that time of grading modern coins has gone and grading companies are killing their market and cutting their profits. Very soon folks will realize that whatever they get from dealers and send to graders barely gets ms69, then they refuse sending the coins for grade, then they just quit the game.
Well said World. I won't be buying any more raw collectibles unless I get a written guarantee that they weren't cherry picked prior to reaching my hands, of course I won't get such a letter, which means no more for me. I'll stick with guaranteed packaging. For me, I'll pay more not to have cherry picked coins. It's really sad it has come to this. I'm actually worried about the baseball coins, you know? How do I know the 69/70's weren't cherry picked, and the 'less fortunate' sent back, and I get the hand me down??? I mean, seriously! I called the mint out in this, and they assured me this is not the case. But how do I know 100%? Afterall, I was probably speaking to a minimum wage worker taking orders! I'll be escalating my concerns at the mint for sure...especially after what I heard from APMEX. I know those 2 institution are different, but, I still have distrust.
If anyone is interested in only getting a "perfect" coin then that person shouldn't be buying ANY coin except a graded coin from a reputable TPG company. The simple fact is that there's no guarantee whatsoever that mint sealed rolls will contain a single coin that will grade above 68....none. Besides, any reputable dealer will accept returns of a raw coin so it's really no different in terms of the quality you are ASSURED to get than if you were buying directly from the mint. Dealers that do send in coins for grading and sell those that grade at less than perfect (69 or 70 for the sake of argument) have never asserted that they don't do this (not that I have seen). And the one's that do...how can we ever know for certain that they are telling the truth....it's so very easy to lie to customers in such matters. I don't condone dishonesty but you have to be smart about this and realize that most people worship the bottom line and don't care much or at all about ethics and being honest when it comes to making a profit. Really, it's simply buyer beware as in any other field. I don't automatically by default trust people who claim that they don't go through coins to check the quality. I will ONLY trust a person who I know personally or someone who has already proven them self to be different than most. Again, bottom line....you want a perfect coin? Get a graded coin. Want a coin that you will be happy with? Use a dealer or seller that accepts returns. Mints make ZERO guarantee that the coins you get directly from them are perfect coins.
I don't understand why this has you all in a snit. When they buy a box, it is their property, they keep what they like and sell the rest. Why is the subterfuge? When a Chevy dealer gets a load of corvettes, would you care if he drove all of them and keep the fastest for his wife? If a grocer keeps the best looking corn ears for himself, to bring home to his family, and sells the rest in his market would that bother you? (I personally know this happens) If you want the 'chance' of a 69/70 buy a sealed Monster box and hope for the best. Would you even be surprised if they had graders on-site to do the work in house? -bw
I think that there is an expectation that anyone selling their own coins has already picked the best ones for their own collection. Something that you may not expect from a company that doesn't have a coin collection. If you crack a roll, look at all the coins, pick the best one for your collection and sell the rest, as is, then I don't think you are acting in any way unethical. And encapsulated coins in mint condition are not 'bad' coins. If you crack a roll, send them off for third party grading, sell the 69 & 70s, and then dump the lower grades onto the market without mentioning that they have been cherry picked then sure you are acting in the same manner as a very sucessful business. But people who buy a whole roll are generally buying them with a view to reselling them at a later time, (unless you have a roll collection.) We might not like it but they are also going to try and get the most money they can for it, otherwise, why bother? You can argue about the ethics of it but I see little difference in this than in buying up a part of the market with the view of restricting their availability until the prices rise and people are forced to buy them from the secondry market at inflated prices. If it is ethics you are worried about, just buy the coins you need for your collection and leave the rest on the market so that other collectors can get a coin for their collection at issue price. But of course we all like to be 'wheeler dealers with a heart of gold' which is why few of us make as much money as APMEX, but we can consol ourselves knowing that we are ethically superior. Please bear in mind that my comments are because I have no interest in slabbed coins, I have no interest in the difference between a 67, 68, 69 or 70 coin because as long as it isn't covered in scratches or finger prints then it will sit quite happily in my collection. I generally only buy one of each coin because I like to have one in the collection when they are issued, but I also buy a whole roll of Lunars when they come out. I do this because I intend to sell them for a lot of money when they become scarce, I will attempt to get as much money as I can but I won't be bothering to get them slabbed or even bothering to grade them myself, I understand that I could get more money for them this way but I would hate you to confuse lazyness with ethics. If I was a proper dealer I would do it properly.
That came across as a bit negative and a bit like I didn't care about the problem becuase it doesn't directly affect me, so apologies for that. As I mentioned I knew this was being done in other hobbies and it has completely changed the way the hobby operates. I collect trade cards, they come in a box of 36 packs, 15 cards in pack, about $5 per pack. Somewhere within those 540 cards will be possibly 2-3 really good cards. If you get those cards (let alone the randomly inserted foil versions) you could pretty much cover the cost of the whole box, the rest of the cards you could sell and it would just be a bonus. Except most of the other cards are common and you might be lucky to get 10 cents each for them plus they are really common and most people won't bother to buy them off you as they have enough. You can get even more money if you grade the cards straight out of the pack. However the good cards are not randomly inserted, they are printed on big sheets of about 121 cards, they are then stacked in order and inserted into the packs in order. If you open enough packs in order, you can work out the sequence, once you know the sequence you can open any pack in another box and from the card inside you can predict where the next decent card is likely to be found. Back in 1993 when the cards were first released, you bought a couple of packs, if you were rich you bought a whole box. You never noticed the patterns forming. But dealers bought lots of packs and opened them to find the good cards for individual sale, back then the cards weren't common so you could easily sell all the left overs. After opening lots of packs they noticed the patterns, they knew which cards would get the most money, and they knew they would be able to find them in new boxes. So they bought cases (The equivalent of Monster Boxes) and they were pretty much the only outlets, you couldn't buy the packs directly from the company, you had no choice but to buy packs which had already been cherry picked. None of the collectors knew about this for many years, thought many suspected something was amis. Eventually someone published a book, with all the sequences mapped out. They figured that ordinary people had a right to know what the dealers already knew, to level the playing field (and make a few bucks) So now when you go on eBay and you see a box with 28 packs in it, you have to wonder, who sells a mostly full box, and why do they have so many of them, what are my chances of getting a good card from this box? Completely changed the market! The price of single packs dropped because most people assume they are from a box that has been mapped. If people wanted a good card they no longer bought packs to open in the hopes of getting one, now they just buy the card on the secondary market. The prices of sealed boxes went through the roof. A box I bought back in 2010 for $800 (original 1995 price of $150) is now selling for $1600, sold as individual packs you would get around $1400. So dealers found that the market for single packs dropped and they were harder to shift. They knew there was no point in opening them because all the good cards had been found and a sealed pack is worth $5 and an opened pack is worth $2 to them. There are now plenty of them being dumped on eBay at some pretty good prices, less than you can get them in the shops, and still plenty of people willing to buy them, mostly I suspect in the hopes of getting a good card, or you can also play a version which involves opening new packs when it is actually beneficial to the game to have all the good cards removed, otherwise the person who opens the good card unbalances the whole game.. Where there is money to be made you will find people willing to do whatever they can to get it. In the trade card world it is even worse because the cards aren't all roughly the same, some are exceptional, the rest are rubbish, you get a coin graded at 67 and it is still a nice looking coin, you get a jank rare card and it is worthless. Anyway, it changed the whole industry and I see the same thing happenning with coins, single coins will not get as much money from dealers because people will assume they are not going to grade higher than 67. Sealed rolls will go for an additional premium. If you want an MS70 coin you will go out and buy it rather than the expense of going through hundreds of singles looking for one which has been missed.
^^ Thank you ... I am glad that my logic works in right direction regarding coins and graders. I say let them hurt themselves.
