Would you rather have pure 999 silver or a tarnish-resistant silver alloy?

[Alloy]

Hi all -- Take a look at Argentium Silver to see what I mean. It comes in 935 and 960 fineness. 935 exceeds the sterling standard (925), and 960 exceeds the classic Britannia standard (958). Argentium is much more tarnish resistant than 999 or 9999 fine silver. There are other alloys like Argentium, such as Sterlium and Silvadium. See this breakdown. They're all designed to be worked by jewelry makers, melted, reformed, etc.

I think the key alloying metal is germanium. Argentium seems to be relatively popular for jewelry (you can buy it at Rio Grande, which I think is a major jewelers' supply outfit.)

Would you rather have bars and rounds made of this? I'm leaning yes. They're also harder and less scratch prone, and the metal looks great.

Problem: They probably charge some kind of licensing fee, which would increase the premiums on these things.

Non-problem: You'd still get a full ounce of silver (or 10 ounces or whatever). Alloys used in PM bullion are typically handled in such a way that the coin or bar contains the full amount of silver or gold – thus they weigh a bit more than an ounce. See the American Gold Eagle and the Krugerrand, or the pre-2012 silver Britannias, which were 958.

 

[SlyGuy]

...you can buy it at Rio Grande, which I think is a major jewelers' supply ...

You think?

When you are clearly an owner or partner or advertiser who is spamming for the Argganium stuff, you think you'd know.

 

[GoldenEye]

You think?

When you are clearly an owner or partner or advertiser who is spamming for the Argganium stuff, you think you'd know.

I think you've been a bit quick in judging Alloy. Maybe you should have asked if he has any relationship to the sellers.

 

[Alloy]

I think you've been a bit quick in judging Alloy. Maybe you should have asked if he has any relationship to the sellers.

Thanks GoldenEye. I'm a social scientist in California who is thinking about precious metals a lot lately, and might possibly go into the business. I have no connection to Argentium or Rio Grande. I think Rio Grande is a major seller is all I was saying. I'm kind of annoyed with Argentium because they patented silver-germanium alloys when I've found a report from the Bureau of Standards referring to the tarnish resistance of such alloys back in the 1920s. (The BofS was the predecessor to America's NIST.) I think it may be possible to invalidate their patents.

When I first bought silver a couple of years ago, I put the flips in a sock drawer. A few months later the Maples were tarnished. This was stunning to me. I thought only sterling silver tarnished, not 999 or 9999 pure silver. And they tarnished so easily, in a cool, dark place mostly covered in plastic but for one open end. And I don't live on the coast or anything, so salt wasn't an issue. This was my rude awakening to the fact that brand new silver can tarnish quickly if it's not in a capsule or ziploc bag. Hence my interest in tarnish-resistant alloys. (My username Alloy might be related to this, but I don't remember why exactly I chose it...)

 

[Alloy]

You think?

When you are clearly an owner or partner or advertiser who is spamming for the Argganium stuff, you think you'd know.

As I explained above, I have no connection to any of these firms. There's no product to buy anyway – no one makes bullion in one of these alloys (yet).

 

[Alloy]

I looked it up. Man that stuff looks gorgeous, like it would make lovely coins and bars.

By the way, what does Pty mean at the end of a company's name in Australia? They say "A&E Metals Pty Limited".

 

[Eureka Moments]

Can't wait to see the bars and rounds for sale. Im at my wits end trying to deal with tarnishing issues. Many of my .999 things have been affected, even the stuff that I don't keep unsealed in my sock drawer. I would likely be willing to pay massive retail prices for a special stack stuff like this and spend the rest of my days cursing the Mints and Dealers who sold .999 silver without telling anyone about future tarnish possibilities.

 

[Alloy]

For those interested in metallurgy, here's a paper (PDF) on hardening pure silver through severe plastic deformation (SPD). You don't necessarily need an alloy to achieve greater hardness, though you still need an alloy for tarnish-resistance.

For SPD, they usually take a small billet. For coins and bars, I'm not sure how they would go about SPD, or at what stage in the process they would do it. It's interesting to think about.

 

[Ipv6Ready]

Argentum is a trademarked product.
I can see jewellery or table service using it, but I doubt it would be used for bullion.

For any modern silversmith it would be idiotic not use argentum, but the consumer doesn’t know what it is.... a catch 22 situation

End of the day for a modern silver service or jewellery the cost of metal is miniscule, so I doubt the cost is an issue rather than recognistion

 

[SlyGuy]

Argentum is a trademarked product.
I can see jewellery or table service using it, but I doubt it would be used for bullion...

Yes, any lesser alloy will be relegated to statues, artsy coins, tools, etc.

Bullion will always be 999 or better... that's what comex contracts are sold in and what industry uses.

 

[alor]

it can be 999 with protective layer

just like Chinese Jade layer with gold sheet

 

[Bullion Baron]

935 & 960 doesn't meet the requirement for a GST exemption, so wouldn't interest me for bullion. However, I wouldn't mind paying a little extra for an occasional collector piece with this alloy if it stopped the tarnishing.

 

[Alloy]

Argentum is a trademarked product.
I can see jewellery or table service using it, but I doubt it would be used for bullion.

End of the day for a modern silver service or jewellery the cost of metal is miniscule, so I doubt the cost is an issue rather than recognistion

Yes, Argentium is trademarked (and patented), but there are other tarnish-resistant sterling silvers that use germanium (Argentium's key ingredient) – e.g. Silvadium and Sterlium. In fact, I found reference to silver-germanium alloy as a tarnish-resisting metal back in a 1920s Bureau of Standards document, so it might be possible to invalidate the current patents by Argentium and others.

And we could still make bullion out of Argentium or any of the others. It would just be a matter of cost. Margins on silver bullion seem thin, and Argentium and the like would probably add a dollar or more to 1 oz. pieces. Some people would be happy to pay for it, but I don't know how many.

 

[Alloy]

935 & 960 doesn't meet the requirement for a GST exemption, so wouldn't interest me for bullion. However, I wouldn't mind paying a little extra for an occasional collector piece with this alloy if it stopped the tarnishing.

It's frustrating that these laws stipulate a particular fineness. It's not good law – they shouldn't stifle innovation or be concerned with details of that sort. A good rewrite of the laws would focus on the metal, not the fineness. So I would exempt, say, 110% of the spot price – any cost above that would mean the piece had more value than just its silver content, and that increment would be taxed as normal. I'd let people invest in precious metals in any form they wished, including jewelry, with the ability to exempt 110% of the melt value.

 

[sodl]

I have purchased 9999 silver wire from A & E Metals last year to make colloidal silver and made a couple of L shape divining rods.
I also had an idea I wanted to get my own 999 silver coins made up so I asked Perth Mint and they said yes but there was a min order quantity of about 50,000.
I asked A & E Metals if they could produce coins for me and the answer was YES and there was no minimum a/m. I never went ahead with anything.
A & E Metals are connected with Australian Bullion Co. I also asked ABC about making up coins and they said no.
So give A & E a call and see if they will make you Argentium coins of your design or maybe they could make blank 999 silver coins and put a thin layer of Argentium on as a protective layer at an extra cost I would assume.

Cheers