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Would I buy Islamic state coins? Not a chance. The same goes for nazi coins.
Would You Own An ISIS Coin? Gold, Silver & Copper ISIS Currency
- Thread starter DailySilverStacker
- Start date
I wouldn't buy a coin from the middle east anyway. Not for racist reasons its just that should I want to check the writing, without roman based script I have no way of doing that.
That said, I an not interested in Nazi coins either.
That said, I an not interested in Nazi coins either.
I collect Nazi coins - they are history. They help tell a story. And as pointed out earlier in the thread, they are not a current organisation, therefore they don't derive any support from it. History is history, and it is worth knowing and remembering what it is that people have done. How did normal people end up endorsing the Nazi program? Are we susceptible to it? Good people and bad equally handled those Nazi coins in circulation - how did a Jew feel handling this currency to buy food? And I'd own a Roman sword, knowing that it had probably killed people, without a qualm, or a genuine Samurai sword, equally.
ISIS coins - I would own them as a piece of history, but buying them whilst ISIS is still a current organisation would rather make me think that I was tacitly supporting their agenda. And effectively I would be, since they would be taking the "hard currency" from me that they could use to buy more weapons, etc.
ISIS coins - I would own them as a piece of history, but buying them whilst ISIS is still a current organisation would rather make me think that I was tacitly supporting their agenda. And effectively I would be, since they would be taking the "hard currency" from me that they could use to buy more weapons, etc.
Nothing wrong with ASEs either........phrenzy said:
AngloSaxon said:
Is that where all that German Gold in US storage went?
A bit of trivia............ (1) the Third Reich did not mint any gold coin currency (2) the only silver coin currency minted by the Third Reich were 2 Reichsmark and 5 Reichsmark coins from 1936-1939. No silver coins were produced by the Third Reich after 1939.The Crow said:
http://just-another-inside-job.blogspot.com.au/2007/04/nazi-medal-commemorating-zionist.html
Source: http://www.henrymakow.com/israeli_haganah.html
For all we know, the USA might be using German gold to create the ISIS coins.
But yeah, why not let your conditioned nationalism derive "truth" from the media, and react according to the script?
Source: http://www.henrymakow.com/israeli_haganah.html
For all we know, the USA might be using German gold to create the ISIS coins.
But yeah, why not let your conditioned nationalism derive "truth" from the media, and react according to the script?
Yes I would buy them. Yes I would order them online in full knowledge that NSA is spying on me. For all the rights and wrongs various groups are doing in the world today this is the only one to propose a metals based currency. In my eyes that makes the one step more moral than ASE's. Both groups are warmongering terrorist organisations occupying foreign sovereign territory. While the US has made no attempt to challenge the global cabal of bankers these guys have and for that I take my hat off to them.
GoldExchange.com
Member
These coins will have major historical significance in the future.
Don't know if it was real but I would not take one even I it was offered for free.
ISIS disgust me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNgaalRXO8c
"Acting upon the orders of ISIS, a father along with other men stoned his own daughter to death in the deserts of Syria"
Anyone who thinks they are ok because they ran some stunt with PM coins needs their head examined.
ISIS disgust me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNgaalRXO8c
"Acting upon the orders of ISIS, a father along with other men stoned his own daughter to death in the deserts of Syria"
Anyone who thinks they are ok because they ran some stunt with PM coins needs their head examined.
Oldsoul said:
Nobody thinks they are ok. I'm a history student and I probably know more than most about the atrocities of the Nazi and Soviet regimes but I collect numismatics from those periods. They're historical reminders, curiosities and although they aren't to be taken lightly I don't think anyone is necessarily supporting our empathising with them, or ISIS, by owning a coin. It's big history, it would be a lie to say that it isn't a part of something interesting, a reminder of something awful, but also interesting. They are proof that you can hold in your hand that these terrible things are real, not abstract and distant, that they really exist.
So long as it isn't directly funding ISIS I don't see why you shouldn't own one.
Oldsoul said:
Indeed. I just don't tend to classify every act of an evil entity as automatically being an evil act.
I'm sure ISIS also sleeps and goes to the toilet. I'm also sure that I'm not evil for sleeping or going to the toilet.
Evil is evil. Good is good. Mundane is mundane. Don't confuse the actor with the act.
windsurfing
New Member
phrenzy said:
But how would you get those coins? Either from ISIS directly or from a dealer, who would have dealt with ISIS (or another dealer who would have dealt with ISIS or another dealer... etc), the point is that ISIS would have earned the money from your demand for the coin, and as such you have indirectly funded them, whether it was your intention or not. Transactions of items from past regimes would not fund them, as they're already gone. The key argument is that ISIS is still active. They will use that money for their own purposes, whatever that may be. Or is there something I am missing here..?
If you want something to remind you of the horrors, I would think a photograph of their actions would be more effective, but that's just me. No offence intended to anyone.
Following that logic, buying a Nazi coin today still funds the Nazis of old. Someone paid for it back then, and that person got paid by someone else for it, then this happened until someone today paid for it.
How many hands does it have to pass through to be a moral purchase? How many years? How long after their defeat? Either way, the price paid tracks back to the origin.
Assuming a belief is that gold has more inherent value than fiat, wouldn't the purchase be an act of defunding their real wealth?
Also assuming that reports of seed funding from western interests led to the monster they've become, are we not all already complicit through our tax payments?
If we truly want to end the support of violent entities like ISIS, we should stop all funding of foreign intervention, and stop supporting the fiat banking system that perpetuates and profits from this conflict at the financial and physical cost of individuals regardless of race or religion. Transferring your fiat into gold is a good start, though there may be more morally palatable versions than an ISIS coin. ASEs may be considered to support the violent excess of western interests by some, all depends on the angle you stand at in relation to the big picture.
FWIW, my first coin was an ASE, and I have a few "America the Beautiful" coins. I have mostly PAMP, which I guess could be seen as supporting a nation who ended up with gold plundered by the Nazis. Maybe my Perth Mint products mean I'm racist.
How many hands does it have to pass through to be a moral purchase? How many years? How long after their defeat? Either way, the price paid tracks back to the origin.
Assuming a belief is that gold has more inherent value than fiat, wouldn't the purchase be an act of defunding their real wealth?
Also assuming that reports of seed funding from western interests led to the monster they've become, are we not all already complicit through our tax payments?
If we truly want to end the support of violent entities like ISIS, we should stop all funding of foreign intervention, and stop supporting the fiat banking system that perpetuates and profits from this conflict at the financial and physical cost of individuals regardless of race or religion. Transferring your fiat into gold is a good start, though there may be more morally palatable versions than an ISIS coin. ASEs may be considered to support the violent excess of western interests by some, all depends on the angle you stand at in relation to the big picture.
FWIW, my first coin was an ASE, and I have a few "America the Beautiful" coins. I have mostly PAMP, which I guess could be seen as supporting a nation who ended up with gold plundered by the Nazis. Maybe my Perth Mint products mean I'm racist.
windsurfing
New Member
Sorry, long post incoming:
I don't know enough about how the fiat banking system causes profiteering from conflicts, but I will address your other points. After the Nazi regime (lets just take them for example), all funding that was generated to their 'memorabilia' was already sunk. It can't be taken back. Its wasn't moral to purchase them when they were still getting money from them, but since they are gone, any transactions about their stuff do not affect them. The demand for their stuff would not cause them to earn any money, but the same can't be said for ISIS. ISIS would just mint more coins, and gain more money from it. They might even mint a proof or high relief version
. But jokes aside, money directed towards them and their products will certainly help them. I would think if one really wanted to get one of the coins, they could wait till after the regime is certain to be gone. No strict amount of time to adhere to.
Items do not carry any moral weight, but the actions revolving around them do.
The belief that gold has more inherent value than fiat is an interesting one. However, it does not contribute to the argument until it really happens (i.e. all fiat currency in the world gets massively devalued, precious metals get really expensive and become the new, or rather, original currency). And when that will happen is very up to debate. Some say it will happen in a few months. A year. Some have been saying it will happen in a year for several years now. The point is that we don't know if it will happen, and if it does, when. I am certain you have your own research to back your belief, but lets agree to disagree for this point. I don't think it can be used as an argument if it can't really be proven that it will happen.
Anyway even if the intention in buying their coins is to remove their gold holdings, it is under the assumption that they can't just buy gold from someone else. Its not like they will have a net outflow of PMs from their coin minting. They will also probably buy them at a price lower than what they sell their stuff for.
Its plausible that some western (could be Asian, African, European or any country, really) countries have links to ISIS, and lets say country X does so. Then yeah, perhaps one could argue so, but would be the alternative? Not paying tax and going to jail? So the options are: either indirectly fund ISIS, or go to jail/suffer from fines and persecution. That's a tough decision, and I think something that is hard to debate. But for the ISIS coins? Either buy ISIS coins, or something else? To put it more distastefully: Fund ISIS indirectly or don't. I think that provides a much clearer option to take. To quote Peter Singer: "If it is in our power to prevent something bad from happening, without thereby sacrificing anything of comparable moral importance, we ought, morally, to do it."
I think there should be a distinction between knowing the direct implications behind your purchases, and going down the slippery slope of extrapolating everything to anything. Yes, the Swiss banks in the past did have gold resulting from Nazi actions (think they didn't allow gold withdrawals from Jews or something?). But that doesn't mean that buying gold from them now is supporting their unscrupulous ways now. You aren't going to fund their gold hoarding ways (well, assuming they don't actually do that now, but if you believe Switzerland as a country (or most parts of) will, then sure, don't buy Swiss stuff) from buying PAMP stuff at this point of time. Again, the same cannot be said for ISIS coins.
I like PAMP stuff too
Though the premiums are really high.
Anyway there seems to have been a lawsuit to provide remuneration for those people. It may not be enough, but at least there's some semblance of closure. PAMP doesn't seem to be linked to those Swiss Banks anyway (I don't actually know this, please advise if I am mistaken).
Without considering this seemingly unusual argument, I'm not sure how the buy-Perth-Mint-stuff-means-racist point correlates to the point I'm making. Unless Perth Mint secretly propagates nationalist and Australian supremacist sentiments (which I'm pretty sure they don't).
P.S. Not too sure what FWIW stands for, does it mean something like "just so you know"?
TL
R What I'm saying is that ISIS is still alive and kicking, and benefiting from your buying of their stuff, unlike other entities/organisations who have died out/ stopped their unethical ways (purportedly). What funds that was gone into those other groups have already been sunk into them, and transacting them now is not going to help them, unlike the ISIS coins.
I don't know enough about how the fiat banking system causes profiteering from conflicts, but I will address your other points. After the Nazi regime (lets just take them for example), all funding that was generated to their 'memorabilia' was already sunk. It can't be taken back. Its wasn't moral to purchase them when they were still getting money from them, but since they are gone, any transactions about their stuff do not affect them. The demand for their stuff would not cause them to earn any money, but the same can't be said for ISIS. ISIS would just mint more coins, and gain more money from it. They might even mint a proof or high relief version
. But jokes aside, money directed towards them and their products will certainly help them. I would think if one really wanted to get one of the coins, they could wait till after the regime is certain to be gone. No strict amount of time to adhere to. Items do not carry any moral weight, but the actions revolving around them do.
The belief that gold has more inherent value than fiat is an interesting one. However, it does not contribute to the argument until it really happens (i.e. all fiat currency in the world gets massively devalued, precious metals get really expensive and become the new, or rather, original currency). And when that will happen is very up to debate. Some say it will happen in a few months. A year. Some have been saying it will happen in a year for several years now. The point is that we don't know if it will happen, and if it does, when. I am certain you have your own research to back your belief, but lets agree to disagree for this point. I don't think it can be used as an argument if it can't really be proven that it will happen.
Anyway even if the intention in buying their coins is to remove their gold holdings, it is under the assumption that they can't just buy gold from someone else. Its not like they will have a net outflow of PMs from their coin minting. They will also probably buy them at a price lower than what they sell their stuff for.
Its plausible that some western (could be Asian, African, European or any country, really) countries have links to ISIS, and lets say country X does so. Then yeah, perhaps one could argue so, but would be the alternative? Not paying tax and going to jail? So the options are: either indirectly fund ISIS, or go to jail/suffer from fines and persecution. That's a tough decision, and I think something that is hard to debate. But for the ISIS coins? Either buy ISIS coins, or something else? To put it more distastefully: Fund ISIS indirectly or don't. I think that provides a much clearer option to take. To quote Peter Singer: "If it is in our power to prevent something bad from happening, without thereby sacrificing anything of comparable moral importance, we ought, morally, to do it."
I think there should be a distinction between knowing the direct implications behind your purchases, and going down the slippery slope of extrapolating everything to anything. Yes, the Swiss banks in the past did have gold resulting from Nazi actions (think they didn't allow gold withdrawals from Jews or something?). But that doesn't mean that buying gold from them now is supporting their unscrupulous ways now. You aren't going to fund their gold hoarding ways (well, assuming they don't actually do that now, but if you believe Switzerland as a country (or most parts of) will, then sure, don't buy Swiss stuff) from buying PAMP stuff at this point of time. Again, the same cannot be said for ISIS coins.
I like PAMP stuff too
Though the premiums are really high. Anyway there seems to have been a lawsuit to provide remuneration for those people. It may not be enough, but at least there's some semblance of closure. PAMP doesn't seem to be linked to those Swiss Banks anyway (I don't actually know this, please advise if I am mistaken).
Without considering this seemingly unusual argument, I'm not sure how the buy-Perth-Mint-stuff-means-racist point correlates to the point I'm making. Unless Perth Mint secretly propagates nationalist and Australian supremacist sentiments (which I'm pretty sure they don't).
P.S. Not too sure what FWIW stands for, does it mean something like "just so you know"?
TL
R What I'm saying is that ISIS is still alive and kicking, and benefiting from your buying of their stuff, unlike other entities/organisations who have died out/ stopped their unethical ways (purportedly). What funds that was gone into those other groups have already been sunk into them, and transacting them now is not going to help them, unlike the ISIS coins.
FWIW = For what it's worth. I agree that the Nazi product is further removed from the party profit, but following the chain of transactions, funds filter back even after the fact. I wouldn't buy a coin directly from ISIS or anyone who seemed to be raising funds for their cause, but once a collector or dealer has it for sale the "funding terrorism" ship has already sailed. Just like the Nazis have already spent theirs and lost from the original payment all those years ago.
"The items do not carry any moral weight" - I totally agree. And yes, the actions do. I just see the item a little more removed from the actions, assuming I didn't buy them directly from ISIS or a sympathiser or a returning veteran. People seem to have no problem buying Zimbabwe dollars though.
You may have noticed the use of conditional statements (Asumming... Maybe... Could be...), which was intended to indicate I don't necessarily hold these beliefs, though they could be argued. Maybe ISIS would see trading ASEs as treasonous, I have no idea.
My other points (PAMP, Perth Mint etc) are just an extension of this fuzzy logic. Unfortunately Aussies have a reputation for having racism by not only our neighbors but some our allies as well. Though we do have elements that could be characterised as such, our "stop the boats" rhetoric and casual use of derogatives opens us to the accusations. I disagree as the citizens of the nation are misrepresented by a few and our leadership don't help any. Calling a someone racist based on their nationality is a bit ironic too.
I have no idea if PAMP was connected to the Nazi banks or not, but using simple word association NAZI/GOLD/SWISS are very proximate, even after all these years. I'm fairly sure Jewish stackers don't avoid PAMP but I could be wrong, maybe some do.
Arguments could be made about Nazi "ethics" still being active (though underground), and the export of some of it's science and ideology still affecting the citizens of the victor nations. Ample testimony exists relating to western funding of ISIS, which is no surprise; we pumped and dumped Saddam and Osama too. It is a sad fact that we face sacrifice of freedom for moral objection to how the tax we pay has been spent but it is what it is. Same applies to our involvement the fiat system which enriches those who profit from the wars since before the days of Hitler. The only difference with an ISIS coin is we have a choice.
The fiat vs gold as value is an old argument. It all rests on perception, and the argument will continue long after we die. Though I favour gold over fiat, it has more to do with a lack of moral support for fractional reserve banking and the "lend to countries for war, charge the citizen and their offspring via tax to pay interest" way of that system. Those that control fiat grow rich while we fight and for long after. Alternatively, though I have some environmental concerns with mining, it supports my local economy (and apparently the rest of the nation via GST sleight of hand). I don't anticipate gold overthrowing fiat anytime soon, but I don't see it becoming worthless either. In the meantime, at least holding it prevents me from contributing to fractional reserve lending and the billion dollar profits of banks.
I appreciate the time you took to read, consider, and reply saliently though. It sure beats a snap prejudicial response. I'm not posting a WTB for an ISIS coin, but if I could get one for less than spot from a bloke I was sure didn't intend to use the proceeds on funding violent actions, I'd definitely consider it.
"The items do not carry any moral weight" - I totally agree. And yes, the actions do. I just see the item a little more removed from the actions, assuming I didn't buy them directly from ISIS or a sympathiser or a returning veteran. People seem to have no problem buying Zimbabwe dollars though.
You may have noticed the use of conditional statements (Asumming... Maybe... Could be...), which was intended to indicate I don't necessarily hold these beliefs, though they could be argued. Maybe ISIS would see trading ASEs as treasonous, I have no idea.
My other points (PAMP, Perth Mint etc) are just an extension of this fuzzy logic. Unfortunately Aussies have a reputation for having racism by not only our neighbors but some our allies as well. Though we do have elements that could be characterised as such, our "stop the boats" rhetoric and casual use of derogatives opens us to the accusations. I disagree as the citizens of the nation are misrepresented by a few and our leadership don't help any. Calling a someone racist based on their nationality is a bit ironic too.
I have no idea if PAMP was connected to the Nazi banks or not, but using simple word association NAZI/GOLD/SWISS are very proximate, even after all these years. I'm fairly sure Jewish stackers don't avoid PAMP but I could be wrong, maybe some do.
Arguments could be made about Nazi "ethics" still being active (though underground), and the export of some of it's science and ideology still affecting the citizens of the victor nations. Ample testimony exists relating to western funding of ISIS, which is no surprise; we pumped and dumped Saddam and Osama too. It is a sad fact that we face sacrifice of freedom for moral objection to how the tax we pay has been spent but it is what it is. Same applies to our involvement the fiat system which enriches those who profit from the wars since before the days of Hitler. The only difference with an ISIS coin is we have a choice.
The fiat vs gold as value is an old argument. It all rests on perception, and the argument will continue long after we die. Though I favour gold over fiat, it has more to do with a lack of moral support for fractional reserve banking and the "lend to countries for war, charge the citizen and their offspring via tax to pay interest" way of that system. Those that control fiat grow rich while we fight and for long after. Alternatively, though I have some environmental concerns with mining, it supports my local economy (and apparently the rest of the nation via GST sleight of hand). I don't anticipate gold overthrowing fiat anytime soon, but I don't see it becoming worthless either. In the meantime, at least holding it prevents me from contributing to fractional reserve lending and the billion dollar profits of banks.
I appreciate the time you took to read, consider, and reply saliently though. It sure beats a snap prejudicial response. I'm not posting a WTB for an ISIS coin, but if I could get one for less than spot from a bloke I was sure didn't intend to use the proceeds on funding violent actions, I'd definitely consider it.