Would You Be Demanding Too (Provident Metals)?

[barsenault]

Suffice it to say, I won't order from these guys again. They lost out on a lot of dough from me. :/ These aren't your typical bullion coins, mind you. These are proofs, collectibles, numi coins, and they're trying to tell me it doesn't matter (on the phone), or I'm too demanding (email below). Seriously? And the guy Chris below, attempts to tell me he's a collector of coins. Um, I have nearly **** thousands of ounces (more than 3, less than 6 LOL)...and a lot of them are collectibles, and I've tried to sell some with spots, and got nailed. And he's trying to tell me it doesn't matter??? Seriously? These guys are nuts I tell you. It doesn't matter if you want to lose money when you go to sell.

How would you feel if you paid $450.00 more than your typical PM Horse or Goat Kilo??? My email on the bottom, and his/their response. Enjoy. And that's a heads up for those who LOVE Provident. Sorry, I'll stick with APMEX. I've never been questioned on returns from them. Yes, I pay a little extra, MOST of the time, but I don't care, it's worth it the peace of mind that if a coin comes riddled with white snow, YES, even BULLION, they will exchange, refund or allow you to buy a different coin. #nowthatisawesome

Nick on coin: Click on Picture to Enlarge


Spots on coin: Click on Picture to Enlarge




Chris Spitzenberger (Provident Metals)
Oct 14 09:47 AM

I requested a return label for him already. I think your right though. He expects way too much. (and he is demanding on the calls).

Kind Regards,
Chris Spitzenberger
Senior Account Executive
Phone: (800) 313 - 3315 Opt 3
Fax: 469-212-8977
Email: [email protected]
Web: www.providentmetals.com (http://www.providentmetals.com/)



From: Bob
Oct 13 07:53 PM
Hey there, if this was a pure bullion coin, perhaps I wouldn't be so finicky, but these are at a costly premium, and a collectible, and I specifically asked for no spots or nicks (read my order). I'm a little nervous exchanging these like for like. I'd like to talk to someone.
Actually, I was planning on buying 13 more of these at the end of the month. No more. I'm not thrilled about seeing spots and nicks on a collectible coin. I will call you first thing in the morning 10/14, or feel free to call me. You should see the obvious nick, and the obvious staining...and we know how stains on the pandas work, right? Once you see one, in time, it will be riddled with snow.
Please send me an RMA number, and I'll ship these to you. Not happy about having to ship these back at my cost. As a matter of fact, I'm either going to ask for a refund or put the funds into a different bullion kilo coin, because as you can probably appreciate, I won't be a happy camper if exchange these 2 only to get 2 more with issues...plus, I already have one on order, that you'll be shipping out. Good thing you have my funds on that one, because if I saw these 2 issues before my order, I wouldn't have moved forward with the purchase. #disappointed.
Happy about the other 5 of course. But with a charge of more than 400.00 more than my favorite bullion, the Perth Mint Goats and Horses, it's disappointing.

 

[yrh0413]

they don't deserve your business. Send the defective coins back to Provident and take your business elsewhere.

As a coin collector myself I demand nothing less than perfect if I am buying from a large dealer like PM/APMEX.

 

[db23]

they don't deserve your business. Send the defective coins back to Provident and take your business elsewhere.

As a coin collector myself I demand nothing less than perfect if I am buying from a large dealer like PM/APMEX.

If you demand perfect then you have no business buying a coin that hasn't been graded MS/PF 70.

 

[barsenault]

they don't deserve your business. Send the defective coins back to Provident and take your business elsewhere.

As a coin collector myself I demand nothing less than perfect if I am buying from a large dealer like PM/APMEX.

If you demand perfect then you have no business buying a coin that hasn't been graded MS/PF 70.

For me, and I think YRH, by perfect, I think to the eye. I mean, really, if it is a numi coin, and it has a nick, and a spot, are saying you'd keep. I doubt it. If so, then you have no business being in the collecting business (for modern coins).

 

[db23]

they don't deserve your business. Send the defective coins back to Provident and take your business elsewhere.

As a coin collector myself I demand nothing less than perfect if I am buying from a large dealer like PM/APMEX.

If you demand perfect then you have no business buying a coin that hasn't been graded MS/PF 70.

For me, and I think YRH, by perfect, I think to the eye. I mean, really, if it is a numi coin, and it has a nick, and a spot, are saying you'd keep. I doubt it. If so, then you have no business being in the collecting business (for modern coins).

I absolutely agree that there should be no visible scratches in any coin sold with a numismatic premium. It's just that word perfect that can have varying interpretation.

 

[yrh0413]

they don't deserve your business. Send the defective coins back to Provident and take your business elsewhere.

As a coin collector myself I demand nothing less than perfect if I am buying from a large dealer like PM/APMEX.

If you demand perfect then you have no business buying a coin that hasn't been graded MS/PF 70.

it doesn't need to be a PF70, I am contended with spotless/stainless specimen.
milk spots and oil stains are not acceptable in any way unless these flaws were stated clearly on the sales description.

this is also the primary reason I prefer to buy straight from the mint whenever possible, most of the time the mint has decent return policies.

 

[Altima]

Oh dear. I would def take up the return policy and buy them elsewhere.

Problem with these coins is that they have to be flawless. Otherwise you will have some trouble offloading them in the future.

 

[barsenault]

they don't deserve your business. Send the defective coins back to Provident and take your business elsewhere.

As a coin collector myself I demand nothing less than perfect if I am buying from a large dealer like PM/APMEX.

If you demand perfect then you have no business buying a coin that hasn't been graded MS/PF 70.

it doesn't need to be a PF70, I am contended with spotless/stainless specimen.
milk spots and oil stains are not acceptable in any way unless these flaws were stated clearly on the sales description.

this is also the primary reason I prefer to buy straight from the mint whenever possible, most of the time the mint has decent return policies.

I know db...I was just having fun. I know what you meant...and I think YRH does too. If we want a 'perfect coin' out of the gate, then don't buy the raw form, buy a 70. ) We all hope for a 70 if we buy raw and get it graded, but are happy to settle for a 69 or in some cases a 68...but these 2...not sure what their grade be...and regardless...I wouldn't be grading them...but if I sold them to you down the road, or tried to, I don't think you'd be too keen on buying them if I highlighted a 'nick' or 'spots.' I bet 100 out of a 100 folks on this forum wouldnt...unless of course it was selling close to spot per ounce.

 

[barsenault]

Oh dear. I would def take up the return policy and buy them elsewhere.

Problem with these coins is that they have to be flawless. Otherwise you will have some trouble offloading them in the future.

you are absolutely right, AND these imperfections would be competing with others of this same year and make...and which one would you buy, right? Which one would anyone buy? Of course the one with no visible imperfections. I'd even spend the extra money...a lot more extra money to buy the one with no imperfections of a coin of this type. I think anyone with half a brain regarding collectibles would agree. And yet these clowns tried to persuade me to keep it. Or said was too demanding. That was funny.

I will NEVER buy another coin from these guys again. I'm not into rounds, generics, maples, eagles, philharmonics...in that case,maybe I would if the price was low enough. But since I'm only a collector or buyer of PM lunars and kooks and koals; and on occassion pandas...I'll stick with APMEX. You can't beat their guarantee.

 

[Altima]

Were they cheaper than apmex for the kilos?

Apmex has them listed for 1495 USD without shipping.

 

[barsenault]

Were they cheaper than apmex for the kilos?

Apmex has them listed for 1495 USD without shipping.

Yes, significantly. 1,075.00 at the time. Hence, why I had planned to buy 20 of them in the next several weeks. I have 5, and I have one more on the way. And they would only let me exchange the 2 that had the nicks and spots. I told them, you better look closely, because if they have any imperfection to the eye, I will be sending those back too...so a total of 8. I'm done. No more. On eBay they're going for about 1400'ish. lucky, who usually has good prices, he quoted 1,400 too. But you and I both know even at that price, come 'sell time', if it is not perfect, one will just get a bit over spot (if one is honest and highlights the imperfection, which I would).

 

[Altima]

I would rather pay good money for good service and coins that are in good condition. Think provident is good for bullion coins like their prospectors. Other than, it is pretty much a gamble.

 

[barsenault]

I would rather pay good money for good service and coins that are in good condition. Think provident is good for bullion coins like their prospectors. Other than, it is pretty much a gamble.

Yes, agreed. I look forward to hearing more feedback from folks on what their thoughts are.

 

[yrh0413]

my Zombucks (product of Provident Metals) are not perfect; they spot easily and they tend to have scratches here and there.

I treat them as bullion so these flaws are acceptable to me; but if I were to get a kilo proof silver panda it better be a perfect copy.

 

[mmissinglink]

Bob, you should go where you feel the love the most....whether that's APMEX this month or if next year it's a different dealer....there are enough dealers around that you shouldn't just settle.

As for acceptable quality....so I have given this thought over the past 8 or so months (as you know Bob). What I believe is that in recent years (10- 15), many people have become increasingly discerning, especially if they are flipping coins (which I have no problem with though I haven't done that myself). Why do I say this and why is the trend to be particularly discerning growing? I know some old timers who used to buy and collect coins when they were young to middle aged - they'd mostly buy collector coins directly from the US Mint. These old timers have told me, when I ask, that they never even thought to look closely at the collector coins they received from the US Mint. I can only assume that this was a relatively normal practice for most collectors during that time.

Enter the advent of professional third party grading in the late 1980's. Though PCGS graded their first coin in 1986, it appears to have taken about 2 or so decades for TPG companies like PCGS to really get wide-spread support and to be seen as a valuable asset to collectors...especially with so many fakes of all sorts of numi, semi-numi, and even bullion coins appearing on the market in the last decade or so. Yes, of course there are collectors who still see TPGing as a sort of scam...but I think most collectors don't hold that view any more.

Anyone who buys collector coins these days knows that in general you will pay a hefty premium for coins that are graded 69 or especially 70 by a reputable TPG company. Selling coins is similar; you will likely get a hefty premium for these top graded coins over ungraded coins. There's nothing wrong with that. After all, many collectors like the fact that they have coins that have been certified by professionals to be authentic and of the highest quality?

So, is it that unusual that today, perhaps more than ever before, we see people who buy collector coins looking for near perfection - even coins bought directly from the issuing mint? Old timers would laugh or shrug their shoulders at people who get raw collector coins and immediately break out the loupe....these old timers today would be laughing and shrugging their shoulders at me too as I have been guilty the past 8 months or so taking my loupe to coins that I get directly from the mint or from large dealers.

It just seems like the idea of near perfection has taken a strong foothold with collectors and the market will therefore have to accommodate to these changes or suffer a loss of revenue. Mints will have to step up QC....is that a bad thing?





.

 

[goldpelican]

Looks like you may have inadvertently received an email meant to be sent internally to another staff member discussing your return. Oops.

Reminds me of the time when I was working in a pizza shop at uni - there was a notes section for each phone order customer where you could put notes about the customer like "use side gate", "beware of dog", "likes extra cheese" etc. Unbeknownst to one staff member, these notes were printed on the receipts - I was the poor bunny who took a call from an irate customer wanting to know why his receipt said he was a "f**** pain in the arse".

 

[barsenault]

Looks like you may have inadvertently received an email meant to be sent internally to another staff member discussing your return. Oops.

Reminds me of the time when I was working in a pizza shop at uni - there was a notes section for each phone order customer where you could put notes about the customer like "use side gate", "beware of dog", "likes extra cheese" etc. Unbeknownst to one staff member, these notes were printed on the receipts - I was the poor bunny who took a call from an irate customer wanting to know why his receipt said he was a "f**** pain in the arse".

Yepper, exactly what happened. I just got off the phone with them, saying, sorry, you lost all my business. As a matter of fact, I don't want an exchange, I want my money back. I'll stick with my APMEX Kilo Horses, thank you very much. I could tell it was a big oops. They definitely lost my business. Especially considering they made me feel like I didn't know what I was talking about regarding collectibles.

Your story was much more funny.

 

[barsenault]

Bob, you should go where you feel the love the most....whether that's APMEX this month or if next year it's a different dealer....there are enough dealers around that you shouldn't just settle.

As for acceptable quality....so I have given this thought over the past 8 or so months (as you know Bob). What I believe is that in recent years (10- 15), many people have become increasingly discerning, especially if they are flipping coins (which I have no problem with though I haven't done that myself). Why do I say this and why is the trend to be particularly discerning growing? I know some old timers who used to buy and collect coins when they were young to middle aged - they'd mostly buy collector coins directly from the US Mint. These old timers have told me, when I ask, that they never even thought to look closely at the collector coins they received from the US Mint. I can only assume that this was a relatively normal practice for most collectors during that time.

Enter the advent of professional third party grading in the late 1980's. Though PCGS graded their first coin in 1986, it appears to have taken about 2 or so decades for TPG companies like PCGS to really get wide-spread support and to be seen as a valuable asset to collectors...especially with so many fakes of all sorts of numi, semi-numi, and even bullion coins appearing on the market in the last decade or so. Yes, of course there are collectors who still see TPGing as a sort of scam...but I think most collectors don't hold that view any more.

Anyone who buys collector coins these days knows that in general you will pay a hefty premium for coins that are graded 69 or especially 70 by a reputable TPG company. Selling coins is similar; you will likely get a hefty premium for these top graded coins over ungraded coins. There's nothing wrong with that. After all, many collectors like the fact that they have coins that have been certified by professionals to be authentic and of the highest quality?

So, is it that unusual that today, perhaps more than ever before, we see people who buy collector coins looking for near perfection - even coins bought directly from the issuing mint? Old timers would laugh or shrug their shoulders at people who get raw collector coins and immediately break out the loupe....these old timers today would be laughing and shrugging their shoulders at me too as I have been guilty the past 8 months or so taking my loupe to coins that I get directly from the mint or from large dealers.

It just seems like the idea of near perfection has taken a strong foothold with collectors and the market will therefore have to accommodate to these changes or suffer a loss of revenue. Mints will have to step up QC....is that a bad thing?


Hey missing. I agree. the QC has to be taken to another notch. Especially when it comes to collectibles. I'm not looking to flip. I really enjoy looking at these beauties. I was going to add to the stack. But no more. And I most def can't justify paying 1495.00 at APMEX, when I can get almost 3 PM kios. Appreciate your wise counsel...I'm def not looking to grade any of my coins at the moment, or perhaps ever. I only have a few graded coins.


.

 

[barsenault]

An update from Provident. Be forewarned. Even if it has nicks and spots on a collectible proof, like a Panda, they consider it a 'round.' What a joke these clowns are. I'm not looking for a coin to grade 70 by the 'agencies,' just want them not to have visible defects to the naked eye. I didn't look under a microscope or loupe or any such thing...just observed. As the saying goes, you get what you pay for. I'll never, ever, ever, spend another penny with these clowns. I suggest you don't either. :/ Well, unless of course you don't care about getting quality collectibles or semi numi coins.

Chris Spitzenberger (Provident Metals)
Oct 14 04:38 PM

Dear Bob,

When it comes to the quality of the coins, we do our best to fulfill all orders with the best available. We went above and beyond on your order by hand picking and packing your rounds specifically to the requirements you emailed about, knowing that you wanted the best. All though these rounds may be high premium coins, it doesn't mean they will be perfect coins. If perfect coins are what you are looking for, a slabbed MS69 or MS70 would be your best choice. Saying that... Because these are mint direct, and because we sent the best rounds available, we will no longer be accommodating returns for these specific high standards.

However, we will swap these rounds for you this time. We are not trying to attack you in any way, and we understand that good quality coins are important. We want that too. I have attached a return label for you to use like we talked about earlier. If you have any questions at all please don't hesitate to call us. We appreciate your business even with the occasional concerns.

Kind regards,

Chris Spitzenberger
Senior Account Executive
Provident Metals
Phone: (800) 313 - 3315 Opt 3
Fax: 469-212-8977
Web: www.providentmetals.com

 

[Jislizard]

... many people have become increasingly discerning...Why do I say this and why is the trend to be particularly discerning growing? I know some old timers who used to buy and collect coins when they were young to middle aged - they'd mostly buy collector coins directly from the US Mint. These old timers have told me, when I ask, that they never even thought to look closely at the collector coins they received from the US Mint. I can only assume that this was a relatively normal practice for most collectors during that time.

Most old school coin collectors collected coins, not non circulating legal tender limited edition collectors' items. They would try and get a complete set of a particular type of coin and they would do this by collecting what they could from circulation and anything else they would buy from a coin shop. They were mostly circulated items and pretty old. For ongoing series you were able to buy the mint sets and these were usually in better condition than the older coins in the series anyway, even without worrying about the difference between a 69 and a 70 you could tell they were far better than the hundred year old circulated coins in the set so quibbling over 1 grade point in the context of the entire set was not worth it.

If you managed to find an early coin in good condition it would be expensive because there were so few surviving.

Once you get a complete set, you start upgrading coins and that is when you start paying more attention to the condition.

These days though, there is no need to pay thousands of dollars for an old coin, you can pay hundreds of dollars for a brand new one that has never suffered from circulation so by all rights should be free from the wear of circulation. Any damage caused to the coin is not through usage, it is through poor manufacturing, handling and quality control practices. If you are paying top dollar for a small amount of silver then you are paying to have that small amount of silver manufactured to a really high standard.

You can't charge people for high standards and then not deliver them the high standards.