Working and Wages

Results not typical said:
1% who have all of the money and power, beneath them is a massive military, and a massive security and surveillance army. Below that is a large police force and finally below that is everyone else who are all equal in as much as they are equally poor. The police are particularly brutal because that know that if they are not then they will be kicked out and become one of the masses under the boot heel of said police.
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So America == Communist?
 
thermionix said:
Results not typical said:
1% who have all of the money and power, beneath them is a massive military, and a massive security and surveillance army. Below that is a large police force and finally below that is everyone else who are all equal in as much as they are equally poor. The police are particularly brutal because that know that if they are not then they will be kicked out and become one of the masses under the boot heel of said police.
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So America == Communist?
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America has a massive middle class, so no.
 
'Merica

Why increase wages when machines are doing more work than ever before? They require no pay or benefits. Layoff 3 workers and buy one backhoe and do 5 times the work. This is the math the working class is up against. An aging baby boomer generation is not leaving the work force for retirement because there are no pensions anymore. Social Security is broke. The elderly work for fear of losing everything. Now all of the new workers are emerging from college with degrees in everything imaginable but there are no jobs available (remember the elderly and machinery). So now these young adults are burdened with thousands of dollars in debt right out the gate. They can't find a job and can't get a place of their own. This also exacerbates the problem with elderly retiring. Everyone that still has a job is grinding themselves away to keep up with the loss of co-workers due to efficiency of machines taking more jobs but not quite all the work. They also know there are plenty of others that are itching to get their jobs. So now the college grad has to work two part-time jobs at minimum wage to pay back the student loans. These "kids" aren't getting by, they aren't even treading water without the help of others.

The main problem is capitalism always finds the cheapest, most efficient way of doing things. If you don't like welfare, blame capitalism. I like to see folks earn a living, but you must inject some inefficiency into the system for this to happen. Pure capitalism isn't going to give you a welfare free state. So you make labor laws, minimum wage standards ect. How do you double employment? Create a 40 hour work week where currently 80 hour work weeks exists. This is what happened in the mid 20th century, what will we get in the 21st? Option two is a welfare program. The only other option is massive population death.
 
theFNG said:
The main problem is capitalism always finds the cheapest, most efficient way of doing things. If you don't like welfare, blame capitalism. I like to see folks earn a living, but you must inject some inefficiency into the system for this to happen. Pure capitalism isn't going to give you a welfare free state. So you make labor laws, minimum wage standards ect. How do you double employment? Create a 40 hour work week where currently 80 hour work weeks exists. This is what happened in the mid 20th century, what will we get in the 21st? Option two is a welfare program. The only other option is massive population death.
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Oops I clicked thanks instead of quote.

Oh well, thank you for posting theFNG. It is good to discuss things and share thoughts.

I disagree with your second paragraph.

The amount of work, productivity, things that can be achieved is limitless.

There is an entire universe out there.

It is not a fixed cake that has to be divided up.

For example, ten years ago I was an employee. I could have remained that way, but I decided to start my own business. I now employ 15 people. I have two other businesses that are operating at a low level, only 1 employee between them, because I don't have the time to ramp them up.
 
Agnostic said:
theFNG said:
The main problem is capitalism always finds the cheapest, most efficient way of doing things. If you don't like welfare, blame capitalism. I like to see folks earn a living, but you must inject some inefficiency into the system for this to happen. Pure capitalism isn't going to give you a welfare free state. So you make labor laws, minimum wage standards ect. How do you double employment? Create a 40 hour work week where currently 80 hour work weeks exists. This is what happened in the mid 20th century, what will we get in the 21st? Option two is a welfare program. The only other option is massive population death.
Click to expand...

Oops I clicked thanks instead of quote.

Oh well, thank you for posting theFNG. It is good to discuss things and share thoughts.

I disagree with your second paragraph.

The amount of work, productivity, things that can be achieved is limitless.

There is an entire universe out there.

It is not a fixed cake that has to be divided up.

For example, ten years ago I was an employee. I could have remained that way, but I decided to start my own business. I now employ 15 people. I have two other businesses that are operating at a low level, only 1 employee between them, because I don't have the time to ramp them up.
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You got it :)
For every job lost to mechanism there are 2 more jobs popping up in previously non existent industries.
So in the example of FNG 3 people get laid off and a back hoe is used to replace them.
Well that soil that back hoe is working on is losing fertility and/or not as productive as it could be.
So those 3 people that got laid off can go retrain and become genetic engineers or hydroponics system inventors.
I am sure this is a poor example but my boy is jumping on me and hard to elaborate.
I am sure someone here will understand my very crude point.
 
sterling-nz said:
Agnostic said:
theFNG said:
The main problem is capitalism always finds the cheapest, most efficient way of doing things. If you don't like welfare, blame capitalism. I like to see folks earn a living, but you must inject some inefficiency into the system for this to happen. Pure capitalism isn't going to give you a welfare free state. So you make labor laws, minimum wage standards ect. How do you double employment? Create a 40 hour work week where currently 80 hour work weeks exists. This is what happened in the mid 20th century, what will we get in the 21st? Option two is a welfare program. The only other option is massive population death.
Click to expand...

Oops I clicked thanks instead of quote.

Oh well, thank you for posting theFNG. It is good to discuss things and share thoughts.

I disagree with your second paragraph.

The amount of work, productivity, things that can be achieved is limitless.

There is an entire universe out there.

It is not a fixed cake that has to be divided up.

For example, ten years ago I was an employee. I could have remained that way, but I decided to start my own business. I now employ 15 people. I have two other businesses that are operating at a low level, only 1 employee between them, because I don't have the time to ramp them up.
Click to expand...
You got it :)
For every job lost to mechanism there are 2 more jobs popping up in previously non existent industries.
So in the example of FNG 3 people get laid off and a back hoe is used to replace them.
Well that soil that back hoe is working on is losing fertility and/or not as productive as it could be.
So those 3 people that got laid off can go retrain and become genetic engineers or hydroponics system inventors.
I am sure this is a poor example but my boy is jumping on me and hard to elaborate.
I am sure someone here will understand my very crude point.
Click to expand...

Freeing people from drudge work (Factory and labour jobs) should free them to achieve ever greater accomplishments.

If there are no mindless tasks available you can't just fail out of school and take on a shelf stacking job for the rest of your life. Education becomes more important because there won't be any jobs where you can get by on learning a narrow set of skills or providing muscle (except maybe professional sports)

More people concentrating on higher tasks means that our product evolution will speed up.

People with more time on their hands and more opportunity to put their ideas into practice (Crowdfunding, information, beta testers, forums, home manufacturing; 3D printing, CNC Milling etc., Internet sales, digital content distribution) will produce more things to solve problems they have. More digital content will be provided, increasing the sum intelligence of the species.

I am sure we will find some way to screw that up though.
 
Porcello said:
Not everybody is fit for conceptual jobs.
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Understood.

It is the role of schools to prepare people for a future career and ensure that they are able to socialise with others.

There is no reason that additional aid can't be given to help children who are not so academically minded, particularly when the knock on effect could be a lifetime without a job, on welfare.

There will always be a lag behind technology, sail ships were still operating decades after steam ships had been invented. There is an opportunity now to start planning for the change that will take several generations to come into effect, what there isn't time for is people to bury their heads in the sand on the assumption that there will always be a job out there for them.

Answering the phone can be done cheaper in India, check outs are becoming automated, shops are going online, physical goods are being replaced by digital goods, machinery is doing the repetitive tasks, even my old stamping ground, biomedical laboratories, are becoming more automated and can now be run by one person who can push a button on a machine.

While it is cheap to pay a human to do a task then there is no impetus to change, but if staff are demanding pay rises, taking their sick leave because it is 'owed' to them, stealing from the register and calling in sick because they went out drinking the night before then there is plenty of reason to look elsewhere.

Not only will there be fewer jobs but there will be more people competing for the ones that are left, you will have to be pretty good to keep your McJob, and willing to work for less, do casual hours etc.
 
Porcello said:
mmm....shiney! said:
Porcello said:
Not everybody is fit for conceptual jobs.
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What's a conceptual job?
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Like.... an intellectual job? One where you use your grey matter instead of your red fibers.
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It's all mostly meat.

Increasingly sophisticated automation and software technologies are making inroads into more and more job markets, even those that are considered (at least minimally) intellectual.
 
Well considering the indignities of old age, I'd prefer to have well paid, happy nurses changing my nappies and drips!
 
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