What actually happens when a bank fails?

Lovey80

Well-Known Member
I am actually really interested to know this. In Aus there is a theoretical 250k federal insurance on deposits. That I think has been somehow watered down by the government to be capped at a certain amount and in reality it means that not all deposits will be insured up to the 250k amount... I couldn't find this in a search but it was posted here years ago.

But on to a bank failure. So assuming all deposits are insured up to 250k inside a bank that fails. They also have multiples in "value" in collateral in the form of mortgages. Obviously the event that causes the bank to fail is also going to see the value of that collateral plummet, but the very essence of fractional reserve banking means that bank will own far more in mortgages than they do in deposits and other liabilities.

I am interested to hear how the liquidation of the bank would play out for the average punter.

Let's say an individual had more in deposits at a bank than their mortgage. Say 500k in savings deposits and 250k in a house loan. Assuming that only 250k of that deposit is insured, their deposit would reduced to 250k. What then happens to their debt to the bank? Please don't tell me another bank will buy that mortgage and the punter would still owe 250k to a new bank and be out of pocket 250k in savings?

This stuff is hard to get my head around.
 
You might have to wait till shiney wakes up in the morning to give you a rational explanation as to why any sane person would have 250k or more in a bank account
and then worry about what would happen to that money if the bank went under.:rolleyes:
 
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You might have to wait till shiney wakes up in the morning to give you a rational explanation as to why any sane person would have 250k or more in a bank account
and then worry about what would happen to that money if the bank went under.:rolleyes:

Personally, I have fuck all in my bank accounts and sleep a lot better because of it.:)

Good night all.
Well I can see why someone would have a substantial amount, up to at least their mortgage debt in a 100% offset account. It means they have that cash available at a moment's notice and what ever they spend it on, they're essentially paying mortgage interest rates. I've been saving for a number of years to buy a business. All of that cash is sitting in my offset account.
 
I presume in a bank collapse the offset funds would immediately be offset against the mortgage.
Check your contract, ask the bank.
 
If you had a shed load of cash on hand, would now be the right time to be opening bank accounts with multiple institutions and spreading 250k around as many as it took to cover your total cash?
 

thanks so much. Don’t know why I couldn’t find this earlier. If what odd job is saying is correct, then there basically is no guarantee in Australia.

OddJob said:
It's all smoke and mirrors...........Govt says publicly.

1) AUD250k per account holder per ADI (Authorised Deposit Institution) ie bank, building society & credit union as regulated by APRA.

2) Yes one would get caught out with the dual branding / same ownership as sammy has noted re WBC & STG. APRA in their listing of ADI's notes Westpac, then it's three other subsidiaries (bullet pointed under it) being STG, Bank of Melb & Bank SA). APRA are pretty clear about that....all accounts (from that bank and it's subs) are bundled into one total amount per account holder up to your AUD250k.

3) There is a provision for depositor funds claims over AUD250k, per account holder per ADI. Such would then be third ranking creditor behind your initial AUD250k and second ranking creditor being APRA costs for administrating the Financial Claims System (FCS).Note: APRA in effects acts as the depositors proxy in claims recovery under liquidation.


What they don tell you is:

One thing not advised on the APRA or Comm Govt web pages is the total extent of the Commonwealth Govt's liability under the legislation. When first bought in in 2008, the Governments liability was "unlimited". The Commonwealth Govt changed this in 2010/11 so to limit their liability to the bank's and you and I as depositors to only AUD20bn per ADI failure...


So AUD20bn divided by AUD250k max claim = 80,000 claims. Now I suspect any of the major big four Aust banks, they'd have more than 80,000 depositors (more like millions of depositor clients) so when looking at a bank like Commonwealth Bank who as at 30 June 2020 had circa AUD685bn of customer deposits (on demand. term and other), AUD20bn v CommBank's depositor liability don't go far. If CommBank only had 5m depositor clients (which I think is light on and closer to 10-15m clients), if the FCS up to AUD20bn was paid evenly to all 5m depositors (not as a % ratio to bank balance), then you'd get AUD4,000.00 back initially, not whatever you had in the bank up to AUD250k and you'd be waiting a hellva long time as a third ranking creditor to get the balance back as the bank's assets are sold off / debts recovered over time etc.

Pyramid Building Society collapsed in 1990 and last distribution was 2006.

HIH Insurance failed in 2001....final distribution to creditors March 2021.

Don't expect to get all your money back any time soon if this happened to CBA or any large Aust Bank.

The key thing here for me is not the value of the Govt Guarantee and ability to pay back (some monies) to depositors but which bank , credit union or building society the Commonwealth Govt would let fail. The govt guarantee isn't for the big bank's...it's for the small ones and public perception of "a guarantee".

If a small regional bank / other FI with only a few branches, low client numbers, small deposit base and no real impact on the wider Australian banking system was about to fail, I suspect the RBA/APRA/Commonwealth Govt would try and find a buyer for that bank first, but if a buyer couldn't be found, then I suspect unless that bank was in a marginal government electorate, they'd let it fail, activate the FCS and pay out a moderate amount of tax payer dollars to depositors then become a creditor in liquidation.

It'd be a very different matter with one of the Big 4 Australian Banks. As noted above, CommBank has AUD685bn (as at 30 June 2020) of depositor funds on their book. No Commonwealth Govt wants to pick up that liability nor incur the wrath of the those clients and voters who lost most of their savings with that bank. Further and more important is the systemic risk to the Australian banking sector and economy should a major Australian bank fail. They are all interconnected via intraday loans, exchange settlement accounts and counterparty risk for financial markets instruments...If one of them didn't open tomorrow, the other banks would not be able to lend and borrow between each other, transfer monies between each other as trust would disappear in a heart beat with billions locked up in the bank that failed that the other banks need. ATM's and merchant facilities we use for purchases would shut. It's a tad more detailed than that but I'm trying to keep it simple and short.

Such an impact would have devastating consequences for not only Australia, but NZ where our big 4 bank own NZ's biggest four banks. The Commonwealth Govt, APRA and RBA would hopefully see this coming and would not let one of the major bank's fail. The Commonwealth Govt would drop the "4 Pillars" policy and get the failing bank a dance partner to ensure no banking failure. The US financial system came to a near grinding halt on the Lehman's failure and their economy and financial system dwafts our. A bank like CommBank has an asset base nearly twice the size of Lehman...so image the impact on Australia would be too big to imagine...The Govt of the day could not let it happen. Our Big 4 or too big to fail.

The Commonwealth Govt guarantee (FCS) was to calm the public in late 2008...the very early ripples of a possible run on the Australian banks was being seen in early Oct 2008. That's a post for another time as this one is long enough.
 
There is a $250K guarantee for each depositor in each ADI. After that it's anyone's game which is exactly what it should be as the deposit guarantee is $250K too generous in the first place anyway.

Well that’s correct in theory but each ADI has a cap of $20bn AUD.

https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=39adc416-0a7a-4629-99df-127f68f36216&subId=686227

According to Canstar, as of February 2022 the big 4 had the following in deposits in their institutions.

CBA: $342.99bn
WBC: $255.76bn
NAB: $165.38bn
ANZ: $154.76bn

https://www.canstar.com.au/home-loans/compare-the-big-four-banks-in-australia/

@ $20bn cap on each, essentially only 5.83% of CBA customer deposits are insured, with up to $12.9% for ANZ. Now if it is the case that say 6% of CBA’s depositors are made up of thousands of tiny every day transaction accounts and people with small term deposits, and roughly 94% of their deposits come from a tiny portion of whales, then the $250k deposit insurance will cover a huge chunk of their individual depositors, leaving only a few whales at risk.

I find that scenario so highly unlikely because it would only take a few of their whales to change banks and it would be the equivalent of a bank run. That suggests to me that a shit-load of all Australian depositors are exposed badly to a bank failure.

On the flip side to that is that all of the big 4 are far too big to fail. One going down would see the whole baking sector collapse. So we can be pretty sure the RBA will start/speed up the printing presses to ensure that doesn’t happen. I’d say that would be the case for all of the next tier of banks that aren’t owned by the big 4 also.
 
On a related note. CBA had around $510.73bn in home loans (including investors) according to that Canstar report. That was against $342.99bn in deposits as of Feb 2022 Where can we find what the value of that collateral against those loans is? What would a 20-30% or even a 30-40% decline in home values do to that book? Could we see a scenario where a major bank has more on loan than the houses are worth.
 
The other consideration is time. As was mentioned earlier, final payouts after Pyramid Building Society went bust took 16 years. Even if the 250lk make good payments take a couple of weeks to process the damage to confidence could be terminal.
 
We'd have to check the legislation, but if the banking shit hits the fan then caps would become meaningless and the banks will have their arses covered. But I don't think it will get to that. See: https://www.silverstackers.com/foru...d-us-bank-failure.105831/page-11#post-1261387

How many SVBs are there in the mainstream banking system in Australia? Probably none.

i am not sure what you mean by that? Why would caps be meaningless? If there was a true 250k insurance for everyone in a bank then a shed load of people would be insured. As it stands essentially no one is insured between (5-12% of total deposits depending on which bank) how would the banks have their arses covered?
 
What I do know about bank failures from relatives back in Cyprus is that many lost half their savings and superannuation.
 
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