VAT for silver from 7 to 19% in Germany (and rest of Europe?)

[Photonaware]

No tax mentioned.
No tax in the total.
The coin costs 2 euro less than your CoinInvestDirect, and I wonder why you use it as example, it isn't a German dealer?

I used CoinInvestDirect as illustration of the new VAT applicable on silver coins because they show prices if sold in many countries.
Their warehouse is near Frankfurt and VAT in Germany was 7% on their coins until the January increase to 19%.
As a major supplier of bullion they updated their website very quickly.
During the VAT change they removed all silver coins from their website.
Smaller operators are probably still sorting themselves out.

 

[Pirocco]

No tax mentioned.
No tax in the total.
The coin costs 2 euro less than your CoinInvestDirect, and I wonder why you use it as example, it isn't a German dealer?

I used CoinInvestDirect as illustration of the new VAT applicable on silver coins because they show prices if sold in many countries.
Their warehouse is near Frankfurt and VAT in Germany was 7% on their coins until the January increase to 19%.
As a major supplier of bullion they updated their website very quickly.
During the VAT change they removed all silver coins from their website.
Smaller operators are probably still sorting themselves out.

This goldsupermarket.de dealer also removed all silver coins, for over a month. Out of stock. And the 3 other dealers I used in the past, or intended, same story.
Since they now again sell silver coins, now without VAT instead of 7%, and a price same as before, this appears as a 'done sorting out' to me.
Also same price at Netherland and Belgium dealers.
I think alot will skip your CoinInvestDirect when looking to order. Don't you think?

 

[Photonaware]

No tax mentioned.
No tax in the total.
The coin costs 2 euro less than your CoinInvestDirect, and I wonder why you use it as example, it isn't a German dealer?

I used CoinInvestDirect as illustration of the new VAT applicable on silver coins because they show prices if sold in many countries.
Their warehouse is near Frankfurt and VAT in Germany was 7% on their coins until the January increase to 19%.
As a major supplier of bullion they updated their website very quickly.
During the VAT change they removed all silver coins from their website.
Smaller operators are probably still sorting themselves out.

This goldsupermarket.de dealer also removed all silver coins, for over a month. Out of stock. And the 3 other dealers I used in the past, or intended, same story.
Since they now again sell silver coins, now without VAT instead of 7%, and a price same as before, this appears as a 'done sorting out' to me.
Also same price at Netherland and Belgium dealers.
I think alot will skip your CoinInvestDirect when looking to order. Don't you think?

If a company is registered for VAT then by law it must provide an invoice showing the VAT amount.
If your online suppliers show product with nil VAT then that suggests VAT will be added at the point of sale.
Has anyone received silver coins from any of your referenced suppliers with an invoice dated 2014?
Just for your information, I am not endorsing CID merely referencing them as a supplier with clear pricing and no ambiguity w.r.t. the change in VAT in Germany.

 

[Pirocco]

If a company is registered for VAT then by law it must provide an invoice showing the VAT amount.

Not in the case of margin goods. German dealers moved from VAT to margin good, just like Netherland dealers already were as long as I know (3 years). Law forbids them to put VAT on the margin good on the invoice. VAT can still appear on the shipping cost or other things of course.
If your online suppliers show product with nil VAT then that suggests VAT will be added at the point of sale.

Has anyone received silver coins from any of your referenced suppliers with an invoice dated 2014?
Just for your information, I am not endorsing CID merely referencing them as a supplier with clear pricing and no ambiguity w.r.t. the change in VAT in Germany.

As I said, I don't know myself since I didn't order yet.
But earlier today, before my previous post, I went through the ordering sequence at that German dealer, upto the point of Confirm order, and the total just remained. And in my previous order in 2013 from this German dealer, the 7% tax appeared during the whole ordering sequence process. And back then I made an account there, and I logged in now, so they know from which country I order. And earlier last year I got stuck on their limits for my country, I couldnt order Lunar kilocoins even if I had wanted. So, they do take into account country or ordering, and let you immediately know if anything is of importance to you.
So, no, VAT wont be added at the point of sale.
In the past I ordered several times from a Belgium dealer, and the invoice (so legal binding) clearly stated no tax based on <law article reference>. Same for Netherland dealers. Because it's considered a margin good, because alot silver coins have some properties that allow to classify them as such, and apparently, lawmakers don't see a problem, since years.
Also, dealers can chose themselves if they sell with VAT or as margin good. It's not like they are forced, they just chose it based on their dealer situation, where they buy most silver from (former customers / bigger dealers / Mints / etc), what inflicts them least tax. This is also a choice for the customer side, one can desire to pay VAT, for ex some businesses buying silver as business, because they can then subtract the VAT from their tax / get it refunded. Of course, this applies more to common bars than to coins.

 

[Photonaware]

Hi Pirocco - this VAT thing is sooooo.. complex now that I have to give up. I just tried to place an order on the supplier you mentioned - gold-super-markt and apparently they don't ship silver to the UK or similar countries. I wonder why ?

 

[Pirocco]

Hi Pirocco - this VAT thing is sooooo.. complex now that I have to give up. I just tried to place an order on the supplier you mentioned - gold-super-markt and apparently they don't ship silver to the UK or similar countries. I wonder why ?

It appears complex but once you understand what margin good means for dealers and customers, it's pretty straightforward. Check some Netherland dealers, if you can read Dutch:
https://zilvergoudwinkel.nl/klantenservice/veelgestelde-vragen/

Hoe zit het met de BTW?
Alle prijzen op de website zijn inclusief BTW. Baren zilver zijn belast met 21 % procent BTW. De BTW bij invoer op zilveren munten is per 1 januari 2011 onder het alemene BTW-tarief van (per 1-10-2012) 21% gebracht. Op zilveren munten passen wij de margeregeling toe. Dit betekent dat er 21 % BTW wordt berekend over de brutowinstmarge. Wanneer je als onderneming deze regeling toepast schrijft de belastingdienst voor dat er geen BTW vermeld mag worden de factuur. Voor meer informatie hierover verwijzen wij u naar de belastingdienst.
Goud is vrijgesteld van BTW.

http://www.rijksbegroting.nl/2011/kamerstukken,2010/11/2/kst149587.html
http://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/w...lijk/btw/bijzondere_regelingen/margeregeling/
The crucial difference is that in the VAT on invoice silver case, the VAT is based on the total of the silver, while in the margin good method, the tax is based on the profit of the dealer, that the dealer then 'incorporates' in his silver prices, so no standalone invoice item, but directly as part of the coin price. Since taxing the total of the silver usually gives a bigger tax amount than taxing the dealers profit 'margin' (hence the name), it means cheaper silver coins.

About gold-super-markt.de not shipping to UK (what you mean with 'similar countries?, I don't know. I'm not UK. The only refusal to ship I came across was based on the eurosales limit that German dealers are subjected to, being certain amount euro's per country per year. For ex, if that limit would be 100,000 euro, and on 1 january I order 100,000 euro silver, then after me, the dealer can't sell any more to customers in my country. Well, he can, but then mister taxman makes a greater % visit haha, because the dealer gets then classified in another category.
What I do know, relevant for me / my country, is that silver at German dealers is still the same price as before, and there is nothing that indicates a 7% > 19% tax change. It's just the taxation method that changed, apparently they moved from VAT to margin good. A theory to explain that is that they buy nowadays more silver back from customers than in the past (in the end, a dropping silver price means more selling no?), and 2 the lower price gives them less profit per ounce, and the margin tax method is then a lower burden.

 

[JB3]

If the tax has effectively fallen then, from 7% to a margin tax, while the prices remain the same... are they just making bigger profits now?

 

[Pirocco]

If the tax has effectively fallen then, from 7% to a margin tax, while the prices remain the same... are they just making bigger profits now?

That's hard to say, the question contradicts itself, since a bigger profit with tax on the profit part instead of the silver total, also means more tax to be paid.
Let's look at it from customers side. Those that buy the silver coins, like many of us stackers, we pay the same price as before, so IF dealers get more profit, then it implies that State gets less tax. A part of our money goes to State or dealer instead of silver, and I rather prefer seeing the same 'loss in silver' going to the dealer than to State. Screw State.

 

[2003dve]

If the tax has effectively fallen then, from 7% to a margin tax, while the prices remain the same... are they just making bigger profits now?

Can only go on Coin Invest Direct with prices in before VAT.

1oz Silver Philharmonic premiums over spot....

9/11/13 - 9.69%
16/11/13 - 11.32%
23/11/13 -11.85%
30/11/13 - 11.87%
7/12/13 - 13.42%
14/12/13 - 15.16%

4/01/14 - 16.97%

One more thing, as I said in a previous post CID haven't had any silver 100g, 250g or 500g bars for a while and still haven't restocked and only just got the 1kg listed again,

Interestingly, has anyone noticed the price of the 15kg silver bullion bar:

1kg is 423 ie 13.15oz
15kg is 8864 ie 18.38oz

Since when has higher quantity been more expensive ie 2519 difference between a 1x 15kg bar or 15 x 1kg bars

Or is that a special 15kg bar with the extra premium?

Keep Stackin'