USA has "only" 8,133.5 tonnes of gold

It would not surprise me if China and Russia actually have more gold than the US and that the US used most of its gold to pay for their black budget, military and underground bases etc.

Far out thought but a possibility.

Fact is I haven't a clue what goes on at this level, just a hunch from your garden variety citizen.
 
Here is America's goldsmiths hard at work

gold_bars_3.jpg
 
boston said:
Pirocco said:
I would seriously question the accuracy and validity of that picture.

Russia and China, being the superpowers that they are, have a minimal amount? Just doesn't sit right with me.
It's possible to question everything.
A next question is then: according to which figures/pictures do people on markets act?
I think they act on official figures, that have a reputation to uphold, because losing it can trigger their end.
Those that act mostly on rumours, usually end up at the losing side of the market.
Do you know any more accurate / valid figures?
 
Ronnie 666 said:
Without an audit you may as well assume that all the bars held by the US is tungsten filled. That would explain China's accumulation of $10,000 T and Russia' s holdings of 20,000T. We will only know for certain when the whole system crashes. As for the other European countries like Germany haha. You need to wait until they mine more gold....The original German gold I have no doubt has been shipped to Hong Kong via some lease agreement and is now recast into official Chinese bullion. It has entered the black hole never to reappear.
An audit?
The only way to be sure of something is checking it yourself.
For the rest, one can only rely on what the sources that have a reputation to hold up, say.
That is just the next best option out there.
One thing to never forget to keep in mind is that the reason for all these rumor stories origins in vested interest sources.
People that have gold now / sell it on a regular basis, and all these rumors have one thing in common: the suggestion that the gold price will 'explode' in a system crash/whatever event.
And guess what: everytime, despite all these suggestions and the shiny rosy flower sun bees gold outlooks, people sell gold. All the rumors beaten by the reality of the ability to purchase delivered gold at dealers at a much lower price.
And why did those people sell their gold? Because at that moment, they decided that OTHER things than gold have a more shiny rosy flower sun bees outlook.
 
Pirocco said:
A next question is then: according to which figures/pictures do people on markets act?
I think they act on official figures, that have a reputation to uphold, because losing it can trigger their end.
Perhaps this may be one of the reasons, that the American authorities, do not wish to have Fort Knox audited? (Rhetorical question)

If, as is suspected, there is less gold than claimed in Fort Knox, then the American market could potentially collapse. This in itself, is sufficient reason for the bureaucracy of the USA to lie.
 
The 9,000 tonnes and close figures appeared in a large number of blogs and writings, I read that on CNBC before I posted this question, but I also found it on SeekingAlpha and a number of other sources that are often quoted as "credible" in the PM community.

So I'm convinced now that there are lots of myths and who knows what else is inaccurate and who know what else we believed in the past simply isn't true.

Official sources and the WGC are most credible.
 
TreasureHunter said:
The 9,000 tonnes and close figures appeared in a large number of blogs and writings, I read that on CNBC before I posted this question, but I also found it on SeekingAlpha and a number of other sources that are often quoted as "credible" in the PM community.

So I'm convinced now that there are lots of myths and who knows what else is inaccurate and who know what else we believed in the past simply isn't true.

Official sources and the WGC are most credible.
Not that large number, as the web search results showed: 3950 versus 196.
There might be a conclusion to draw here: that the places you visit, started to have their own version of reality. One may wonder about the level of criticism their readers show. Just accepting without verifying any of it. See, you started this topic by already wondering where those 800 'missing' tonnes went to. So it's like you said: "I think pretty much everyone is quoting everyone without much verification. ". I ceased to read Zerohedge etc stories altogether. It's just a waste of time. And I only know due to experience, having seen that they give bogus / incomplete stories.
The same bogus stories, repeated over and over again, with apparently nobody discovering that these are bogus, year after year. I'm active in this 'pm world' since 2011. That's just 2 years ago. There are plenty others out there that are much longer active in this 'pm world'. Yet, it's like they never checked anything of what they have read. The best example is the story that compares daily trading volume with mine production alike one can only buy/sell 1 time in a trading day. Repeated/copypasted all the time. You surely have read it.

The last one I discovered as bogus, was the one about the silver market being a tiny small one. I had read that so many times on Kitco and elsewhere, that it just seemed to be a universal consensus. But on a certain day, some months ago, I decided to actually check it. Well, it was true before 2002. Since, it became 160 times bigger.
As also said, I was surprised to see Seekingalpha publishing the wrong figure.
One may wonder where the higher number origined for its first time.

And to add to the complexity, as you suggested, data is subject to revision. Revision is also normal. For ex, the central banks monetary data is almost always updated a month later / final figures. But the update is in the order of fractions of percents, and only the latest figure rivised.
But apparently, some crucial research companies, in this case that UK company that provides the WGC and the SI production demand/supply worldwide data, revise numbers many years later.
How I know? Because I downloaded the data last year, I downloaded it now, and I see that figures as far back as 2002 are changed with sometimes 20%. And not a few, but dozens out of hundred. That is absurd and troublesome. I made a topic somewhere on this forum about it. And why: because I can't even guess a reasonable explanation for a whole part of the data (if not all) being revised a decade later. Imagine that I had been active in the PM world since 2000. In 2002 I save some data from the SilverInstitutes website, and I use it in posts on the forum. 10 years later, the data is adjusted 20%, and my figure had been wrong for a whole decade. While I just saved it from their site. That's just... ridiculous. Because why on Earth would someone think he needs to check every month if the figures of a decade ago weren't revised / are still the same? In the case of the SI data, I only found out by coincidence, I was checking the data for my post about the size of silver market increase, since the SI only shows the last 10 years data, for 2001 and 2002 I had to use an in 2011 harddisk-saved copy, and while processing the data, I noticed differences everywhere. I then searched the web for older copies of SI's supply/demand, found some, and these confirmed that my harddisk-saved copy indeed wasnt edited somehow.

Aside of this, I don't give any site any creditibility. Even not official ones. Aboves SI example is an example of an official site giving wrong data for almost a decade (or, also possible, giving wrong data since the revision). Instead, I try to collect as much data I can find. And I store it as new files/lines, never replacing older, just adding. From the whole of it, I try to get an idea of how things actually are. This topic does a good job as a warning shot.
 
The 1054 tons in China cannot possibly be true.

No idea on historical figures going back 5+ years but,

their annual production of about 350 tons has been banned from export for about 4 years now I think it is. In addition they are buying every ounce they can get their hands on, and that is running at over 500 tons a year at least. I expect that a lot is going to China via Russia as a cover.

And that is just what they are telling us about.

My bet is near 5000 tone and rising rapidly.


OC
 
Old Codger said:
The 1054 tons in China cannot possibly be true.

No idea on historical figures going back 5+ years but,

their annual production of about 350 tons has been banned from export for about 4 years now I think it is. In addition they are buying every ounce they can get their hands on, and that is running at over 500 tons a year at least. I expect that a lot is going to China via Russia as a cover.

And that is just what they are telling us about.

My bet is near 5000 tone and rising rapidly.


OC

They are the biggest producers. I suppose almost all they squeeze out of the ground is put into their bullion vaults!
We don't know how much they extract - not even those figures are correct.

Who knows how much China has.

But it would be so weird if they never let us know... What sense would it make to hold something and hide indefinitely?
I guess if they'd launch a gold standard for the yuan, then they would have to admit the quantities.
 
About every gold squeezed out of the ground ends in bullion vaults. Regardless whether or not it passes through an industrial part of its life story. With as reason is the high price. We have had centuries of accumulation of gold. An ever increasing global stock.

Also, it doesn't really matter which governments central bank (China IMF Fed ECB BOE etc) owns which part of the gold. There is not any currency redeemability to gold anymore. Even not one with redeemability limited to other governments/institutionals (as was the case with the Bretton Woods gold standard). The central banks swap some gold inbetween them, with now and then a dump on the market. In 1960 they accumulated enough gold to continue these sized market sales for at least another half century. And they can buy it back anytime, at any price, since they create the fiatcurrency to do so. If they would buy from the market now and drive the price to $2000 with it, how many of us would be willing to sell? Hell, alot are already selling even at $1300 and lower. As long as we don't use the dollars derived for the gold immediately to spend on other products, they don't really care.
 
TreasureHunter said:
Who knows how much China has.

But it would be so weird if they never let us know... What sense would it make to hold something and hide indefinitely?
I guess if they'd launch a gold standard for the yuan, then they would have to admit the quantities.
If China were to advise the true quantity of gold that they have accumulated, and just supposing that it was substantially more than the rest of the world knew, then the US$ would be under threat as the world's reserve currency.

This would cause a massive devaluation of the US$ with the result being that China's holdings of US$, treasuries, bonds etc would all take a hit. The Chinese are not stupid, and they are patient.

When they are ready, they will notify the world of their holdings.
 
Ok so we say that China's gold stock as reported here and there, can' be correct.
Any list of arguments supporting that?

First, China only became the biggest producer since 2007, with as major reason the former nr 1 South Africa, losing 50% of its production over the decade, caused by increased production costs that ment the end for many gold mining companies.

Second, that 1054 ton is not all the gold in the country China. It's the gold sitting in official reserves. Reserves from government and its institutionals like its central bank.
The country China holds of course more gold than government+institutionals reserves. Otherwise there wouldn't be any private ownership.
So, one can't compare production with the China State reserves, as to claim that the latter can't be correct.
 
boston said:
TreasureHunter said:
Who knows how much China has.

But it would be so weird if they never let us know... What sense would it make to hold something and hide indefinitely?
I guess if they'd launch a gold standard for the yuan, then they would have to admit the quantities.
If China were to advise the true quantity of gold that they have accumulated, and just supposing that it was substantially more than the rest of the world knew, then the US$ would be under threat as the world's reserve currency.

This would cause a massive devaluation of the US$ with the result being that China's holdings of US$, treasuries, bonds etc would all take a hit. The Chinese are not stupid, and they are patient.

When they are ready, they will notify the world of their holdings.

China does indeed sell Gold Pandas for export, so they do export come gold. I wonder how much of the internal production is transformed into bullion and put away by the state.

If China's the biggest producer with 370-380 tonnes yearly production. And if they's put away at least 300 tonnes a year, that would accumulate to 3,000 tonnes in 10 years, roughly.

Does anyone know when China started accumulating gold bullion seriously?
 
Holdfast:

*yes, they have "only", because they're throwing it above the fence to China!
*yes, the US is winning, because those bullion bars are hard and it mega hurts when that thrown "gold brick" hits!

Reminds me of the game "paper-rock-scissors"! :D

Rock is hard, but paper covers paper, but scissors cut paper, but rock breaks scissors...

Could we have a version involving paper money and gold? :P
 
systematic said:
TheEnd said:
I read an article on this site last week that says China secretly has 10,000 tons and Russia has 20,000 tons.


so much for secrets ....

I look forward to the day wikileaks brings the truth of this to the worlds attention.

(/Sarcasm)
 
Does that include the gold they are storing for other countries?

Germany wants it's 2500 tons back but it will take seven years so I believe.

They may not have as much gold as they tell us!

Regards Errol 43
 
TreasureHunter said:
The 9,000 tonnes and close figures appeared in a large number of blogs and writings, I read that on CNBC before I posted this question, but I also found it on SeekingAlpha and a number of other sources that are often quoted as "credible" in the PM community.

So I'm convinced now that there are lots of myths and who knows what else is inaccurate and who know what else we believed in the past simply isn't true.

Official sources and the WGC are most credible.

Never seen the 8900 number before in all my years of reading on gold. I must not be reading enough extremist publications. :D This situation is what you see on sites like King World News. Eric King's core group of people constantly refer to each other's interviews. I still go to KWN to listen/read interviews from people like Yamada, Fleckenstein, Norcini, etc. But most of them are like used car sales. Gold is going up because (fill in the blank).

In real life, I ran into this situation in 2000. One of my clients had gotten into a mult-level marketing scheme that involved gold coins and gold jewelry. He recruited his employees and the next time I was over there, I was actually surrounded by them wanting to know why I wouldn't buy into the club. I told them I could buy the coins much cheaper locally. They didn't believe me until I had them call the local coin shop. AGEs at $270 (the good old days) + 3% markup popped their bubble.
 
The Road Home said:
I believe the US has virtually no Gold left. Just remember the extreme resistance put up by relevant government officials when Ron Paul demanded an audit.

conspiracy theorists ;)

I like Ron Paul, but that was entirely political...
 
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