Update - America The Beautiful 5 oz silver coins

[monopolize]

Deception has many definitions, one of which is deception by omission.

 

[mmissinglink]

Deception has many definitions, one of which is deception by omission.

There's not even a remote hint of evidence at all presented by picturefun that there was any omission. So, we must conclude that there was no omission, simply presumptions made by picturefun who could have easily asked questions before making a purchase, and yet chose not to do the smart thing.

I can find dozens of reputable businesses that sell bullion coins using stock photos and those businesses not noting imperfections in the bullion coins they sell. This is in NO WAY an omission. No one in their right mind would expect raw bullion coins like the ATB's to be blemish-free so logically there would be no reason for a business or individual seller of bullion coins like the BU version of the ATB's to mention that they are not blemish-free. It would be no different than businesses that sell large bags of landscape stones, rocks, and pebbles to not mention that the stones are not all perfectly round since no one in their right mind would expect to buy large bags of landscape stones in which all the stones are perfectly round.

It's an absurd notion to think that bullion coins are going to be blemish-free and an even more absurd notion that a seller of raw bullion coins like BU ATB's would need to point out and specify any and all imperfections that these raw bullion coins might have....totally absurd notion in my view.

There is no omission made by the seller because 1) there is no reasonable expectation that one could have that a raw bullion coin like a BU ATB should be blemish-free and 2) no claims were made by the seller as to the condition of the raw bullion coins.



If someone wants a blemish-free bullion coin like a BU ATB, there's only two logical and sensible ways that a buyer might find satisfaction: 1) the buyer must physically inspect the coin her/himself and accept or not accept that the coin is in a condition that satisfies her/his perception of what is blemish-free 2) the buyer must purchase a graded bullion coin, graded by a reputable, top tier TGP.



As a buyer and seller myself on eBay, I can sympathize with both buyers and sellers. In cases like this where a buyer holds a completely unreasonable expectation of raw bullion coins, I definitely side with seller and clearly, leaving negative feedback for the reason stated, was wrong.



For a buyer to expect that a business or individual seller selling a raw bullion coin like a bu ATB to necessarily have to note all imperfections is a ludicrous expectation. If a specific claim of condition or quality was made and the coin received was in a condition or quality that was very different than the claim, then for sure, I might accept that there was deception....but that's not what happened with picturefun.




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[mmissinglink]

Interesting data on auction prices and volume sales of the ATB series...... http://www.ngccoin.com/auction-central/us/america-the-beautiful-5-ounce-coins-pscid-112

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[Gatito Bandito]

Yeah, all set with those prices!


EDIT: Never mind. Looks like those lots are for multiple coins, including gold..

 

[mtforpar]

I was selling the Hawaii ATB for while on eBay. I had to photograph every one of them because they all had several imperfections. In general I find that many buyers have an unreasonable expectation of a coins condition when it comes from the mint. This is reinforced through grading of modern bullion. Everyone wants a perfect one but the mints don't have the processes in place to ensure that. So many times buyers feel deceived when the truth is that the seller is just trying to sell the coins as they come from the mint and this is the condition which they come from the mint.

I will say that due to that fact and the fact that everyone's eye for what constitutes a defect is different I just hold myself to a standard of always exchanging or refunding for any customer that is unhappy. I just don't want customers to be "stuck" with coins that they are unhappy with. Having happy customers is ultimately good business and overrides what may or may not happen on any one deal. The fact that the seller would not address an unsatisfied customer when given the opportunity is justification for a negative IMHO. Also, you can simply return any item purchased on eBay for the stated reason "item not as described". That is an eBay site wide policy that no seller is exempt from.

 

[syracuse]

Perth mint Bullion coins normally do not have this issue.

Perth mint Bullion coins have better quality than ATB "P" coins.

US mint sucks.

 

[Gatito Bandito]

Perth mint Bullion coins normally do not have this issue.

Perth mint Bullion coins have better quality than ATB "P" coins.

US mint sucks.

I strongly disagree with all 3 of your sentences!


I think the US Mint puts out some horrible designs, overall..

But when they do something right, they do it *right*!

And the quality is definitely there when they want to put out quality.


As for Perth Mint? Tons of examples of various issues out there..

In fact, one of them prompted me to finally register here & post my 1st thread.

 

[Gatito Bandito]

I was selling the Hawaii ATB for while on eBay. I had to photograph every one of them because they all had several imperfections.

BU or P?

 

[picturefun]

Deception has many definitions, one of which is deception by omission.

There's not even a remote hint of evidence at all presented by picturefun that there was any omission. So, we must conclude that there was no omission, simply presumptions made by picturefun who could have easily asked questions before making a purchase, and yet chose not to do the smart thing.

...



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Ok, I will spell it OUT!! By NOT using Customized pictures but ONLY used stock photos from the Mint for Problematic coins is the BIGGEST OMISSION!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do I need to say more??

Buyers have EVERY right to expect the mentioning in the listing for ANYTHING less than meeting the naked eyes!! Since they are paying a PREMIUM, for heaven's Sake!!

The Seller is making a PROFIT!!

 

[picturefun]

I was selling the Hawaii ATB for while on eBay. I had to photograph every one of them because they all had several imperfections. In general I find that many buyers have an unreasonable expectation of a coins condition when it comes from the mint. This is reinforced through grading of modern bullion. Everyone wants a perfect one but the mints don't have the processes in place to ensure that. So many times buyers feel deceived when the truth is that the seller is just trying to sell the coins as they come from the mint and this is the condition which they come from the mint.

I will say that due to that fact and the fact that everyone's eye for what constitutes a defect is different I just hold myself to a standard of always exchanging or refunding for any customer that is unhappy. I just don't want customers to be "stuck" with coins that they are unhappy with. Having happy customers is ultimately good business and overrides what may or may not happen on any one deal. The fact that the seller would not address an unsatisfied customer when given the opportunity is justification for a negative IMHO. Also, you can simply return any item purchased on eBay for the stated reason "item not as described". That is an eBay site wide policy that no seller is exempt from.

As long as you shot the specific photo for specific coin, and the picture is HD, it will be the Buyers' responsibility to make judgement. Buyers do have the Right to expect anything, whether their expectation can be met is another question.

It is the sellers' responsibility to provide "What you see is what you get" unless the coin is nothing wrong under the Naked eyes!

and I noticed some dealers selling cleaned coins originally had milky spots. These coins looks absolutely normal under the natural day light, but under the light bulbs at the night, the original milky spots will show up. But there is NO way one can exchange this kind of coins, because they look great under naked eyes.

 

[picturefun]

Did you leave negative or just bad feedback?

Did the seller deceive in any way regarding the condition? If not, then I see it as wrong to leave negative feedback when buying bullion coins or blobs in which there is no specific quality claims attached or ascribed to these items. Bullion is bullion....these products are not intended to be sold or purchased for collector quality unless there is a very specific claim as per condition ascribed.

Now if there was specific quality claims such as "blemish-free" then that is a different matter.

I'm glad you were able to take advantage of the 4X eBay Bucks....I screwed up this time because I made a $100+ purchase on ebay but I didn't realize that I first needed to accept the offer by clicking on the link before making the purchase. I thought about contacting ebay and asking them to honor the 4 X eBay Bucks anyway even though I didn't follow the proper protocol. Do you think it's worth going through the trouble of doing that?


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Look, I sell coins on Ebay TOO! If I have any coin that have scratches or spots, I will NOT use stock photo. I usually take the picture myself for that coin, and write in the listing, the coin you see in the picture is the coin you are buying. I even mention where is the milky spots, or where is the scratch, or capsule has marks.

But this seller of Everglade BU ATB used ONLY stock photo, and had NEVER mentioned coins he was selling have spots, scratches! And when I got them, I contacted him, he refused to do exchange. so what am I supposed to do, leave 5 Star feedback for him??? LOL.

I do NOT know what is your standard of DECEIVING! For me, what he did was Nothing but deceiving!! I would NEVER sell problematic coins like that with nothing mentioned in the listing, and use the Stock photo only!!

The seller deserves NOTHING but a NEGATIVE feedback! And yes, that was what I gave him!

While I'm glad that you are more precise with your eBay listings (as I am as well), what the seller you described did is NOT deception, you simply made assumptions. Anyone who is interested in buying something has the very simple ability to ask questions before buying, including asking to have actual pictures taken and posted or sent. If the seller doesn't respond, then no one is forcing you to buy from that seller.

The lack of communication began with you, not the seller.

What deception is, is making claims that aren't true. The seller never did that. ATB bullion coins are not collector coins and they have always had quality problems since the very beginning. A smart person avoids assumptions by asking questions before buying. Also, I have returned some items over the years that were not as described but I have never purchased a bullion coin based on assumptions.

Your assumptions made the experience a bad one for both of you.



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Then I have to tell you this, You and I have DIFFERENT definition about deception.

I agree with what monopolize said:
"Deception has many definitions, one of which is deception by omission."

By using stock photos from the Mint, the seller is committing a BIGGEST Omission!

I also bought several white mount 5 oz BU from Providentmetals, one of them NOT meeting my naked eyes, so did an exchange. They even refunded me for Shipping!!

No, I do NOT expect MS 69 or MS70 quality, ALL I expect is to meet my naked eyes under the natural day light! Whoever cannot meet my expectation, will NEVER see me again as a customer! It is just that simple. There are enough Good Reputable Dealers to deal with, both within the U.S. and outside the U.S.!

that is What a Dealer should do!! As I said, sellers are making PROFIT!! So they should be MORE responsible!

By the way, Here is some fact for you!!

Many individual sellers on Ebay are cherry picking the BU coins TOO! They use magnifier, to pick out 69 and 70, send to grade, leave others to Ebay sucker buyers.

I do not have problem with their picking as long as the leftover still meet my naked eyes. I do buy ungraded coins from MCM. But if not, if they OMITTED to mention the issue for the coin, and then Refused to do the exchange, that is CHEATING in my book!

 

[mtforpar]

I was selling the Hawaii ATB for while on eBay. I had to photograph every one of them because they all had several imperfections.

BU or P?

I was selling BU ones straight from mint tubes. I used a stock image for the first few but so many of them had issues that I just made it a practice to individually photograph them. It was still profitable for me but obviously took a little more time to list.

 

[Gatito Bandito]

Everglades is very cool in person, too!

Lots of detail. Also decent relief for a normal coin.. especially the neck of the larger bird.


Smoky has a slight edge, but like them both! Happy with purchases, glad I got them.


I might consider a few others from the past, depending on price.

Otherwise, will concentrate on new ones here & there.


Nice series. Something different, with the designs, size & finish..

I hope the US Mint considers doing more large sizes!

I want an ASE kilo someday..

 

[mmissinglink]

Deception has many definitions, one of which is deception by omission.

There's not even a remote hint of evidence at all presented by picturefun that there was any omission. So, we must conclude that there was no omission, simply presumptions made by picturefun who could have easily asked questions before making a purchase, and yet chose not to do the smart thing.

...



.

Ok, I will spell it OUT!! By NOT using Customized pictures but ONLY used stock photos from the Mint for Problematic coins is the BIGGEST OMISSION!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do I need to say more??

Buyers have EVERY right to expect the mentioning in the listing for ANYTHING less than meeting the naked eyes!! Since they are paying a PREMIUM, for heaven's Sake!!

The Seller is making a PROFIT!!

Wrong! That's not an omission, it's simply you having unreasonable expectations. If you would bother to check what I'd stated previously, you'd have confirmed by yourself that I was correct and that many if not most volume sellers and dealers that sell low premium bu ATB's do not take individualized pictures of each and every coin. To expect that sellers do is unreasonable. And besides, if you don't like stock photos, then don't buy from that seller....period. You are playing the victim when you simply made poor decisions.


The fact that there is a premium charged for coins is a straw man argument that you have erected because premiums on coins is the norm, not the exception and besides, this issue is not about premiums on coins, it's about your expectations not being met and you buying something that you were not forced to buy - bad decision making on your part.

The same thing goes for sellers making a profit....it's an absurd suggestion to expect that sellers should not be interested in making a profit. Why on earth would you even point that out....making a profit is the norm. And besides this has nothing at all to do with the fact that you made unreasonable expectations because there's no obligation for a seller to post individualized pictures of low premium bullion coins like the ATB's.

If you want a perfect bullion coin, buy one that you can hold in your hand before paying for it or buy a graded coin...why do you make a big project and play the victim when it's your own poor decisions that has caused this grief for you and the seller?


I would appreciate it if you provide me with your eBay user name so that I can make sure I put you at the top of my Blocked Bidders List.



As for the several sellers that go the extra step to post individualized photos of every low premium bullion coin they sell, that's fine and dandy but it is not a requisite and not even the norm in terms of low premium volume bu sales.




.

 

[mmissinglink]

Everglades is very cool in person, too!

Lots of detail. Also decent relief for a normal coin.. especially the neck of the larger bird.


Smoky has a slight edge, but like them both! Happy with purchases, glad I got them.


I might consider a few others from the past, depending on price.

Otherwise, will concentrate on new ones here & there.


Nice series. Something different, with the designs, size & finish..

I hope the US Mint considers doing more large sizes!

I want an ASE kilo someday..

Agreed with all. A couple of years ago (I think in this very forum) I mentioned how cool it would be that the U.S. Mint produce a kilo silver Eagle. I think before they do that, the Eagle design needs to be changed. The CCAC had proposed some new alternative eagle designs that I think are far better (more aesthetically appealing) than the current design. We can only hope!




.

 

[Gatito Bandito]

Agreed with all. A couple of years ago (I think in this very forum) I mentioned how cool it would be that the U.S. Mint produce a kilo silver Eagle. I think before they do that, the Eagle design needs to be changed. The CCAC had proposed some new alternative eagle designs that I think are far better (more aesthetically appealing) than the current design. We can only hope!

Heck, I wouldn't mind even a 10-oz or a large-diameter 5-oz (like ATB) for an ASE!


And maybe I'm weird, but I actually like the current ASE design..

My favorite out of every coin out there? No. But it's still pretty cool.

Enough so that I picked up a proof, a reverse proof, and an enhanced mint state one, as well.. That reverse proof is pretty sick!


Anyway, perhaps the US Mint needs to hear our demands, and then they will act..

Have multiple email addresses?

 

[mmissinglink]

Agreed with all. A couple of years ago (I think in this very forum) I mentioned how cool it would be that the U.S. Mint produce a kilo silver Eagle. I think before they do that, the Eagle design needs to be changed. The CCAC had proposed some new alternative eagle designs that I think are far better (more aesthetically appealing) than the current design. We can only hope!

Heck, I wouldn't mind even a 10-oz or a large-diameter 5-oz (like ATB) for an ASE!


And maybe I'm weird, but I actually like the current ASE design..

My favorite out of every coin out there? No. But it's still pretty cool.

Enough so that I picked up a proof, a reverse proof, and an enhanced mint state one, as well.. That reverse proof is pretty sick!


Anyway, perhaps the US Mint needs to hear our demands, and then they will act..

Have multiple email addresses?

Yeah, like multiple tens of thousands of email addresses.

I think it takes Treasury or even Congressional approval to change the design....that'll require heavy lifting me thinks.



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[picturefun]

There's not even a remote hint of evidence at all presented by picturefun that there was any omission. So, we must conclude that there was no omission, simply presumptions made by picturefun who could have easily asked questions before making a purchase, and yet chose not to do the smart thing.

...



.

Ok, I will spell it OUT!! By NOT using Customized pictures but ONLY used stock photos from the Mint for Problematic coins is the BIGGEST OMISSION!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do I need to say more??

Buyers have EVERY right to expect the mentioning in the listing for ANYTHING less than meeting the naked eyes!! Since they are paying a PREMIUM, for heaven's Sake!!

The Seller is making a PROFIT!!

Wrong! That's not an omission, it's simply you having unreasonable expectations. If you would bother to check what I'd stated previously, you'd have confirmed by yourself that I was correct and that many if not most volume sellers and dealers that sell low premium bu ATB's do not take individualized pictures of each and every coin. To expect that sellers do is unreasonable. And besides, if you don't like stock photos, then don't buy from that seller....period. You are playing the victim when you simply made poor decisions.


The fact that there is a premium charged for coins is a straw man argument that you have erected because premiums on coins is the norm, not the exception and besides, this issue is not about premiums on coins, it's about your expectations not being met and you buying something that you were not forced to buy - bad decision making on your part.

The same thing goes for sellers making a profit....it's an absurd suggestion to expect that sellers should not be interested in making a profit. Why on earth would you even point that out....making a profit is the norm. And besides this has nothing at all to do with the fact that you made unreasonable expectations because there's no obligation for a seller to post individualized pictures of low premium bullion coins like the ATB's.

If you want a perfect bullion coin, buy one that you can hold in your hand before paying for it or buy a graded coin...why do you make a big project and play the victim when it's your own poor decisions that has caused this grief for you and the seller?


I would appreciate it if you provide me with your eBay user name so that I can make sure I put you at the top of my Blocked Bidders List.



As for the several sellers that go the extra step to post individualized photos of every low premium bullion coin they sell, that's fine and dandy but it is not a requisite and not even the norm in terms of low premium volume bu sales.




.

LOL. you sure have a big EGO! Before you ban me, I already BANNED you. Seller like you is NOT someone I want to deal with!

As I said. I have some very good Dealers who provide excellent services to deal with, and I am discovering MORE everyday, often times from other countries. and I am staying with them.

Plus, now for the ATB 5 oz BU coins, I ONLY buy from Reputable dealers, whom I know for sure I can do exchange in case the coins do NOT meet my naked eyes.

 

[mmissinglink]

Ok, I will spell it OUT!! By NOT using Customized pictures but ONLY used stock photos from the Mint for Problematic coins is the BIGGEST OMISSION!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do I need to say more??

Buyers have EVERY right to expect the mentioning in the listing for ANYTHING less than meeting the naked eyes!! Since they are paying a PREMIUM, for heaven's Sake!!

The Seller is making a PROFIT!!

Wrong! That's not an omission, it's simply you having unreasonable expectations. If you would bother to check what I'd stated previously, you'd have confirmed by yourself that I was correct and that many if not most volume sellers and dealers that sell low premium bu ATB's do not take individualized pictures of each and every coin. To expect that sellers do is unreasonable. And besides, if you don't like stock photos, then don't buy from that seller....period. You are playing the victim when you simply made poor decisions.


The fact that there is a premium charged for coins is a straw man argument that you have erected because premiums on coins is the norm, not the exception and besides, this issue is not about premiums on coins, it's about your expectations not being met and you buying something that you were not forced to buy - bad decision making on your part.

The same thing goes for sellers making a profit....it's an absurd suggestion to expect that sellers should not be interested in making a profit. Why on earth would you even point that out....making a profit is the norm. And besides this has nothing at all to do with the fact that you made unreasonable expectations because there's no obligation for a seller to post individualized pictures of low premium bullion coins like the ATB's.

If you want a perfect bullion coin, buy one that you can hold in your hand before paying for it or buy a graded coin...why do you make a big project and play the victim when it's your own poor decisions that has caused this grief for you and the seller?


I would appreciate it if you provide me with your eBay user name so that I can make sure I put you at the top of my Blocked Bidders List.



As for the several sellers that go the extra step to post individualized photos of every low premium bullion coin they sell, that's fine and dandy but it is not a requisite and not even the norm in terms of low premium volume bu sales.




.

LOL. Before you ban me, I already BANNED you. As I said. I have some very good Dealers to deal with, and I am discovering MORE everyday. and I am staying with them. This is a Buyers' Market!

You can't ban a seller on ebay but please double check to make sure you placed the correct eBay user name on your eBay blocked list. Thank you.




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[Justfishin]

Blah, blah, blah, you kids done yet?

Don't make me turn this car around!!!