UK silver

G

gary3029

New Member
Whilst I accept we Brits have no choice but to pay the 20% vat on our silver purchases I am peeved that UK bullion dealers still think they can rip us off with great close to spot offers which when you read the small print only apply if you buy 1000+. To add insult to injury they then charge up to 15 for postage. I suppose there must some fools who pay these over inflated prices because these dealers are not competitive at all and don't feel a need to be. Just bought 20 maples form coindirectinvest and with postage and vat looking at 24.00 per coin. Cannot get close to that in the UK unless I buy hundreds!!!!
Come on UK dealers get real and be competitive .....perhaps some visit these forums and might comment.:(
Thanks
 
"15 for postage" on top of the 20% VAT - Jeebers! That really puts a crimp in things.
 
As an ex-UK and now Aussie Stacker, may I suggest something radical.

If your very keen on silver exposure - place an ad buying sterling silver at its respective ASW for spot - or just below.

Purchase silver, then take to the refiners.

Surely your refining costs will be cheaper than 20% VAT.

I bought a couple of rolls of the English Rose rounds while I was home last. Great coins, but I'm so glad I got my VAT back at Manchester airport. :D
 
I regularly buy from CoinInvestDirect and their UPS shipping is reasonable but you need to be ordering at least 20 oz at a time. At higher quantities they will ship free. Atkinsons from time to time are also quoting good prices but their shipping is a tad high and they add 20%VAT to shipping. Worth comparing before each purchase though. I have found Weighton to be non competive these days and I only ever use BullionbyPost for their charts, but I have bought from both previously.
From time to time I have noted the high margins quoted by Apmex in the USA so other than the dreaded VAT, Atkinsons and CoinInvestDirect are not so bad - occassionaly !
 
Tax is sometimes a weird story.
Ex dealer TheSilverMountain from Netherland:
(translated):
Precious metals are usually taxed with VAT.
Silver bars are taxed with 21% VAT.
Silver coins are traded as VAT margin goods.
Gold bars and coins are exempted from VAT as bullion gold.

This really reads as crap. It says 'usually', but no tax on gold, a much lower tax on silver coins, and only on silver bars the full tax.
And the word 'usually' should never be used in legal matters.

Now, if I take a regular bullion silver coin, ex the Maple Leaf, the monsterbox based unit price is EUR 26,80
He buys them back for EUR 24,40
The spot price is EUR 22,79
The difference between sell and buy back price is EUR 2,4 so at a same spot price you get 9% less than you paid.
The dealer sells at spot + 17,6%, and buys at spot + 7%

The dealer also offers "tax free" silver, in a depository at the customs.
A monsterbox Maples there costs EUR 12.535,00 or EUR 25,07 per ounce.
So I could now assume that the actual tax paid on a delivered monsterbox-coin is the difference delivered (tax) minus nondelivered (not tax), which is then 26,80-25,07=1,73 or + 7%
But early 2011 the dealer said that tax on coins was increased from 9 to 12%
The so-called paid tax is nowhere mentioned on the invoice.
I've read that VAT margin goods invoices should mention 'sold as margin good' on the invoice.
But that was also absent in those of my purchases.

Pick then another dealer from Netherland, Doijer&Kalff.
Literally translated from its site, about silver coins:
"The big advantage of these coins relative to the silver bars is that they are tax free."
So this is in contradiction with dealer TSM.
Yet, this D&K dealer sells a monsterbox Maple Leaf at EUR 26,86 or the same as dealer TSM.

Then the German dealer Kronwitter. A Maple Leaf costs EUR 26,30 and is listed as including 7% VAT. The price difference with the 2 Netherland dealers is 2% lower.
This again insinuates a 9% tax in the Netherlands, not 12% as TSM claimed.

Then the Belgian dealer GoldSilverBelgium. A Maple Leaf monsterbox costs there EUR 12.750 or
EUR 25,50 per coin. Compared to the socalled 'taxfree' not delivered Maples monsterbox of TheSilverMountain, it's a mere 1,7% more, so it's like it's taxfree AND delivered silver.
This dealer doesnt sell gold or silver bars, only coins. Tax is mentioned nowhere, alike it doesnt exist or isnt relevant.
The dealer has a VAT registration (I checked it).
A Maples monsterbox is EUR 640 cheaper than the Netherland dealers.

It all doesnt make sense.
I'm considering the Belgian dealer for my next purchase, but I wonder if there is a catch or something illegal going on.
 
I can live with some tax on imported stuff but paying 20% VAT on a new, legal tender Silver Britannia here within the UK really is unacceptable.

Rockin'
 
bordsilver said:
"15 for postage" on top of the 20% VAT - Jeebers! That really puts a crimp in things.
Click to expand...


I just tested a small silver bar buy from Guernsey Mint (no VAT), that ended up with 8.95 P&P then when it arrived on mainland, 16 VAT PLUS 8 for Royal Mail to tell me me I had the VAT to pay. Lesson Learned on that one, but had to find out.

Rockin'
 
It would appear for us Brits silver is a fools option. There are some good silver deals open to us, until you add vat and p&p. I think I am going to have to switch to a gold only stack and buy silver if it gets really really cheap. Boy how I wished I had bought everything around when I could pay 10 an oz, mind you spot was 3 so was peeved in those days as well.
 
Yes I have used AU trading a few times, very very poor communication and a bad attitude as well ( when you can get contact with them) also very slow delivery, by far the best in th UK is Atkinsonsthejewelers awesome service and good prices.
 
Hey everybody, first time post here. I was curious to the tax issues present in the UK and after stacking a litttle silver myself I must admit I have become slightly disillusioned with it. I have now turned my attentions to gold. I would much prefer to put my investment into silver as I believe the long term gains could be fantastic, however I just dont think its worth it for UK stackers. The 20% handicap is just too significant i think :(
 
silver sultan said:
Yes I have used AU trading a few times, very very poor communication and a bad attitude as well ( when you can get contact with them) also very slow delivery, by far the best in th UK is Atkinsonsthejewelers awesome service and good prices.
Click to expand...

Yep AU not good. +1 for Atkinsons

Interestingly UK Bullion (.co.uk) cheaper than Atkinsons for Metalor 100g Silver bar at mo.

Also noted that Atkinson being generally best prices, their silver stock lines are reducing either by sold out or are they are holding back stuff. Shortage anyone?

Rockin'
 
theriverscuomoband said:
Hey everybody, first time post here. I was curious to the tax issues present in the UK and after stacking a litttle silver myself I must admit I have become slightly disillusioned with it. I have now turned my attentions to gold. I would much prefer to put my investment into silver as I believe the long term gains could be fantastic, however I just dont think its worth it for UK stackers. The 20% handicap is just too significant i think :(
Click to expand...

Only way I see around it in UK is, buy Silver via Goldmoney or Bullionvault (no vat) then swap to gold when GSR is good, but then what do I know :cool:

Rockin'
 
Pirocco said:
This determined tax on silver and NOT on gold just proves once again that they want to drive precious metals savers to gold, a market they control way better than silver.
In Netherland there is a determined legal case going on about this tax difference gold versus silver:
http://www.silvertv.tv/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=2&Itemid=3
Click to expand...


I think the reason would have far more to do with that the big money stacks gold (denser concentration of wealth) and of course they're not going to want their preferred PM taxed




As an aside - the 20% VAT on Silver and not Gold would mean that Gold would be what I'd stack if I were in the UK
 
Nugget said:
Pirocco said:
This determined tax on silver and NOT on gold just proves once again that they want to drive precious metals savers to gold, a market they control way better than silver.
In Netherland there is a determined legal case going on about this tax difference gold versus silver:
http://www.silvertv.tv/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=2&Itemid=3
Click to expand...


I think the reason would have far more to do with that the big money stacks gold (denser concentration of wealth) and of course they're not going to want their preferred PM taxed
Click to expand...
That 'big money' doesn't need denser concentration of wealth.
Do you think 'big money' can't afford 50 times bigger storage facilities?
Do you think the 'big money' acquisition of a cheaper precious metal itself wouldn't erase the very property 'cheaper'?
How did they acquire that 'big money'. Competition on a free market? Or consequences of / interventions by central planning?
Of course they don't WANT gold to not be taxed. That it also IS not taxed, indicates exactly the link between central planning and your 'big money'.
And there you arrived on exactly what I said: they control the gold market better than the silver market.

Nugget said:
As an aside - the 20% VAT on Silver and not Gold would mean that Gold would be what I'd stack if I were in the UK
Click to expand...
Also as an aside -
Imagine the entire world taxed silver 1%
Imagine the entire world taxed silver 50%
Imagine the entire world taxed silver 99%
Do you think tax makes a difference then?
Tax is essentially just another argument based on competition. If there is no place that sells silver without tax then you pay the price and you receive the price.
I see it on auction sites. People bid more than the silver price without tax.
At least half the tax you get back, and if you are willing to put some time/effort in it, even less.
That causes the tax burden to be spreaded uniformly.
It's only when you sell back to dealers that you suffer the immediate loss (and not only tax, also the silver kind (ASE/MP/etc) premiums are lost).
Look at ebay. Often you read on forums posts alike "look they pay DOH! higher prices on ebay, those people must be <UGLYWORDHERE>!"
But that is exactly what I ment, the ebay fee has the same effect as tax. But ebay has alternatives (auction sites that don't demand fees).
This UK - Guernsey Islands example shows that the foreign alternatives are taken out.
For a UK based person, that means that selling in UK itself is spreading the cost inflicted by the tax element, you pay more, but you get more.
Selling to foreign countries is an extra burden (foreign tax insertion(Guernsey example) shipping costs/extra risks) that can easily equal the local tax cost.

Maybe for those that do NOT stack the precious metal, but play the cyclic game sell/buy back in game instead, tax makes it harder. But on the other hand, the gold market has less newbies willing to pay too much, so the profit outlook there is smaller. So that's why even those (temporary!) opt for silver, despite tax, haha. But as said, that's cyclic game doesnt stack the metal, and you clearly said 'would be what I'd STACK'.
 
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