True value of second hand bullion

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but utterly perpflexed by the concept that perhaps premium on non-numismatic bullion has little to no value to be passed on 2nd hand.
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It's simple market forces at work. As long as other people are willing to pay $X above spot for a bar, people will continue to sell at around $X above spot for the bar.

Why would people be willing to pay $X above spot?

Because nowhere else in Australia can they get the exact same item at under $X above spot.

If you were given a choice between a 1kg bar from a dealer at $1000 and a 1kg bar from internetforumzdude at $975 (assuming spot value = $950), ceteris parabis you would go for the internetforumzdude's bar since silver is silver.

Internetforumzdude has no motivation or incentive to sell at $950 as there will always be willing buyers to pay slightly above spot but below dealer prices.
 
RomanControl said:
Yippe-Ki-Ya said:
Just curious - do you think of silver/gold as money??

I certainly do, and if one thinks of silver as money then it has the same value - whether or not it's brand spanking new or whether it's been through a couple of hands ...

savvie??
Click to expand...

Yes i have a natural instinct that tells me its money when I look at it.
I think you have confused the money itself with the premium paid for the manufacture of it.
In which case you have entirely missed the point of the thread.
And its a really simple one.
Click to expand...

okay, so you acknowledge the inherent value in the silver itself. So let's say you are purchasing 1 troye once of silver ... for spot price you can get a shapeless blob of silver.

If you prefer (which i do) to receive this troye ounce of silver in a slightly more pleasing form - say a 1 ounce bar - then you will need to cover the cost of manufacuring that 1 ounce bar! so now you get a nice looking 1 troye ounce bar for (spot + x) - where x represents the cost of manufacturing the bar/round. Still no numismatics here - just a relatively nice looking piece of silver (no longer shapeless) which has a stamp noting the purity, weight and manufacturer of said piece of silver. Now if it's a "name brand" (eg PAMP, Perth Mint, Ainslie) then the purity and weight stamped onto said bar can be taken at face value!
The point is - the cost factor 'x' is NOT some fluffy amount which simply represents profit to the dealer - it's an INHERENT PART OF THE VALUE OF THIS PIECE OF BULLION!
i.e.
it is ACTUALLY WORTH (SPOT + x) due to its convenient/pleasing to the eye shape, and stamp of authenticity.

This is why you can resell this ounce of silver for around (spot + x) - because at the time you sell it - it will still (hopefully) be in the same convenient size/shape/form and still have the same well known brand stamp on it guarenteeing its authenticity!

Or you could try to sell a shapeless blob of silver at spot price and see if you have many takers....

Personally, I'd much prefer to buy the 1 troye ounce bar at spot + x
to buying a 1 troye ounce shapeless blob of (hopefully) silver at spot.

but maybe thats just me...

savvie???
 
fishball said:
but utterly perpflexed by the concept that perhaps premium on non-numismatic bullion has little to no value to be passed on 2nd hand.
Click to expand...

It's simple market forces at work. As long as other people are willing to pay $X above spot for a bar, people will continue to sell at around $X above spot for the bar.

Why would people be willing to pay $X above spot?

Because nowhere else in Australia can they get the exact same item at under $X above spot.

If you were given a choice between a 1kg bar from a dealer at $1000 and a 1kg bar from internetforumzdude at $975 (assuming spot value = $950), ceteris parabis you would go for the internetforumzdude's bar since silver is silver.

Internetforumzdude has no motivation or incentive to sell at $950 as there will always be willing buyers to pay slightly above spot but below dealer prices.
Click to expand...

its a good example, but lets say spot is $1000, the dealer charges $1100 . Second hand its 1075

I'd pay the extra $25 because I'm buying something with the premium Im paying. For $100 I know Im getting real silver from a reputable dealer and I have recourse if there are problems.

For $75 from internetforumzdude I'm getting nothing for my money except the manufacturing cost. Which is neglible.

Id rather pay $100 for something of value, than $75 for nothing of value. The rest of the world has this approach too, so perhaps they're all retarded and we are geniuses here.
 
If I was a silver is silver stacker I'd get the most ounces I can at the lowest possible cost regardless of it coming from internetforumzdude, dealers or eBay.

Just because you aren't willing to pay the premiums doesn't mean the majority of the population isn't.

Also I would have thought you'd pay EXTRA for the 'lack of papertrail' in private sales as opposed to giving dealers your details.

For some people that $75 premium from the private seller could include:

- Convenience of F2F
- No questions asked
- Purchase from internet, save on petrol etc
- Stock available now, no waiting 6 weeks bullshyt
- No paper trail

If it wasn't worth $75 to someone somewhere then the seller would be unable to sell his shyt even if he bumps 50 times. Then the market will correct itself and the seller will either have to sell cheaper or not sell at all.
 
Yippe-Ki-Ya said:
RomanControl said:
Yippe-Ki-Ya said:
Just curious - do you think of silver/gold as money??

I certainly do, and if one thinks of silver as money then it has the same value - whether or not it's brand spanking new or whether it's been through a couple of hands ...

savvie??
Click to expand...

Yes i have a natural instinct that tells me its money when I look at it.
I think you have confused the money itself with the premium paid for the manufacture of it.
In which case you have entirely missed the point of the thread.
And its a really simple one.
Click to expand...

okay, so you acknowledge the inherent value in the silver itself. So let's say you are purchasing 1 troye once of silver ... for spot price you can get a shapeless blob of silver.

If you prefer (which i do) to receive this troye ounce of silver in a slightly more pleasing form - say a 1 ounce bar - then you will need to cover the cost of manufacuring that 1 ounce bar! so now you get a nice looking 1 troye ounce bar for (spot + x) - where x represents the cost of manufacturing the bar/round. Still no numismatics here - just a relatively nice looking piece of silver (no longer shapeless) which has a stamp noting the purity, weight and manufacturer of said piece of silver. Now if it's a "name brand" (eg PAMP, Perth Mint, Ainslie) then the purity and weight stamped onto said bar can be taken at face value!
The point is - the cost factor 'x' is NOT some fluffy amount which simply represents profit to the dealer - it's an INHERENT PART OF THE VALUE OF THIS PIECE OF BULLION!
i.e.
it is ACTUALLY WORTH (SPOT + x) due to its convenient/pleasing to the eye shape, and stamp of authenticity.

This is why you can resell this ounce of silver for around (spot + x) - because at the time you sell it - it will still (hopefully) be in the same convenient size/shape/form and still have the same well known brand stamp on it guarenteeing its authenticity!

Or you could try to sell a shapeless blob of silver at spot price and see if you have many takers....

Personally, I'd much prefer to buy the 1 troye ounce bar at spot + x
to buying a 1 troye ounce shapeless blob of (hopefully) silver at spot.

but maybe thats just me...

savvie???
Click to expand...


I savvy but don't agree that the premium of new bullion reflects manufacturing costs. If it costs that much to put metal in a mould, they're in the wrong business.

As far as knowing you have silver because of a stamp on the bullion is concerned, to my mind, the danger of it not being silver derives from dishonest folks trying to counterfeit silver.
Which would mean they would be aware of big name mints and the stamps they use. Or would choose popular brands to hollow out and fill with cheese.
So I don't think that stamp has value second hand as far as authenticity is concerned.
 
RomanControl said:
fishball said:
but utterly perpflexed by the concept that perhaps premium on non-numismatic bullion has little to no value to be passed on 2nd hand.
Click to expand...

It's simple market forces at work. As long as other people are willing to pay $X above spot for a bar, people will continue to sell at around $X above spot for the bar.

Why would people be willing to pay $X above spot?

Because nowhere else in Australia can they get the exact same item at under $X above spot.

If you were given a choice between a 1kg bar from a dealer at $1000 and a 1kg bar from internetforumzdude at $975 (assuming spot value = $950), ceteris parabis you would go for the internetforumzdude's bar since silver is silver.

Internetforumzdude has no motivation or incentive to sell at $950 as there will always be willing buyers to pay slightly above spot but below dealer prices.
Click to expand...

its a good example, but lets say spot is $1000, the dealer charges $1100 . Second hand its 1075

I'd pay the extra $25 because I'm buying something with the premium Im paying. For $100 I know Im getting real silver from a reputable dealer and I have recourse if there are problems.
Click to expand...

Speak for yourself! If i purchase a PAMP bar or an Ainslie bar I dont need "recourse" because it's easy to do a bit of due diligence to avoid purchasing a fake.

RomanControl said:
For $75 from internetforumzdude I'm getting nothing for my money except the manufacturing cost. Which is neglible.
Click to expand...
Untrue - you will be getting EXACTLY the same thing for $25 less.
 
RomanControl said:
I savvy but don't agree that the premium of new bullion reflects manufacturing costs.
Click to expand...

I agree that they do add a bit of fat to the cost of manufacturing, but they have to make a small profit ON TOP OF THE INHERENT VALUE OF THE BULLION (which includes the cost of manufacture of the bar/round)
The solution is really simple mate - just dont buy directly from the dealer then!
This way you only need to pay for the inherent value of the bullion - which includes the cost of manufacture of the bar - which is why it will always cost above spot price. (so you only pay $1075 instead of $1100 as Fish has explained)

RomanControl said:
As far as knowing you have silver because of a stamp on the bullion is concerned, to my mind, the danger of it not being silver derives from dishonest folks trying to counterfeit silver.
Which would mean they would be aware of big name mints and the stamps they use. Or would choose popular brands to hollow out and fill with cheese.
So I don't think that stamp has value second hand as far as authenticity is concerned.
Click to expand...

This is nonsense mate. Especially for an intelligent dude like yourself!
Fortunately it's a relatively easy job to tell if a bar is authentic or not - the reason being that silver has a very specific density!
So - for a given volume it has to have a certain weight ...
So you take with an identical bar (say PAMP/Perth Mint/Ainslie) and then you compare your genuine bar with the one on offer.
if
1. It has the same volume
2. It has the same/correct mas
then Bob's ya uncle mate!! It's genuine...

[and Fanny's ya aunt!] :lol:
savvie??
 
This is all pointless ,it's like trying to tell somebody the world is round when they are convinced the world is flat
Nothing we say here will make a difference to him :rolleyes:
 
RomanControl said:
Well if you go through this thread Fishball, you'll find that except for 2 men, the rest of the utterly confused are dealers.
Click to expand...

I am one of the utterly confused who is not a dealer, who is the other?

If Fishball goes through this thread he will be none the wiser than when he started, in fact, he will be a little bit dumber by association.

"There is none so blind as he who will not see" or to put it in a form you might relate to better, Jeremiah 5:21
 
bump a brain cell :(

use a marker and write +$10 is the service fee on this silver bar.

so if you are buying spot+molding fee+ remember to add this $10 service fee as well. so it is written.

there is no second hand bullion!

just melt them and the mint will give you a freshly minted 1992 kook

wah lah, where did that premium went to ? huh....its has been melted too.
 
Jislizard said:
RomanControl said:
Well if you go through this thread Fishball, you'll find that except for 2 men, the rest of the utterly confused are dealers.
Click to expand...

I am one of the utterly confused who is not a dealer, who is the other?

If Fishball goes through this thread he will be none the wiser than when he started, in fact, he will be a little bit dumber by association.

"There is none so blind as he who will not see" or to put it in a form you might relate to better, Jeremiah 5:21
Click to expand...

Oh dear
god agrees with you ?
( and the dealers who enthusiastically thank each other here just as they enthusiastically ramp up each other's sales- unless its silverdollareconomy who I noted got a severe critisism from a dealer in his sales thread. Which I thought wasn't kosher for anyone to do. But he isnt in the club so its fair game I suppose)

Enough said.
I rest my case.
 
Second Hand = concept

Particles reassemble to form new atoms.
Atoms reassemble to form new states of matter.
What was a tree yesterday could be toilet paper today. Does that mean the toilet paper is 'second hand' too?

We normally associate something as being 'second hand' with condition, yet the real meaning is to 'change hands' (i.e. ownership).

That being said; if you bought a barrel of oil that had two previous owners, is it considered 'second hand'? Technically, yes. However, the condition of the oil determines value. Apply this analogy to bullion.
If the bullion is still in 'mint condition' then it can not be classed 'second hand'. However, if the condition has deteriorated, we wannabes like to instead use fancy substituted words, such as, numismatic, grade or skid marks.

It's all in your head.
.
 
RomanControl seems to think that spannermonkey is a dealer.

ROFL.

A peddler of bananas maybe, a dealer? HAHA
 
fishball said:
RomanControl seems to think that spannermonkey is a dealer.

ROFL.

A peddler of bananas maybe, a dealer? HAHA
Click to expand...

He is a site sponsor so it wouldn't surprise - he has lots of tricks up his sleeve ;)

maybe he deals in tricks? :P
 
You just don't get it RC :rolleyes:
"second hand bullion" is a concept that's being wished into existance by yourself.
It has no base in reality, as pointed out numerous times by multiple people on here.
But all the proof given is merely ignored because it doesn't suit your wish to alter market reality.

BTW I'm not a dealer either - I've made 6 sales in the year I've been on here (mostly in the last 3 weeks to get some cash)

"The problem arguing with a fool, is that he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience" :/
 
fishball said:
RomanControl seems to think that spannermonkey is a dealer.

ROFL.

A peddler of bananas maybe, a dealer? HAHA
Click to expand...

Yes a pedler of bananas :lol:

I have to admit ,I did think about becoming a dealer ,anybody want to lend me $800,000
There's a coin dealer who wants to retire & I want his shop :D
 
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