The war for fresh water

mmm....shiney! said:
Court Jester said:
Something as critical as water should never be left solely in the hands of private enterprise

Why not?

What magical powers do governments possess that ensures they are the most effective and efficient providers of one of the basic needs of life?

Court Jester said:
There is no reason why we cant have some of the cheapest electricity in the world in this country powered by renewable / nuclear power in Australia.

If you want government management of electricity then it won't come cheap.


they did in all states and in the few that did sell off their assets the price sky rocketed(SA VIC) . The government controlled power assets clearly has kept the price down. That is one of the reason there is huge opposition to the current scum of the earth liberals plans in QLD and NSW to sell these assets off.

Currently all drinking water assets are government owned as far as I ma aware.
 
hawkeye said:
Court Jester said:
Something as critical as water food should never be left solely in the hands of private enterprise

If it's true for water why not for food? I mean, surely you are not suggesting that the provision of food should be left to something as unreliable as the market?


food is not as critical.

you can survive weeks without anything to eat, approx 4 days without water.

and again as far as I know all drinking water assets in this country are government owned as far as I am aware so that is allready the case

water will not be a battle ground in the future the technology is already here to see that not be an issue.
 
bordsilver said:
Court Jester said:
There is no reason why we cant have some of the cheapest electricity in the world in this country powered by renewable / nuclear power in Australia. We have abundant amounts of both. ( renewable energy sources and uranium ore )
The biggest reason to date has been that the cheapest electricity has not been from most renewables or nuclear - abundant or not. When they are actually cost effective there's no reason why we can't adopt them then. Whether it will be 2016, 2020 or 2050 who knows.


nuclear is one of the cheapest sources or electricity considering the CT that we now have in place. I was not talking about renewables when talking about cheap but if the CT ( and Phoney Tony prob wont be removing ti any time soon as promised ) stays they are looking more attractive.
 
Court Jester said:
mmm....shiney! said:
Court Jester said:
Something as critical as water should never be left solely in the hands of private enterprise

Why not?

What magical powers do governments possess that ensures they are the most effective and efficient providers of one of the basic needs of life?

Court Jester said:
There is no reason why we cant have some of the cheapest electricity in the world in this country powered by renewable / nuclear power in Australia.

If you want government management of electricity then it won't come cheap.


they did in all states and in the few that did sell off their assets the price sky rocketed(SA VIC) . The government controlled power assets clearly has kept the price down. That is one of the reason there is huge opposition to the current scum of the earth liberals plans in QLD and NSW to sell these assets off.
We've had this conversation in the past and most of the propaganda surrounding the privatisations simply isn't true.

6824_elynetworks.png
 
Court Jester said:
nuclear is one of the cheapest sources or electricity considering the CT that we now have in place. I was not talking about renewables when talking about cheap but if the CT ( and Phoney Tony prob wont be removing ti any time soon as promised ) stays they are looking more attractive.
Well you shouldn't have said powered by renewables then. W.r.t. nuclear I think it is still highly debatable about whether it would have actually been cheaper in the past and whether it is even an economic option at the moment.
 
Surprisingly, on Tuesday I shared a flight with several high level executives from one of the big electricity suppliers.

I won't go into detail, but I would not be surprised if the cost of electricity goes up.
 
bordsilver said:
Court Jester said:
mmm....shiney! said:
Why not?

What magical powers do governments possess that ensures they are the most effective and efficient providers of one of the basic needs of life?



If you want government management of electricity then it won't come cheap.


they did in all states and in the few that did sell off their assets the price sky rocketed(SA VIC) . The government controlled power assets clearly has kept the price down. That is one of the reason there is huge opposition to the current scum of the earth liberals plans in QLD and NSW to sell these assets off.
We've had this conversation in the past and most of the propaganda surrounding the privatisations simply isn't true.

http://forums.silverstackers.com/uploads/6824_elynetworks.png


That graph is not how much we pay and is not relevant to this discussion.

in QLD we pay less per day connection fee and less per kw/h than consumers in Victoria r SA or NSW

Even if their costs bases are higher,( QLD is a much bigger state with a far less de-centralized population -- the network bases costs are higher here than VIC) it means they are happy to make less profit, unlike the private companies runnin the show in SA and VIC.
 
The Nestle CEO made a video. Paraphrasing his statements: Water should be considered a foodstuff with a market value. Privatisation of water supply is good. Water should have a price. Access to water as a fundamental right is a disagreeable extremist position of NGOs. "Specific measures" should be taken for the part of the population that then has no access to privatised water.

Statements made just after the 2min mark in this video.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C29_U0Ksao[/youtube]
 
SilverPete said:
The Nestle CEO made a video. Paraphrasing his statements: Water should be considered a foodstuff with a market value. Privatisation of water supply is good. Water should have a price. Access to water as a fundamental right is a disagreeable extremist position of NGOs. "Specific measures" should be taken for the part of the population that then has no access to privatised water.

Statements made just after the 2min mark in this video.
Obvious douchebag has never had to struggle to get fresh water.
 
doomsday surprise said:
SilverPete said:
The Nestle CEO made a video. Paraphrasing his statements: Water should be considered a foodstuff with a market value. Privatisation of water supply is good. Water should have a price. Access to water as a fundamental right is a disagreeable extremist position of NGOs. "Specific measures" should be taken for the part of the population that then has no access to privatised water.

Statements made just after the 2min mark in this video.
Obvious douchebag has never had to struggle to get fresh water.

Water does have a price anyway. Someone has to provide it and they have to be paid one way or another.

The fact remains that the best way for a product to achieve the widest possible distribution is if there is a profit to be made on it. If you have a competitive market so that profit margins are low, the only way that companies can make decent amounts of money is through lots of volume which means lots of sales to as many people as possible.

What he's saying is that those who for whatever reason can't get it, then they should be helped out so they can get access. Why is that a douche thing to say?
 
boston said:
Surprisingly, on Tuesday I shared a flight with several high level executives from one of the big electricity suppliers.

I won't go into detail, but I would not be surprised if the cost of electricity goes up.

Details would be nice. :)
 
People don't like the idea of water (or other things) being monetised, I think, because the money and financial system that we currently have is f**ked up to say the least. It creates massive imbalances everywhere from the global scale of country finances right down to people's personal finances.

I don't think this would be an issue if money was the unbiased measuring tool that it should be. But at the moment it's like a ruler where the unit lengths are constantly changing (and not even in a predictable way) and so people have learnt to distrust it. The ironic thing is that they usually go running to the institution that wrecked money.
 
JulieW said:
boston said:
Surprisingly, on Tuesday I shared a flight with several high level executives from one of the big electricity suppliers.

I won't go into detail, but I would not be surprised if the cost of electricity goes up.

Details would be nice. :)

I just thought that it was an obvious and statement that has been widely discussed in mainstream media to prepare the masses.
Don't really need details as it has been flagged before.
 
Naphthalene Man said:
JulieW said:
boston said:
Surprisingly, on Tuesday I shared a flight with several high level executives from one of the big electricity suppliers.

I won't go into detail, but I would not be surprised if the cost of electricity goes up.

Details would be nice. :)

I just thought that it was an obvious and statement that has been widely discussed in mainstream media to prepare the masses.
Don't really need details as it has been flagged before.

I thought they may have said something that could be another piece in the puzzle.

There's no subject more likely to stir people up than rising electricity bills. With prices roughly doubling since 2007, that's hardly surprising. But why have prices risen so fast? And will they keep rising?

It has suited various business lobbies and Coalition politicians - federal and state - to leave people with the impression the main reason is the carbon tax and the renewable energy target, which requires that 20 per cent of Australia's electricity come from renewable energy sources by 2020.

In truth, the price rises started well before these measures took effect and they explain only a small part of the increase. Which suggests the politicians will suffer yet another loss of credibility when eventually (and stupidly) the carbon tax is abolished and the renewables target is dropped, as seems on the cards, but power prices don't seem to fall by much.

The more important reasons were given by Professor Ross Garnaut, of the University of Melbourne, in a recent speech. Here's my version of his explanation.

One part of the reason is that more people have been using renewable energy and this reduced their demand for conventional electricity from the grid, which is produced mainly by coal-fired generators, of course.

Apart from all the wind turbines, governments - federal and state, Coalition and Labor - have offered incentives to people to incur the significant expense of installing rooftop solar power systems.

The most generous of these incentive schemes have been abandoned but, at the same time, the cost of photovoltaic systems has been falling rapidly, partly because of advances in technology, partly because more purchasers mean greater economies of scale.

The most important economic characteristic of renewable energy is that once you've incurred the high ''fixed cost'' of installing a system, the ''variable cost'' of using the system to produce more energy is negligible. Sunshine is free. So once you've got a system, you use it.

A second important part of the reason for rising power prices is that many businesses and households have reacted to the rising price by being more economical - less wasteful - in their use of electricity.

Another factor (one many economists tend to ignore) is that all the talk about the need to reduce emissions of carbon dioxide to stop climate change, and all the talk about how much power we waste, has made more firms and householders waste-conscious. Some people are being careful in their use of electricity as a self-interested response to its rising price, while others - including businesses - are doing it from a sense of duty to society.

By now, I trust, a big red light is flashing in your head. If people are using less power from the grid because more of them are collecting their own and more are reducing their wastage of electricity, doesn't that mean demand for conventional power is falling?

Indeed it does. According to figures from the Grattan Institute, since late 2009 electricity demand in eastern Australia has fallen by about 7 per cent.

But hang on, is this guy saying the price of electricity has gone up because demand for it has gone down? Isn't it supposed to be the other way round? Isn't a fall in demand supposed to lead to a fall in the price?

Well, assuming no change in supply, yes it is. So you're right to be to be puzzled. The relationship I've described between price and demand is, as an economist would say, ''perverse''.

But why? Because, as Garnaut explains, we've stuffed up the deregulation of the electricity market. (Moral: as we're being reminded by the plan to ''deregulate'' university fees, if you deregulate or privatise without knowing what you're doing you can make things worse rather than better.)

Before the reform process began, each state had its own, government-owned electricity monopoly, with little trade between the states. From the late 1980s it was decided to break the integrated state monopolies into their component parts - generation, transmission, distribution and retailing - and form one big eastern Australian electricity market with as much competition and as little monopoly as possible.

The power stations were separated into individual businesses - some of which were privatised, particularly in Victoria - and made to compete in a highly sophisticated ''national'' wholesale market for electricity. Garnaut says this has worked well, with competition keeping the wholesale price low in response to the reduced demand.

But transmission (high-voltage power lines) and distribution (local poles and wires to the premises) are natural monopolies. That is, it's not economic to have more than one network. So whether these businesses are publicly or privately owned, the prices they charge have to be regulated to prevent them overcharging.

Trouble is, Garnaut says, we've done this by fixing the maximum rate of return the businesses are allowed to earn on the capital they have invested. Economists have known for 60 years that this always causes problems because it's so hard to pick the right rate of return.

If it's too low it leads to underinvestment in the physical network, causing blackouts. If it's too high, however, it leads to overinvestment in the network at the expense of business and household customers.

But as well, when monopoly businesses that are guaranteed a certain rate of return suffer a loss of demand, the regulator has to allow them to restore their profitability by raising their prices.

Another red light flashing? Surely if you keep responding to a fall in demand by raising prices, this will lead to a further fall in demand (particularly as the cost of renewable energy keeps falling) and the whole thing will keep going round and round and getting worse and worse.

Just so. People in the know call it a ''death spiral''. One day soon the regulators of the regulators - aka federal and state governments - will have to step in and call the madness to a halt. Until then, prices will keep rising.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/why-...hock-people-20140613-3a2va.html#ixzz34cjzD5Ep
 
^ Blaming the regulator for the price of electricity and then calling on the regulator to solve the problem?
 
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