The M O N A L I S A OF SILVER BARs

[Aureus]

smells a little like pump & dump.

Not to crap on those who are paying serious money for old silver, but, it's seriously risky play from an investment point of view.
There are people out there with hordes of old PM silver, and I bet grandchildren waiting for that will to kick in. Does not take big numbers to completely screw premiums in this game, and if you think that's unlikely to happen there is more than 1 member on this forum quietly having a chuckle.


happened before will happen again, time is the only unknown.

I agree why not share and post a pic, you may help to slow down a lot of the pumping and dumping....in this type of bar

I haven't seen the owners in years now. Knew them well enough to suggest they wouldn't sell what they had though.
What I have seen in my life is more than enough to steer clear of this game, take from that what you will, I could be wrong in thinking they'll ever get on the market.

I have absolutely no desire to persuade anyone to believe me, couldn't care less. I just think some people here need to calm down a little and realise scarcity does not equal mintage numbers - not by a long shot.

 

[fishtaco]

smells a little like pump & dump.

Not to crap on those who are paying serious money for old silver, but, it's seriously risky play from an investment point of view.
There are people out there with hordes of old PM silver, and I bet grandchildren waiting for that will to kick in. Does not take big numbers to completely screw premiums in this game, and if you think that's unlikely to happen there is more than 1 member on this forum quietly having a chuckle.


happened before will happen again, time is the only unknown.

I agree why not share and post a pic, you may help to slow down a lot of the pumping and dumping....in this type of bar

I haven't seen the owners in years now. Knew them well enough to suggest they wouldn't sell what they had though.
What I have seen in my life is more than enough to steer clear of this game, take from that what you will, I could be wrong in thinking they'll ever get on the market.

I have absolutely no desire to persuade anyone to believe me, couldn't care less. I just think some people here need to calm down a little and realise scarcity does not equal mintage numbers - not by a long shot.

Pump and Dump is rife in the PM,s world its just some cant see it or are too new to PM,s to realize just how rife it is.

To presume a bar of silver is scarce just because that particular bar doesnt get seen often or sold-on much and had a low manufacture number is stupidity without fact to back up the scarcity.

You would need to servey Perth Mint silver bar mintages sales numbers and buyback amount of those Perth Mint silver bars from both Perth Mint and other mints!

The only way to tell the existence and "estimation" of numbers of such bar types remaining is for Perth Mint to have kept a record of the buy back and melt of these bars. This would be a true estimation given the largest % of melted Perth Mint bars obviously would have been re melted by Perth Mint given these bars were not collectable items to begin with.

Diid Perth Mint keep a record? Is anyone privy to that record? or are some just presuming that most silver bars with low manufacture numbers get sold and melted down once they are a certain age?

Look how many stackers are hoarders of silver now! whats changed over the years other than easy access to internet information that maybe true or maybe false.

 

[clear]

smells a little like pump & dump.

Not to crap on those who are paying serious money for old silver, but, it's seriously risky play from an investment point of view.
There are people out there with hordes of old PM silver, and I bet grandchildren waiting for that will to kick in. Does not take big numbers to completely screw premiums in this game, and if you think that's unlikely to happen there is more than 1 member on this forum quietly having a chuckle.


happened before will happen again, time is the only unknown.

I agree why not share and post a pic, you may help to slow down a lot of the pumping and dumping....in this type of bar

I haven't seen the owners in years now. Knew them well enough to suggest they wouldn't sell what they had though.
What I have seen in my life is more than enough to steer clear of this game, take from that what you will, I could be wrong in thinking they'll ever get on the market.

I have absolutely no desire to persuade anyone to believe me, couldn't care less. I just think some people here need to calm down a little and realise scarcity does not equal mintage numbers - not by a long shot.

Thank you I don't disagree, just putting it out, if someone has this style in their collection - maybe they might consider selling.

 

[Golden ChipMunk]

smells a little like pump & dump.

Not to crap on those who are paying serious money for old silver, but, it's seriously risky play from an investment point of view.
There are people out there with hordes of old PM silver, and I bet grandchildren waiting for that will to kick in. Does not take big numbers to completely screw premiums in this game, and if you think that's unlikely to happen there is more than 1 member on this forum quietly having a chuckle.


happened before will happen again, time is the only unknown.

I agree why not share and post a pic, you may help to slow down a lot of the pumping and dumping....in this type of bar

I haven't seen the owners in years now. Knew them well enough to suggest they wouldn't sell what they had though.
What I have seen in my life is more than enough to steer clear of this game, take from that what you will, I could be wrong in thinking they'll ever get on the market.

I have absolutely no desire to persuade anyone to believe me, couldn't care less. I just think some people here need to calm down a little and realise scarcity does not equal mintage numbers - not by a long shot.

What is the point?
Out from topic by far.....

 

[Bigfella]

All this is or could be true.

BUT something is worth what another is willing to pay, no matter what it is.

At the end of the day it does not matter if there are more bars out there as at this point in time you can sell what you want for what someone will pay and this all happens with our own free will and if that upsets you or makes you smile that's fine.

My suggestion would be to sell your rare bars, cash in before the market gets flooded and the price drops, other wise it makes no difference at all. its just white noise.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[fishtaco]

All this is or could be true.

BUT something is worth what another is willing to pay, no matter what it is.

At the end of the day it does not matter if there are more bars out there as at this point in time you can sell what you want for what someone will pay and this all happens with our own free will and if that upsets you or makes you smile that's fine.

My suggestion would be to sell your rare bars, cash in before the market gets flooded and the price drops, other wise it makes no difference at all. its just white noise.

Just my 2 cents.

Only white noise if its not "pump and Dump" which was why the conversation took this avenue for a few posts.

Free will is very often swayed one way or another by suggestions of others especially from those with vested interest so in these instances it "does" matter if there is more of something out there than others profess to be out there.

Logic speaks for itself to some and the reason this thread may contain doubts of such rarity and scarceness of items such as silver bars that were neither scarce nor rare when first introduced.

It has been established that this thread was not a pump and dump and I dont believe it was anything more than want and or admiration from chip that started the thread but its still worth discussing

 

[Gatito Bandito]

Yes they most likely made more than 2 but how many have survived is more to the point.
How many Model T Fords were made??
How Many are still in mint condition today and how much would one be worth over a rusted shell of a Model T.

True for old coins, and true for old bars.


BTW, there are a bunch of varieties of old government-issued coins out there once used/intended for circulation that nobody has any idea how many were originally minted..

And yes, sometimes old coin hoards are found from time to time, too..

 

[fishtaco]

Yes they most likely made more than 2 but how many have survived is more to the point.
How many Model T Fords were made??
How Many are still in mint condition today and how much would one be worth over a rusted shell of a Model T.

True for old coins, and true for old bars.


BTW, there are a bunch of varieties of old government-issued coins out there once used/intended for circulation that nobody has any idea how many were originally minted..

And yes, sometimes old coin hoards are found from time to time, too..

Rubbish! cars even the model T were made to be used they wore out, stopped working,crashed were affected by the elements and were superseded as new models, fashion ,needs and technology moved on,this in no way could be said about Perth Mint silver bars? lol

You cannot compare a usable wearing everyday item or machine to a stored non usable item such as a solid silver bar! lol

Why would each of these variety of Perth Mint silver bars have had almost !00% of there 500-1000 minted numbers put back in a melting pot? and for what good reason? I could understand it if a mint needed to re brand bars as their own but Perth Mint does not need their bars to be re branded.

Most physical PM purchaser in the world wouldn't even discuss their PM acquisitions with family members let alone look up the possibility there may be a collector premium on their silver investment grade bars.

Good on those who like to collect them and can aford to purchase the most expensive offered,I even like them myself! but it does not stand to reason that a silver bar type had almost all its like melted down just to make silver bars of the like? Kilo bars yes to make smaller bars for ease of sale but 1 5 and 10oz bars no way.

 

[Gatito Bandito]

Yep, you're absolutely right..

Everything made from precious metals, including coins, silverware, jewelry, dental-work, electronics, serving sets, cufflinks, and other assorted knickknacks are susceptible to being melted down. Except investment bars. And especially Perth Mint bars, which have always remained in desirable, pristine condition throughout the rest of time, thanks to each & every owner who all have known the true worth of such chunks and stored & cared for them lovingly & accordingly. And the Perth Mint, itself, would never, ever -- past, present or future -- accept any of their own bars to only be then thrown into their refining pots.

 

[fishtaco]

Yep, you're absolutely right..

Everything made from precious metals, including coins, silverware, jewelry, dental-work, electronics, serving sets, cufflinks, and other assorted knickknacks are susceptible to being melted down. Except investment bars. And especially Perth Mint bars, which have always remained in desirable, pristine condition throughout the rest of time, thanks to each & every owner who all have known the true worth of such chunks and stored & cared for them lovingly & accordingly. And the Perth Mint, itself, would never, ever -- past, present or future -- accept any of their own bars to only be then thrown into their refining pots.

You seemed like a well educated level headed guy to me because of your SS input until this statement (end of actually) lol New Members bewhere of rhetoric portrayed as knowledge and truth! LMFAO :lol:

Shown out on real silver knowledge lol :lol: Google Cowboy lol :lol:

 

[Gatito Bandito]

Didn't detect even a hint of sarcasm in my prior post?

Feel free to enlighten me about Perth Mint's procedures, then..


It's my understanding that they purchase all kinds of old stuff from various sources, in a wide range of quantities, per their website.

Items that are way too beat-up & unacceptable to pass off intact elsewhere go where, again? In fact, I've heard they don't pick through as much as they used to, and have melted down some real beauties. And PM is far from the only one guilty of that.


Now about to melt down some old bars. Were they XRF-tested? Ultrasonic? Perth Mint bars are thick -- and only one true way to find out what's in the middle.

And if they're going to put their name & purity on new pieces created from this old material, then yeah, you better believe they're going thru the refining process before they stamp that 999(9) again..



Anyway, bottom line is, there are plenty of unknowns out there about older pieces. Things were not permanently recorded, and each individual item cannot possibly be tracked over the years/decades/centuries. There are even quite a few examples of common government-issued currency from former global super-powers which did not keep records of mintages, or at least of which are no longer available.

So how is one supposed to know not only how many pieces (whether bars or coins) were originally created, but also exactly how many are surviving today, and in what condition?

[As an aside: Yes, some owners abuse their PM possessions, whether knowingly or unknowingly, sometimes right out of the package -- see it happen all the time on popular YouTube channels, for example. Makes me cringe.]

So, those who have the interest & desire gather whatever info & observations they can get, and can only reasonably estimate based on what they do know, which is obviously subject to change, in hopes of determining fairly accurate mintages & ballpark survival rates.


And yes, there's a variety of collectors out there, with a wide range of budgets -- some of whom will pay up for certain pieces. That's their prerogative, their money. I think some are nuts, and have even stated so earlier in this thread. But at the same time, can still respect their decisions, as I understand where they're coming from, so to speak.


As for any potential pumping & dumping? Goes on in every industry; PM's are no exception. But also keep in mind that some people out there have different passions than others, and also to varying degrees. What might look like pumping to one, might actually only be extreme enthusiasm -- or vice versa.

 

[sterling-nz]

I happen to know for fact that Perth stuff gets melted down.
Over here my stuff goes to "my guy" then off to Morris and Watson to get melted down and there has been Perth mint stuff in there from time to time.
It does not serve their business model to resell as this does not get their name out in the world.
Everything from 50% silver NZ threepence to 90% silver Morgan dollars has been sent to M&W , melted and sent back as nice M&W bars

 

[Golden ChipMunk]

Still in search of De' MONA LISA

 

[Aureus]

I agree why not share and post a pic, you may help to slow down a lot of the pumping and dumping....in this type of bar

I haven't seen the owners in years now. Knew them well enough to suggest they wouldn't sell what they had though.
What I have seen in my life is more than enough to steer clear of this game, take from that what you will, I could be wrong in thinking they'll ever get on the market.

I have absolutely no desire to persuade anyone to believe me, couldn't care less. I just think some people here need to calm down a little and realise scarcity does not equal mintage numbers - not by a long shot.

What is the point?
Out from topic by far.....

sorry, just re-reading the thread now.
Personally I'd say it is more on topic than a lesson on Da Vinci, but I digress...sorry.

The reason I posted is because given what I have seen your Da Vinci is nothing more than a amateur painting - a good one though don't get me wrong.
I think that's a very important piece of information to provide the community, particularly now, when premiums on old PM stuff are going stupid. I don't expect anyone to agree or back me up, but know there are members here that know for a fact I'm not spewing BS.
I have nothing against yourself or this thread, far from it, if you can get silly premiums I am happy for you - wish I could do the same.

People buying into old collectable bars (at least PM stuff) are buying into a lie though, I want that to be clear.
Last you'll hear from me in this thread though, not looking to rile you up.

 

[Golden ChipMunk]

I haven't seen the owners in years now. Knew them well enough to suggest they wouldn't sell what they had though.
What I have seen in my life is more than enough to steer clear of this game, take from that what you will, I could be wrong in thinking they'll ever get on the market.

I have absolutely no desire to persuade anyone to believe me, couldn't care less. I just think some people here need to calm down a little and realise scarcity does not equal mintage numbers - not by a long shot.

What is the point?
Out from topic by far.....

sorry, just re-reading the thread now.
Personally I'd say it is more on topic than a lesson on Da Vinci, but I digress...sorry.

The reason I posted is because given what I have seen your Da Vinci is nothing more than a amateur painting - a good one though don't get me wrong.
I think that's a very important piece of information to provide the community, particularly now, when premiums on old PM stuff are going stupid. I don't expect anyone to agree or back me up, but know there are members here that know for a fact I'm not spewing BS.
I have nothing against yourself or this thread, far from it, if you can get silly premiums I am happy for you - wish I could do the same.

People buying into old collectable bars (at least PM stuff) are buying into a lie though, I want that to be clear.
Last you'll hear from me in this thread though, not looking to rile you up.

Trying to put my collection together.
A missing puzzle I guess!!!