ShinyStuff
New Member
As boring as I am... I believe we should "Give to Cesear what belongs to Cesear." That way I can sleep at night.
Tax on silver?
- Thread starter Doco
- Start date
goldpelican said:Keep talking about tax avoidance on a public forum, the ATO's web crawlers haven't found us yet...
It's funny reading that considering i'm at work now...
Best advice, go speak to a Tax Agent about the issue! If you've got enough $ to buy 12kg of Silver, you should be able to pay for a consult with a descent Tax Agent!
If you get caught out, it can be costly lads!
Yippe-Ki-Ya
New Member
opti said:
stop using my pic numnutz!
grinners said:
Agreed. The people here who do the right thing don't need threads like this going on.
Guys,
Sorry if i created any un-due worry or concern. There is no need to delete the thread. All i can suggest is contact a good accountant if you are concerned about the possible tax implications. The only thing is you really don't want to get caught out doing the wrong thing.
Best of luck, and keep stacking!
Sorry if i created any un-due worry or concern. There is no need to delete the thread. All i can suggest is contact a good accountant if you are concerned about the possible tax implications. The only thing is you really don't want to get caught out doing the wrong thing.
Best of luck, and keep stacking!
Yes, please... common sense
Systems are to be used, not abused...
Do your own due diligence and weigh-up your responsibilities.
Systems are to be used, not abused...
Do your own due diligence and weigh-up your responsibilities.
Yippe-Ki-Ya
New Member
opti said:/italian accent - But how do i dodga da tax!?!?!!Yippe-Ki-Ya said:opti said:
stop using my pic numnutz!
:lol:
seriously though - it's all fine and well to joke around here, but we're all law abiding citizens who do the right thing, so come on guys - no more talk about tax evasion - even if it is in jest!
i dont like the system either, but let's just keep it all above board from now on - we dont want unwanted attention brought to this forum and its members...
SAVVVIE??
Glad I ain't a tyrant, we all know how that worked out for Caligula! Make sure you all look in to "your obligations" and figure out the who's whats and wheres when it comes to selling! As for advice on the ulterior side of things, I'm on the wrong team for that one!Yippe-Ki-Ya said:opti said:/italian accent - But how do i dodga da tax!?!?!!Yippe-Ki-Ya said:stop using my pic numnutz!
:lol:
seriously though - it's all fine and well to joke around here, but we're all law abiding citizens who do the right thing, so come on guys - no more talk about tax evasion - even if it is in jest!
i dont like the system either, but let's just keep it all above board from now on - we dont want unwanted attention brought to this forum and its members...
SAVVVIE??
I'll leave it with, don't pay a god dam cent more than you need to!
You should not pay tax on gold or silver (possibly platinum, not sure). Get better tax advice if need be. I plan on not paying a single cent.
Gold and silver are a currency. I don't know about you, but I'm saving up for a farm in gold and silver. I chose that currency as it is not subject to inflation(it also pay no interest). Gold and silver are simple physical objects which increase in value at a rate equal to the money supply expansion they are denominated in. Therefore, gold and silver do not make money, they merely track the decline in value of fiat currency. For example, when this country had a gold standard, the value of a gold coin did not float. Today, the value of fiat is -floating against gold-. Over time gold takes more dollars to buy as more currency units exist. This is not speculation, this is merely holding value. $200 for gold in the 80's vs $1700 today did not happen because due to macro events or multi decade long shortages. Only decline in value of fiat (inflation) has done this.
The Australian constitution references gold and silver as money in the payment of debt. Section 115
http://australianpolitics.com/constitution-aus/text/chapter-5-the-states
Lastly, the commissioner of taxation made a ruling on using gold as an inflationary hedge in this case:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/s...5.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=bookmaker gold
The owner of the gold did not pay tax, as the intent of the purchase of the gold was to retain value.
if you trade gold, back and forth moving in and out of the price you are a trader, and by law should pay tax. If you buy coins and expect that someone will want more for it than you do, then you should probably pay tax as you are trading. If you just buy gold and silver and hold it, in particular if you buy monthly when your money arrives and don't try to pick the market dips then you are clearly NOT trading, and can show no intent. (ON the subject of intent, study closely the difference between tax treatment of a trader, vs investor, there really is a difference, even in shares).
The very fact that since this case, nobody has tested the legislation, and that no advisories have been cited indicating specifically that gold and silver -are- covered by capital gains tax gives me a good feeling about the standing of this stance.
If you are buying silver so you can 'go to the moon', or gold so you can r0x0r teh $$$, then by all means pay tax as you should as you are clearly speculating on price increases. However, for some of us, we hold metals because it is constitutionally defined as money. I personally see no more reason to pay capital gains on legal tender conversion between AUD and Gold\Silver than I would in swapping a $20 note for 20 x $1 coins. All are legal tender. No capital gains in -either- case, because gold is money( not capital http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_(economics) ), and since gold merely tracks inflation(over a longer timeframe) it does not gain.
No 'Capital' 'Gain', in particular because over the longer term, the value of 1tr oz compared to good and services remains relatively stable. The Old 1900 analogy of a "ever since the late Middle Ages, a man could always be properly dressed for the value of one ounce of gold". Today, a well dressed man in fine shoes, shirt, tie and tailored suit for $1700 is probably about right. No more buying power = no capital gain.
In fact, even the Australian government doesn't consider gold either as a good or services under GST legislation. This is nothing new, gold and silver have a 5000 year history of monetisation that will be difficult to disprove. As a British colony that commenced existence with British pounds is worth nothing the significance of the word 'pound', which was the pegging of the value of the pound note to a troy pound of silver. It's not called a pound sterling for nothing. Further reading here http://au.advfn.com/currencies/gbp/about/BritishPound.html . I mention this to highlight the lineage of monetary metals.
NOTE : I'm not your tax counsellor, I'm just an IT guy who reads a lot, and wants an olive grove in the hunter valley without having to weave through high interest accounts trying to track inflation.
Best of luck, and if anyone knows more than I do, please append.
Gold and silver are a currency. I don't know about you, but I'm saving up for a farm in gold and silver. I chose that currency as it is not subject to inflation(it also pay no interest). Gold and silver are simple physical objects which increase in value at a rate equal to the money supply expansion they are denominated in. Therefore, gold and silver do not make money, they merely track the decline in value of fiat currency. For example, when this country had a gold standard, the value of a gold coin did not float. Today, the value of fiat is -floating against gold-. Over time gold takes more dollars to buy as more currency units exist. This is not speculation, this is merely holding value. $200 for gold in the 80's vs $1700 today did not happen because due to macro events or multi decade long shortages. Only decline in value of fiat (inflation) has done this.
The Australian constitution references gold and silver as money in the payment of debt. Section 115
http://australianpolitics.com/constitution-aus/text/chapter-5-the-states
Lastly, the commissioner of taxation made a ruling on using gold as an inflationary hedge in this case:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/s...5.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=bookmaker gold
The owner of the gold did not pay tax, as the intent of the purchase of the gold was to retain value.
if you trade gold, back and forth moving in and out of the price you are a trader, and by law should pay tax. If you buy coins and expect that someone will want more for it than you do, then you should probably pay tax as you are trading. If you just buy gold and silver and hold it, in particular if you buy monthly when your money arrives and don't try to pick the market dips then you are clearly NOT trading, and can show no intent. (ON the subject of intent, study closely the difference between tax treatment of a trader, vs investor, there really is a difference, even in shares).
The very fact that since this case, nobody has tested the legislation, and that no advisories have been cited indicating specifically that gold and silver -are- covered by capital gains tax gives me a good feeling about the standing of this stance.
If you are buying silver so you can 'go to the moon', or gold so you can r0x0r teh $$$, then by all means pay tax as you should as you are clearly speculating on price increases. However, for some of us, we hold metals because it is constitutionally defined as money. I personally see no more reason to pay capital gains on legal tender conversion between AUD and Gold\Silver than I would in swapping a $20 note for 20 x $1 coins. All are legal tender. No capital gains in -either- case, because gold is money( not capital http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_(economics) ), and since gold merely tracks inflation(over a longer timeframe) it does not gain.
No 'Capital' 'Gain', in particular because over the longer term, the value of 1tr oz compared to good and services remains relatively stable. The Old 1900 analogy of a "ever since the late Middle Ages, a man could always be properly dressed for the value of one ounce of gold". Today, a well dressed man in fine shoes, shirt, tie and tailored suit for $1700 is probably about right. No more buying power = no capital gain.
In fact, even the Australian government doesn't consider gold either as a good or services under GST legislation. This is nothing new, gold and silver have a 5000 year history of monetisation that will be difficult to disprove. As a British colony that commenced existence with British pounds is worth nothing the significance of the word 'pound', which was the pegging of the value of the pound note to a troy pound of silver. It's not called a pound sterling for nothing. Further reading here http://au.advfn.com/currencies/gbp/about/BritishPound.html . I mention this to highlight the lineage of monetary metals.
NOTE : I'm not your tax counsellor, I'm just an IT guy who reads a lot, and wants an olive grove in the hunter valley without having to weave through high interest accounts trying to track inflation.
Best of luck, and if anyone knows more than I do, please append.
Dirtbikepilot
Active Member
gimpy said:You should not pay tax on gold or silver (possibly platinum, not sure). Getter better tax advice if need be. I plan on not paying a single cent.
Gold and silver are a currency. I don't know about you, but I'm saving up for a farm in gold and silver. I chose that currency as it is not subject to inflation. Gold and silver are simple physical objects which increase in value at an inverse rate to the money supply they are denominated in. Therefore, gold and silver do not make money, they merely track the decline in value of fiat currency. For example, when this country had a gold standard, the value of a gold coin did not float. Today, the value of fiat is -floating against gold-. Over time gold takes more dollars to buy as more of them exist. This is not speculation, this is merely holding value.
Also the Australian constitution references gold and silver as money in the payment of debt. Section 115
http://australianpolitics.com/constitution-aus/text/chapter-5-the-states
Lastly, the commissioner of taxation made a ruling on using gold as an inflationary hedge in this case:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/s...5.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=bookmaker gold
The owner of the gold did not pay tax, as the intent of the purchase of the gold was to retain value.
if you trade gold, back and forth moving in and out of the price you are a trader, IMHO and should pay tax. If you buy coins and expect that someone will want more for it than you do, then you should probably pay tax as you are trading. If you just buy gold and silver and hold it, in particular if you buy monthly when your money arrives and don't try to pick the market dips then you are clearly NOT trading, and can show no intent. (ON the subject of intent, study closely the difference between tax treatment of a trader, vs investor, there really is a difference, even in shares).
The very fact that since this case, nobody has tested the legislation, and that no advisories have been cited indicating specifically that gold and silver -are- covered by capital gains tax gives me a good feeling about the standing of this stance.
If you are buying silver so you can 'go to the moon', or gold so you can r0x0r teh $$$, then by all means pay tax as you should as you are clearly speculating on price increases. However, for some of us, we hold metals because it is constitutionally defined as money. I personally see no more reason to pay capital gains on legal tender conversion between AUD and Gold\Silver than I would in swapping a $20 note for 20 x $1 coins. All are legal tender.
NOTE : I'm not your tax counsellor, I'm just an IT guy who reads a lot, and wants an olive grove in the hunter valley.
Best of luck, and if anyone know more than I do, please append.
I live in the Hunter Valley and have a mate who had an olive grove for sale, or at least it was last time we spoke.
Don't know if he will take silver for payment, but I will for my commission.
Looking at prices of the properties there (Jurds) I've got a few years ahead of me. Something tells me I'll be starting my orchard with hundreds of holes in the ground . Perhaps we need a good old RE bubble popping first. Guys I just want to make it clear that I'm NOT an expert, but I am optimistic.
Recon
New Member
My post essentially said, if you have $10,000 in AUD and trade it for $10,500 USD and time passes and the AUD drops to US$0.60 for some reason, then you trade back for AUD and get $17,500, do you owe capital gains tax on the $7500 increase? Surely not.
This is essentially the same thing that happens with gold. You trade AUD for gold, time passes, AUD drops relative to gold, you trade gold for AUD so you can buy stuff. Why on earth would you be taxed for this?
This is essentially the same thing that happens with gold. You trade AUD for gold, time passes, AUD drops relative to gold, you trade gold for AUD so you can buy stuff. Why on earth would you be taxed for this?
Yippe-Ki-Ya
New Member
Recon said:
Well it's no secret really but capital gains tax on gold or silver is merely a ploy by government to steal the private wealth of those citizens who are smart enough to protect themselves from the brazen theft of inflation (money printing) by converting their currency to bullion. Governments dont want smart people to be able to protect themselves from the inflation tax and therefore CGT was invented to still steal a sizeable portion of that which would have been stolen through inflation had the currency simply been left as currency.
eg. Somebody has $35 in 1933 and decides to purchase 1 troy ounce of gold to protect himself from the thieving bankers and government.
That same person (very old now) still has that 1 ounce of gold but decides to sell it now to help make ends meet. He gets the current market value of say $1735 for it.
The thieving government then expects him to pay CGT on the "profit" which according to their fleabrains is $1700.
If the percentage tax rate on CGT happens to be say 30% then he would have to pay 30% of $1700 to the thieving government - which is $510. In effect - the government has successfully stolen a full 30% of his asset because of course there is no real "capital gain" since no value has been added to his asset. It is STILL 1 troye ounce of gold - which will still buy him a nice suite and nice pair of shoes - much like it did in 1933, and much like it did in 1833 ...
As this illustrates - CGT on bullion is blatant theft - nothing more nothing less,
Somebody actively trading with bullion - well that's a different kettle of fish altogether! but any short term profits would then simply be treated as income.
gimpy said:
I think this needs to be retested though, as it predates capital gains tax legislation.
ReturnToZero
New Member
Yippe-Ki-Ya said:
Now you're just nitpicking. CGT applies to everything that has a capital gain, including investment properties, interest in your bank account and stocks.
The government didn't put CGT in place just to spite "those smart enough to protect themselves", it's just them taxing everything that has a capital gain.
The same 30% example you showed just then applies to everything else. You buy an investment property for 70k and sell for 700k, you'll lose a lot. You buy a stock for 2c and it runs to $2, you lose a lot. You are just taking what's convenient and making a story out of it.