Taking pm on a a domestic flight
- Thread starter xag
- Start date
Cimexus said:
I'd like to clarify what "cash or equivalent' means. Gold is officially a precious metal (according to Bernanke)
Ron Paul: "Do you think gold is money?"
Ben Bernanke: "No. It's a precious metal."
So if I had a $10000 Rolex would that be classed as 'equivalent' to $10000 cash and have to be declared?
Domestically, I don't see any issues in Australia transporting your shiny stuff in carry-on - they may want to eyeball it but legally you are entitled to carry it with you. JUST DON'T TAKE YOUR EYES OFF IT !!. Security guards can have sticky fingers.
As for overseas travel that is a bit trickier. PM's are generally regarded as negotiable monetary instruments . I don't think it's a case of you not being allowed to take it in or out but you certainly are compelled to report it if the cash worth of the instrument is 10K or more (they don't want you funding ''all dem Al Qaedas and 'Triads'. Certainly the US make a big fuss of it.
Internally in the IS I've heard of the TSA taking keen interest in people carrying PMs in quantity, especially silver so the domestic travel situation there is a whole other ball of wax. Personally never had issues with these folks (I don't wander around with PMs) but have heard plenty of horror stories of people being dragged aside and quizzed over a quantity of silver in their carry-on.
As for overseas travel that is a bit trickier. PM's are generally regarded as negotiable monetary instruments . I don't think it's a case of you not being allowed to take it in or out but you certainly are compelled to report it if the cash worth of the instrument is 10K or more (they don't want you funding ''all dem Al Qaedas and 'Triads'. Certainly the US make a big fuss of it.
Internally in the IS I've heard of the TSA taking keen interest in people carrying PMs in quantity, especially silver so the domestic travel situation there is a whole other ball of wax. Personally never had issues with these folks (I don't wander around with PMs) but have heard plenty of horror stories of people being dragged aside and quizzed over a quantity of silver in their carry-on.
from my personal experience rolls of coins in carry bags are the best. Siimply take out of carry bag put in open plastic bin and run in xray. i have travelled worrldwide like this and many times they are picked up and without opening the sealed transparrent like tube you are asked what is this. clearly state they are collector or commemerative coins purchased for your personal collection. I have also added would you like me to open the protective seal on these? never have i been asked to open and never asked for value. just make sure and put them in plain view and not hide in carry bag. i would not suggest more than 5 rolls of 20 or 100 at a time.
Cimexus said:
to add to this. there are gold commemorative series coin medals available for purchase that are available that do not show weight, do not state the word gold on them and do not have ribs. coins are the same size as krugerrands and 24k
Some basic research on coins from with two specific examples from 1980 and 1981
Some basic research on coins from with two specific examples from 1980 and 1981
MetalMensch said:
I've flown domestically within the US carrying silver - the reason they make a fuss is because it shows up as solid on x-ray machines, they can't screen carry-on properly as it obscures anything behind it. So bags need to have silver removed and be rescreened without the silver.
Exactly the same in Australia.
Nothing to do with "hey citizen, how come you aren't using FRNs instead" type conspiracy stuff. Have flown a lot in the US since the TSA was created - most problems people have with them are of their own making. Argue with a low paid guy with a gun that his search is unreasonable and against your rights and you're not going to have a smooth day.
Just thought stackers would like to know - I've emigrated to the US this week. Not just a visit but the whole shebang, including moving the contents of our whole house etc.
The moving company flat out will NOT take precious metals in the main household goods shipment (which is via a shipping container/surface shipping). And even if they did, you wouldn't want to do that, because the moving insurance won't cover them. So you have to take them on your person (carry on baggage) when you physically fly to your destination. Jewelry is treated exactly the same - can't ship it, have to take it with you in person.
Stackers will be pleased to note that I didn't experience any problems at all carrying over $10k worth of bullion from Australia to the US (it's about half gold, half silver, by value). Didn't have any problems at any of the following places:
- Security, Canberra Airport
- Departing Customs/Immigration, Sydney Airport
- Arriving Customs/Immigration, San Francisco Airport
- Security/TSA, San Francisco Airport
- Security/TSA, Chicago O'Hare Airport
I carried the PMs in a separate carry-on bag (nothing else in them except bullion, for easier scanning). No-one asked about the bag or even seemed to raise an eyebrow at it, despite the fact it would have lit up like a Christmas tree on the X-ray.
The moving company flat out will NOT take precious metals in the main household goods shipment (which is via a shipping container/surface shipping). And even if they did, you wouldn't want to do that, because the moving insurance won't cover them. So you have to take them on your person (carry on baggage) when you physically fly to your destination. Jewelry is treated exactly the same - can't ship it, have to take it with you in person.
Stackers will be pleased to note that I didn't experience any problems at all carrying over $10k worth of bullion from Australia to the US (it's about half gold, half silver, by value). Didn't have any problems at any of the following places:
- Security, Canberra Airport
- Departing Customs/Immigration, Sydney Airport
- Arriving Customs/Immigration, San Francisco Airport
- Security/TSA, San Francisco Airport
- Security/TSA, Chicago O'Hare Airport
I carried the PMs in a separate carry-on bag (nothing else in them except bullion, for easier scanning). No-one asked about the bag or even seemed to raise an eyebrow at it, despite the fact it would have lit up like a Christmas tree on the X-ray.
Agreed that gold coins would be the way to go from a weight and portability perspective - shoved in a regular wallet (or five) they'd just look like normal coins so wouldn't attract attention from security either.
Still, it was still a smooth run for me, despite having a good amount of bulky silver in there too (including bars).
Still, it was still a smooth run for me, despite having a good amount of bulky silver in there too (including bars).
pro$pector
New Member
I've travelled both domestic and international with my whole 7kg carry on luggage as 1kg silver bars a few times and never been questioned once.
True story.
True story.
Photonaware
Active Member
The airlines are only interested in security threats.
If you are carrying tubes of metal disks - which is what they will look like, then they may be inquisitive.
Could you be a terrorist with concealed explosives ?
Best to carry a printed page showing the coins with their full descriptions.
Travelling Internationally is a different scenario.
Are you a money launderer ?
Why are you carrying PMs ?
Maybe this is drug money ?
What is your job and how much per month do you earn ?
Did you pay your taxes ?
Maybe you will miss your flight if you refuse to answer all these questions.
I saw this on TV recently in a Homleland security / Customs documentary.
If you are carrying tubes of metal disks - which is what they will look like, then they may be inquisitive.
Could you be a terrorist with concealed explosives ?
Best to carry a printed page showing the coins with their full descriptions.
Travelling Internationally is a different scenario.
Are you a money launderer ?
Why are you carrying PMs ?
Maybe this is drug money ?
What is your job and how much per month do you earn ?
Did you pay your taxes ?
Maybe you will miss your flight if you refuse to answer all these questions.
I saw this on TV recently in a Homleland security / Customs documentary.
Stick Framer
New Member
Wonder how you would go with some of the NWTM bullet bullion in you carry on?
bricklayer
New Member
For international flights, here's some information straight from the horse's mouth.
First source: http://customs.gov.au/faq/ProhibitedRestrictedGoods.asp#Q76:
Things of note:
1. The question is headed 'bring into or take out of'.
2. Following on from Bron's post, the only mention of exporting is 'If you have gold coins or other coins that are still used as currency, you can bring into or take out of Australia as much as you like, duty and Goods and Services Tax (GST) free. However, you must declare the coins to the Australian Customs and Border Protection Service if the value of the currency is ten thousand Australian dollars or more ($10,000), or the equivalent in foreign currency.' This is clearly about coins as (current) currency; not PMs.
3. There are no other restrictions listed about exporting PMs.
Second source: PMs are not listed on the Australian Customs and Border Protection's list of prohibited and restricted exports: http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page4381.asp
Third source: the ACBPs page on 'Currency' - http://www.customs.gov.au/faq/Currency.asp - only refers to currency, money, monetary instruments, and travellers' cheques, but does not define these.
Fourth source: The ACBPs 'Departing travellers' page defines 'Currency' thus:
There is no mention of PMs on this page at all.
I hope that's of some help!
First source: http://customs.gov.au/faq/ProhibitedRestrictedGoods.asp#Q76:
Things of note:
1. The question is headed 'bring into or take out of'.
2. Following on from Bron's post, the only mention of exporting is 'If you have gold coins or other coins that are still used as currency, you can bring into or take out of Australia as much as you like, duty and Goods and Services Tax (GST) free. However, you must declare the coins to the Australian Customs and Border Protection Service if the value of the currency is ten thousand Australian dollars or more ($10,000), or the equivalent in foreign currency.' This is clearly about coins as (current) currency; not PMs.
3. There are no other restrictions listed about exporting PMs.
Second source: PMs are not listed on the Australian Customs and Border Protection's list of prohibited and restricted exports: http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page4381.asp
Third source: the ACBPs page on 'Currency' - http://www.customs.gov.au/faq/Currency.asp - only refers to currency, money, monetary instruments, and travellers' cheques, but does not define these.
Fourth source: The ACBPs 'Departing travellers' page defines 'Currency' thus:
There is no mention of PMs on this page at all.
I hope that's of some help!
bricklayer
New Member
One thing of note, though:
This situation may have changed since Bron's post - a quick search for 'gold' on the AUSTRAC site shows this section from their e-learning module about using gold for asset conversion:
Source: http://www.austrac.gov.au/elearning/mod2/mod_2_placement_13.html
So Bron's final suggestion could be worthwhile:
***Edited to add:
And gold bullion is the first listed item in the 'Typologies and vulnerabilities' section of the AUSTRAC case studies and typologies report 2013(http://www.austrac.gov.au/files/typ13_full.pdf), with three pages devoted to it. Money laundering via gold is listed as case studies in the 2008 and 2010 AUSTRAC case study reports.
The following could be cause for pause:
While I understand how this would be used for tracking potential criminal activity, it's also interesting how many of these would fit with common actions of legitimate purchasers - having a 'wake up' moment about the shortcomings of fiat currency systems and converting savings into PMs in a short period of time, having some concerns about sovereign debt levels, converting a large one-off source of income (contract job, gift, inheritance, whatever), into PMs, or giving PMs to family members.
bron suchecki said:
This situation may have changed since Bron's post - a quick search for 'gold' on the AUSTRAC site shows this section from their e-learning module about using gold for asset conversion:
Source: http://www.austrac.gov.au/elearning/mod2/mod_2_placement_13.html
So Bron's final suggestion could be worthwhile:
bron suchecki said:
***Edited to add:
And gold bullion is the first listed item in the 'Typologies and vulnerabilities' section of the AUSTRAC case studies and typologies report 2013(http://www.austrac.gov.au/files/typ13_full.pdf), with three pages devoted to it. Money laundering via gold is listed as case studies in the 2008 and 2010 AUSTRAC case study reports.
The following could be cause for pause:
While I understand how this would be used for tracking potential criminal activity, it's also interesting how many of these would fit with common actions of legitimate purchasers - having a 'wake up' moment about the shortcomings of fiat currency systems and converting savings into PMs in a short period of time, having some concerns about sovereign debt levels, converting a large one-off source of income (contract job, gift, inheritance, whatever), into PMs, or giving PMs to family members.
bricklayer
New Member
Because it's relevant to this thread:
Just found a link to a book called 'Getting Your Gold Out of Dodge: A Complete Resource on Internationalizing Your Precious Metals'.
Initially found the info on this page 'Transporting Gold Coins or Bullion Overseas', which has a contents list: http://www.investing-in-precious-metals.com/transporting-gold.html
The book's website is here: http://goldoutofdodge.com/
While it was written in the US, it apparently has a chapter called 'Transporting in and out of Australia'.
Quick Google shows a brief announcement at GATA: http://gata.org/node/11267
And a recommendation from David Morgan, along with a discount code (which doesn't appear to be working at the moment): http://www.silver-investor.com/blog/silver-market-update/getting-your-gold-out-of-dodge/
Lots of guff to wade through on that site, and no idea if the book is any good ... does anyone here have it? Reviews?
Just found a link to a book called 'Getting Your Gold Out of Dodge: A Complete Resource on Internationalizing Your Precious Metals'.
Initially found the info on this page 'Transporting Gold Coins or Bullion Overseas', which has a contents list: http://www.investing-in-precious-metals.com/transporting-gold.html
The book's website is here: http://goldoutofdodge.com/
While it was written in the US, it apparently has a chapter called 'Transporting in and out of Australia'.
Quick Google shows a brief announcement at GATA: http://gata.org/node/11267
And a recommendation from David Morgan, along with a discount code (which doesn't appear to be working at the moment): http://www.silver-investor.com/blog/silver-market-update/getting-your-gold-out-of-dodge/
Lots of guff to wade through on that site, and no idea if the book is any good ... does anyone here have it? Reviews?
bricklayer
New Member
Update based on a recent experience (note that this was an Australian international airport):
Phoned Customs in advance, who said it's none of their concern, that gold and silver can be taken out without any limitations (as in other threads here), but to call the relevant airport and ask their advice.
Phoned the airport's screening and security section, and the person I spoke with who checked with a superior; answer was to request a private screening at the main entrance to the security section, and not to go through with everyone else.
Got to airport, person at main entrance had no idea what I was talking about, so took me down to the scanners, and told general staff (in front of all other travellers) that I'd asked for a private screening.
General staff clearly also had no idea what to do, and looked around helplessly for a bit. Another staffer in their lane noticed me waiting, and (again in front of the other travellers) yelled out 'What do you want?', drawing more attention. I tried to indicate that the other staff were attending to me, but not good enough for boofhead: 'Nah mate, what do you want?' He kept shouting this out until I finally had to say, more loudly than I should have had to, that I'd asked for a private screening ... eventually, the security Team Leader came over who had a better sense of customer service ... but ended up telling me the best way was just to go through the usual screening process with everyone else, and then only request a private screening if anything turns up. He seemed familiar with PMs going through the x-ray, and said that coins and bars are not an issue.
I had a few rolls of silver ounces - showed up on the x-ray as clear as day to anyone who knew what they were looking at, so no privacy or safety there!
And then the couple of ounces of gold that a couple of posters had suggested might sail on through showed as large black lumps ... so boofhead started rifling through my stuff to get to them, before he asked permission to do this.
All said and done, the key lessons were:
1. Don't rely on the main 'traffic controller' knowing what to do.
2. Don't rely on the general security staff, as they may not know either.
3. Rolls of coins, especially if neatly separated by Air-Tites, when x-rayed look like ... rolls of coins. This is not private or secure.
4. So ... if you want to draw the least attention, just go through with everyone else and ask for a private screening if there's an issue - unless you're worried about other travellers ID'ing your stack from the x-ray screen (probably more of an issue with rolls of larger coins than anything else). It may be possible to get a private screening straight off the bat, but you have to find someone who knows what they're doing (perhaps the Team Leader) - and get to them without anyone else drawing attention ... it's a gamble either way.
4. As has been posted many times here, PMs don't interest security staff, just dangerous objects.
Phoned Customs in advance, who said it's none of their concern, that gold and silver can be taken out without any limitations (as in other threads here), but to call the relevant airport and ask their advice.
Phoned the airport's screening and security section, and the person I spoke with who checked with a superior; answer was to request a private screening at the main entrance to the security section, and not to go through with everyone else.
Got to airport, person at main entrance had no idea what I was talking about, so took me down to the scanners, and told general staff (in front of all other travellers) that I'd asked for a private screening.
General staff clearly also had no idea what to do, and looked around helplessly for a bit. Another staffer in their lane noticed me waiting, and (again in front of the other travellers) yelled out 'What do you want?', drawing more attention. I tried to indicate that the other staff were attending to me, but not good enough for boofhead: 'Nah mate, what do you want?' He kept shouting this out until I finally had to say, more loudly than I should have had to, that I'd asked for a private screening ... eventually, the security Team Leader came over who had a better sense of customer service ... but ended up telling me the best way was just to go through the usual screening process with everyone else, and then only request a private screening if anything turns up. He seemed familiar with PMs going through the x-ray, and said that coins and bars are not an issue.
I had a few rolls of silver ounces - showed up on the x-ray as clear as day to anyone who knew what they were looking at, so no privacy or safety there!
And then the couple of ounces of gold that a couple of posters had suggested might sail on through showed as large black lumps ... so boofhead started rifling through my stuff to get to them, before he asked permission to do this.
All said and done, the key lessons were:
1. Don't rely on the main 'traffic controller' knowing what to do.
2. Don't rely on the general security staff, as they may not know either.
3. Rolls of coins, especially if neatly separated by Air-Tites, when x-rayed look like ... rolls of coins. This is not private or secure.
4. So ... if you want to draw the least attention, just go through with everyone else and ask for a private screening if there's an issue - unless you're worried about other travellers ID'ing your stack from the x-ray screen (probably more of an issue with rolls of larger coins than anything else). It may be possible to get a private screening straight off the bat, but you have to find someone who knows what they're doing (perhaps the Team Leader) - and get to them without anyone else drawing attention ... it's a gamble either way.
4. As has been posted many times here, PMs don't interest security staff, just dangerous objects.