Suckering Suckertash
New Member
How do these bezels work? Are you supposed to hammer the bar of coin into the bezel? I'm trying to comprehend how a bar or coin will firmly sit inside a bezel.
Starting to collect gold
- Thread starter Silvered
- Start date
Suckering Suckertash said:
Only reason to buy a bezel is to covert one into jewellery - which presumably results in the coin being polished at some point in its life and reduced to scrap value. Certainly not something I would even consider except as a one-off, and then with either an incredibly common date, or a coin that was already low grade.
Syd888
Member
grinners said:
I don't know. And nobody knows for sure. That's the problem. He may say that he'll buy only 55 of them but not 70. And if you want to sell 70, then you have to settle for smaller price or whatever. Smaller coins are ideal for everyday trading/swapping. But if the intent is to keep it for many years, then I'd like to have at least 1oz and up.
As others said already, it all depends on your selling strategy. When you make an investment for very long term, then most likely you or your children will use it for something big, not for groceries. And then bigger bullions make sense.
Dogmatix
Active Member
Syd888 said:
Except for premiums and XRF checking bulk coins, this make zero sense.
Fractional wins nearly every time. It is the same weight, just more divisible.
(Although if you want to get into the nitty-gritty there are a couple of reasons to have less fractional stuff, but not for typical investment).
Sargeant Argent
New Member
No offence intendedn but I think you're wrong syd. Buying low premium fractionals on dips will give you a lower cost average and enables to sell small bits of your stack on highs. Anything larger than 1 oz reduces the size of you market to sell to. I wouldn't be comfortable selling a 5 or 10 oz gold bar in a private sale. A dealer would probably prefer and pay better for 5 oz.s in fractionals over a 5 oz bar. It makes it easier for them to resell and make profits.
Don't forget there is the possibility of gold going parabolic which will make 5 oz unaffordable to the general public. I may be wrong but my opinion is to not stack larger than 1 oz gold coins/bars I will however make an exception for mexican 50 pesos!
Don't forget there is the possibility of gold going parabolic which will make 5 oz unaffordable to the general public. I may be wrong but my opinion is to not stack larger than 1 oz gold coins/bars I will however make an exception for mexican 50 pesos!
Syd888
Member
Well, my problem with fractionals is that there is rarely low premium on them. At the same time, definition of fractionals is quite subjective. Ask ABC next time how many 1kg bars they sell every week. So, apparently there is market for bigger bullions. I agree 100% that small coins/bullions are very handy for regular sells and swaps. But suppose you don't plan any sells for the next 10 years. Or you keep it for your children for even longer periods. I'd like to have premiums as low as possible. If I were rich I'd buy 1kg bars or even 400oz bars - stack and forget about it. But I'm not rich, so 1oz is my unit.
Now, if gold goes parabolic, then I don't want to keep it. Most likely I'll swap (sell) it for something else like real estate or some other asset whichever will be undervalued then. So, selling one 5oz bullion or 50 golden sim cards of 1/10oz won't make much difference I think.
ETA: Just look at this guy. Wouldn't you like to have a smile like this?
Now, if gold goes parabolic, then I don't want to keep it. Most likely I'll swap (sell) it for something else like real estate or some other asset whichever will be undervalued then. So, selling one 5oz bullion or 50 golden sim cards of 1/10oz won't make much difference I think.
ETA: Just look at this guy. Wouldn't you like to have a smile like this?
Sargeant Argent
New Member
Yeah you can move kilo bars easy if you're in that league. I'm just a humble paycheck stacker. 5 and 10 gram certicards have a lower premium than 1/10 and and 1/4 oz coins so they're my current favorite gold to stack. If I could afford to buy 1 oz I would.
Syd888
Member
Sargeant Argent said:
Alas, me, too. Usually I save for some time, then I buy 1oz bar when I have enough.
Probably instead of eking out paychecks in the office, I need to write a book about how important buying gold is. Then I would be rich. And sexy TV presenters would invite me to their programs for interviews...
:/
Syd888 said:Well, my problem with fractionals is that there is rarely low premium on them. At the same time, definition of fractionals is quite subjective. Ask ABC next time how many 1kg bars they sell every week. So, apparently there is market for bigger bullions. I agree 100% that small coins/bullions are very handy for regular sells and swaps. But suppose you don't plan any sells for the next 10 years. Or you keep it for your children for even longer periods. I'd like to have premiums as low as possible. If I were rich I'd buy 1kg bars or even 400oz bars - stack and forget about it. But I'm not rich, so 1oz is my unit.
Now, if gold goes parabolic, then I don't want to keep it. Most likely I'll swap (sell) it for something else like real estate or some other asset whichever will be undervalued then. So, selling one 5oz bullion or 50 golden sim cards of 1/10oz won't make much difference I think.
ETA: Just look at this guy. Wouldn't you like to have a smile like this?
http://www.rapidtrends.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/alex-400oz-good-delivery3.jpg
Come on admit it ,that's you in the picture
Anyone stacking gold - even if they label themselves as a "humble paycheck stacker" is soooo far ahead of the game being played by most mass-brainwashed numpties that you can be proud of the habit you have acquired (preferably from an early age!) and hold your head up high.
Fractionals or not - it's the multiplier you are after - if a fractional has a higher ratio-to-spot now, then that will simply hold up when it comes to re-sale - that's the nature of commerce. IMO this is only for fractionals that are a pure bullion play. I know nothing about numismatics, even though I find them interesting, but these would be more like artworks - hide them away in times of trouble, sell them when all the monkeys are patting themselves on the back.
One day, I'll be that guy in the picture there (only way more handsome and younger looking ... and with hair. Oh ... and a LOT more gold than that pishy flimsy piece of foil) ...
Fractionals or not - it's the multiplier you are after - if a fractional has a higher ratio-to-spot now, then that will simply hold up when it comes to re-sale - that's the nature of commerce. IMO this is only for fractionals that are a pure bullion play. I know nothing about numismatics, even though I find them interesting, but these would be more like artworks - hide them away in times of trouble, sell them when all the monkeys are patting themselves on the back.
One day, I'll be that guy in the picture there (only way more handsome and younger looking ... and with hair. Oh ... and a LOT more gold than that pishy flimsy piece of foil) ...
Macros_The_Black said:Anyone stacking gold - even if they label themselves as a "humble paycheck stacker" is soooo far ahead of the game being played by most mass-brainwashed numpties that you can be proud of the habit you have acquired (preferably from an early age!) and hold your head up high.
Fractionals or not - it's the multiplier you are after - if a fractional has a higher ratio-to-spot now, then that will simply hold up when it comes to re-sale - that's the nature of commerce. IMO this is only for fractionals that are a pure bullion play. I know nothing about numismatics, even though I find them interesting, but these would be more like artworks - hide them away in times of trouble, sell them when all the monkeys are patting themselves on the back.
One day, I'll be that guy in the picture there (only way more handsome and younger looking ... and with hair. Oh ... and a LOT more gold than that pishy flimsy piece of foil) ...
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Photonaware
Active Member
Welcome to the land of stackers.
I too am in the UK and envy those in Europe ( 7% VAT ), USA and Australia ( no tax ) buying their silver coins.
We Brits have to fork out 20% so unless you are selling on eBay where you can recover your money ( before fees ), silver is a VERY long term prospect.
Most popular silver coins are priced about 20% + above spot then the 20% VAT added so if spot is 20 your coin may cost you 30 plus shipping.
Buying a single 1 oz coin therefore probably costs about 30 including delivery.
Selling it back to a dealer you might end up receiving 18 after costs.
Doesn't sound like a great investment but you can get hooked on the silver stuff - like me.
Look out for offers on the web and be prepared to buy at least 20 oz at a time to keep costs lower and avoid overpriced coins.
Gold on the other hand is a whole different ball game.
The best deals I have seen are for half and full sovereigns and half or 1 Toz Krugerands.
These can be bought for spot + 3% and no VAT.
I very rarely see gold selling this cheap on eBay nowadays, 3 years ago yes, so don't waste your time on eBay.
Also, bars tend to be marked up 8 - 14% so not worth it.
Shipping is always by registered post costing about 6 - 8 so spend at least 500 to keep shipping as a percentage low.
The beauty of gold is the dealer may buy back your gold at spot or worst 98% of spot so you only need a rise of 5% or less in spot to make a profit.
Silver needs a substantial rise.
The risk is always - will gold rise or fall ?
If we knew the future we wouldn't be sitting at our computers writing blogs, that's for sure.
I too am in the UK and envy those in Europe ( 7% VAT ), USA and Australia ( no tax ) buying their silver coins.
We Brits have to fork out 20% so unless you are selling on eBay where you can recover your money ( before fees ), silver is a VERY long term prospect.
Most popular silver coins are priced about 20% + above spot then the 20% VAT added so if spot is 20 your coin may cost you 30 plus shipping.
Buying a single 1 oz coin therefore probably costs about 30 including delivery.
Selling it back to a dealer you might end up receiving 18 after costs.
Doesn't sound like a great investment but you can get hooked on the silver stuff - like me.
Look out for offers on the web and be prepared to buy at least 20 oz at a time to keep costs lower and avoid overpriced coins.
Gold on the other hand is a whole different ball game.
The best deals I have seen are for half and full sovereigns and half or 1 Toz Krugerands.
These can be bought for spot + 3% and no VAT.
I very rarely see gold selling this cheap on eBay nowadays, 3 years ago yes, so don't waste your time on eBay.
Also, bars tend to be marked up 8 - 14% so not worth it.
Shipping is always by registered post costing about 6 - 8 so spend at least 500 to keep shipping as a percentage low.
The beauty of gold is the dealer may buy back your gold at spot or worst 98% of spot so you only need a rise of 5% or less in spot to make a profit.
Silver needs a substantial rise.
The risk is always - will gold rise or fall ?
If we knew the future we wouldn't be sitting at our computers writing blogs, that's for sure.
Dogmatix
Active Member
wrcmad said:
I don't think it would proportionately hold up.
We don't notice so much when gold is still < $2,000oz
But if it was $10,000oz?
Some basic maths (with assumptions for free):
Currently you can get 1/10oz coins for about $180. That's a premium of about 10% compared to a 1oz coin.
So 9 x 1/10oz coins = 1 x 1oz coin... or about $180 premium per oz.
Gold at $10,000oz would mean that 1/10oz coins would have about $1,000 premium per oz, or $110 each.
Why? Does it cost $100 more per 1/10oz coin to mint it? Is it worth $100 more to have that divisibility?
I'd say - no. Premium could be worth up to $30-$50, depending on availability, but i don't think it scales.
That said, if you are in a SHTF situation, or want to make a smaller purchase, then divisibility could mean far more than a $100 premium.
"Anyone have spare change for a 1oz gold coin? I'm looking for $9000, and I need it now."
Dogmatix
Active Member
The counter-argument to my above ravings might be that at $10,000oz, gold might be a bit of a 'mania', and 1/10oz coins might be all that some people could afford. Plus if the price is going up (such as in a mania), people would rather get in at the 1/10oz level rather than save up for a full 1oz if the price would be significantly more by the time they got there.
So in summary: who the hell knows.
So in summary: who the hell knows.
wrcmad said:
Fair question - I guess we don't really know in a raging "end-of-bull" scenario, but I'd say it would still be a proportion, maybe a little elastic.
We can draw some comparisons between gold & silver as they trade right now:
Looking at the cheaper, commonly traded coins - for example - both 1/10oz gold and 1oz silver coins both have 19-22% "premium" over spot (it's not really a premium - it's just what they cost to buy from a dealer compared to the commodity's index price. AFAIK, you can only buy at spot if it's a paper contract ... or you are a very very very big buyer! Or a bank. Or buy from someone here who is willing to sell at current spot price.)
And for the "bigger buy" both 1oz gold and 1kg silver have prices of around 4-5% over spot.
(These are all roughly calc. on dealer sell prices btw)
So no matter what the absolute dollar price is, the lower "fraction" of the bullion tends to command the higher percentage price-over-spot - whether it's $36 or $189, both are ~20% over spot. (A 1/2oz dragon is 29% over spot!) So I suspect even if this is a 10 x scenario of $360 & $1890, if they are still perceived as the low-denomination-fractional of the bullion, they'll still command a higher price over spot (as a purchase from a dealer). Whether that is 19-20% who knows ... even 15% would be fine by me, as this would still translate into re-sale values.
The issue I have is this - if what I say above is possible, then I should just go and sell up all my big bullion and buy fractionals instead? Can't see myself doing that ... something in me says "buy as much of the metal as you can for the fiat you have"!
In any case ... if all your neighbours start talking about buying bullion; and all the bbq conversations are about precious metals; and it's featured in a double-page spread in the newspaper "How to invest in bullion" ... then SELL and SELL HIGH haha.
As Dogmatix summarises: who the hell knows. Fractional or not, I'd rather have it than not right now.
Good thread, thanks for provoking the thoughts.
Photonaware
Active Member
Silvered said:
Just to get you on the right tracks, you should NOT be paying more than 5% above spot ( or London fix ) for bullion gold half and full sovereigns.
( Proofs are a whole different ball game though. )
If you are then shop around a bit.
I currently buy at 3% above spot.
Also, be very careful with eBay prices as they tend to be higher and with some sellers the P&P makes buying a single coin somewhat OTT.
I have a couple of proof 1980 half sovereigns in original red leatherette cases with COAs that are surplus to my collection.
Check out prices on sites like BullionbyPost, Atkinsons etc and if interested I will post on the International forum for sale.
Photonaware
Active Member
Syd888 said:Well, my problem with fractionals is that there is rarely low premium on them. At the same time, definition of fractionals is quite subjective. Ask ABC next time how many 1kg bars they sell every week. So, apparently there is market for bigger bullions. I agree 100% that small coins/bullions are very handy for regular sells and swaps. But suppose you don't plan any sells for the next 10 years. Or you keep it for your children for even longer periods. I'd like to have premiums as low as possible. If I were rich I'd buy 1kg bars or even 400oz bars - stack and forget about it. But I'm not rich, so 1oz is my unit.
Now, if gold goes parabolic, then I don't want to keep it. Most likely I'll swap (sell) it for something else like real estate or some other asset whichever will be undervalued then. So, selling one 5oz bullion or 50 golden sim cards of 1/10oz won't make much difference I think.
ETA: Just look at this guy. Wouldn't you like to have a smile like this?
http://www.rapidtrends.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/alex-400oz-good-delivery3.jpg
Yes - a very smug look on his face.
Besucher 07 - i.e. visitor in Germany perhaps ?
If 007 then James Bond's replacement.
Wonder how he would react if the bar was full of tungsten rods !!