Sprott is short 1.8moz of silver

Black_Sun said:
bron suchecki said:
... vaults are not warehouses where you can zoom around with a forklift - they are designed to slow down as much as possible the getting out of stuff so it is harder to steal, so slow to get it in as well... then moving into a vault where the door/entry has only about 2cm clearance either side of a standard pallet ...
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Interesting point.
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Even so. Shift twenty pallets and double check them and you have another 20tons out the door. For all we know the silver is coming from numerous sites.

I'm sure Sprott would have consider what a reasonable time frame is for delivery. He's not a complete dumbo.
 
Silverthorn said:
the propestus indicates he can hold up to 10% in cash etc and the 50-60 million being talked about are in regard to a 1billion dollar fund.
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page 11 from the prospectus: "There is no limit on the total amount of silver that the Trust may sell in order to pay expenses, but the Manager intends that the cash reserve will not exceed 3% of the value of the net assets of the Trust at any time."

Where did you get the 10% from, page reference?
 
bron suchecki said:
Silverthorn said:
the propestus indicates he can hold up to 10% in cash etc and the 50-60 million being talked about are in regard to a 1billion dollar fund.
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page 11 from the prospectus: "There is no limit on the total amount of silver that the Trust may sell in order to pay expenses, but the Manager intends that the cash reserve will not exceed 3% of the value of the net assets of the Trust at any time."

Where did you get the 10% from, page reference?
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pg 26 of the prospectus kid dynamite linked to in his comment.

The Investment and Operating Restrictions provide that the Trust:
(a) will invest in and hold a minimum of 90% of the total net assets of the Trust in physical silver
bullion in London Good Delivery bar form and hold no more than 10% of the total net assets of
the Trust, at the discretion of the Manager, in physical silver bullion (in London Good Delivery
bar form or otherwise), debt obligations of or guaranteed by the Government of Canada or a
province of Canada or by the Government o
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Not having a go at you bron but after your experience with turk and his acolytes bad mouthing the Perth Mint I don't think its unreasonable to throw a few queries your way as well.
 
Black_Sun said:
Silverthorn said:
Sprott's dumb...
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and also

Silverthorn said:
He's not a complete dumbo.
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On a scale of 1 - 10, where 1 = "dumb", and 10 = "complete dumbo", what is his rating? :)
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the sprotts dumb comment was sarcasm?

edit

ie christians comment basically saying sprotts dumb and got screwed by the banks he was a client of.
 
Silverthorn said:
Shift twenty pallets and double check them and you have another 20tons out the door. For all we know the silver is coming from numerous sites.
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Flippant answer, avoiding a specific answer to my question.

Silverthorn said:
I'm sure Sprott would have consider what a reasonable time frame is for delivery. He's not a complete dumbo.
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Yes, so why did he act all surpised that it was "delayed" and bars were made after his purchase date?

It is fair enough to allow some time for delivery, even if you think it would only take a couple of days, but he also did not specify that the bars should be allocated on settlement, with delivery to follow, so he had a full bar list a few days after doing the purchase. This means that during the 3 months it took him to get his silver, he was holding paper silver. He had an agreement with a bullion bank for future delivery at which point he would pay cash when the bars were delivered. That is paper, not physical. If the bank failed, then he wouldn't get any physical. Yes, he was still holding the cash so wouldn't lose that, but if the silver price had went up significantly then he would book a loss on rebuying the silver from someone else. He put PSLV holders at exposure to a bullion bank's failure to delivery agreed upon physical.
 
Then we have a difference within the prospectus. I read it as saying minimum is 90% silver but operationally we want to hold 97%, so they will not hold 90% on an ongoing basis, otherwise it is the "90% physical silver trust".

Thanks for the page 26 reference. I note this from the section titled "Purchasing the Silver for the Trust's Portfolio": "A list of the bars available to fill the buy order is sent to the Manager by a bullion broker with whom the Manager has an established relationship."

Now I am totally confused, as this says to me that the trust should have got a bar list at time of purchase yet Sprott confirmed in many podcasts that some bars were minted AFTER his purchase, which means he didn't comply with his own prospectus?
 
Silverthorn said:
Not having a go at you bron but after your experience with turk and his acolytes bad mouthing the Perth Mint I don't think its unreasonable to throw a few queries your way as well.
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I've had plenty of crap thrown my way and getting thicker skin as I go but its not leathery yet.

What I find interesting is that no one, apart from Kid D and the Screwtape guys, is even interested in questioning some of the stuff the Sprott organisation says. I mean take this recent stuff from Rick Rule (http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldn...lver_Market_Is_Getting_Dangerously_Tight.html):

"Eric Sprott has pointed out that on a daily basis, the paper markets (futures markets) in silver trade about 100 million ounces, while the physical market produces less than 3 million ounces each day. That's an indicated 97 million ounce shortfall on a daily trading basis.

I would also like to add that 90 to 120 days ago, Eric Sprott was saying to me that the amount of silver available for good delivery, on the various metals exchanges in the world, was about 40 million ounces. So if you think about the fact that there were 40 million ounces available for good delivery, but 100 million ounces a day are traded, this would suggest that all of the available silver was traded before lunchtime.

I would also say that if this market begins to move to the upside, it would appear from the disparity of silver available to trade and the amount that actually does trade, that there is the strong case for some very substantial upside."

WTF, silver price will go up because there is a lot of turnover in silver. Completely ignores the fact that existing investor holdings might just turnover a bit. I mean I'm sure during the year more BHP shares are traded than new issues of, or existing BHP share that are on issue. It's like saying buy BHP shares because a lot of them have been traded?

But I have to take my hat off to him for the masterful marketing.
 
bron suchecki said:
Silverthorn said:
Shift twenty pallets and double check them and you have another 20tons out the door. For all we know the silver is coming from numerous sites.
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Flippant answer, avoiding a specific answer to my question.
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Yeah it wasn't in response to your post. I'm not the one the thinks its a big deal so why would I bothered. You don't comment much on the fact that not only is there an big error in your link but that the silver may well be coming from multiple sites.
Silverthorn said:
I'm sure Sprott would have consider what a reasonable time frame is for delivery. He's not a complete dumbo.
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Yes, so why did he act all surpised that it was "delayed" and bars were made after his purchase date?

It is fair enough to allow some time for delivery, even if you think it would only take a couple of days, but he also did not specify that the bars should be allocated on settlement, with delivery to follow, so he had a full bar list a few days after doing the purchase. This means that during the 3 months it took him to get his silver, he was holding paper silver. He had an agreement with a bullion bank for future delivery at which point he would pay cash when the bars were delivered. That is paper, not physical. If the bank failed, then he wouldn't get any physical. Yes, he was still holding the cash so wouldn't lose that, but if the silver price had went up significantly then he would book a loss on rebuying the silver from someone else. He put PSLV holders at exposure to a bullion bank's failure to delivery agreed upon physical.
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I guess he figures it was delayed beyond what he thinks is a reasonable time frame for delivery. So if he thinks a month or so is reasonable and it takes three then....
 
bron suchecki said:
Silverthorn said:
Not having a go at you bron but after your experience with turk and his acolytes bad mouthing the Perth Mint I don't think its unreasonable to throw a few queries your way as well.
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I've had plenty of crap thrown my way and getting thicker skin as I go but its not leathery yet.

What I find interesting is that no one, apart from Kid D and the Screwtape guys, is even interested in questioning some of the stuff the Sprott organisation says. I mean take this recent stuff from Rick Rule (http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldn...lver_Market_Is_Getting_Dangerously_Tight.html):
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Yes I must say no one ever bothers to pin him down on details about the delivery issue. It goes along with the interviews bias which is not healthy for the discussions on silver.

don't know about the comparison with bhp and rules comments though.
 
Silverthorn said:
You don't comment much on the fact that not only is there an big error in your link but that the silver may well be coming from multiple sites.
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Whats to comment? 15moz is still a lot of silver and will not take a couple of days to deliver. Whats your point about the multiple sites, that just adds to the amount of time it would take to deliver, which is what you were arguing against and I for. I know Warren from Screwtape is analysing the Sprott bar list and will wait for that to see how much came from US/Canada refineries.

Silverthorn said:
I guess he figures it was delayed beyond what he thinks is a reasonable time frame for delivery. So if he thinks a month or so is reasonable and it takes three then....
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As Yoda may say, Contracted or not contrated, there is no "reasonable". If he thought it should take a month, then would have contractually agreed to that upfront and not given the bullion banks an open, "whenever you can mate", date. He must have put in a maximum date, in which case he can't be surprised it might take that long as he agreed to it.
 
bron suchecki said:
Silverthorn said:
You don't comment much on the fact that not only is there an big error in your link but that the silver may well be coming from multiple sites.
Click to expand...

Whats to comment? 15moz is still a lot of silver and will not take a couple of days to deliver. Whats your point about the multiple sites, that just adds to the amount of time it would take to deliver, which is what you were arguing against and I for. I know Warren from Screwtape is analysing the Sprott bar list and will wait for that to see how much came from US/Canada refineries.
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Its a third less, if its such a big deal to ship as you say than that's quite considerable differnece. As to the sites, you think they marshall it all into one shipment before sending it or just send it straight to the canadian mint from those sites? I'm guessing from the fact that he only talked about 15,000,00 that he got the 7 million in a timely fashion and had to wait for the rest so its not unreasonable to assume it wasn't delivered all in one go.

Sprotts prospectus indicates they prefer to get from the US or Canada so I wouldn't even be assume there is a sea voyage involved but seems to be the basis for the arguement.

Silverthorn said:
I guess he figures it was delayed beyond what he thinks is a reasonable time frame for delivery. So if he thinks a month or so is reasonable and it takes three then....
Click to expand...

As Yoda may say, Contracted or not contrated, there is no "reasonable". If he thought it should take a month, then would have contractually agreed to that upfront and not given the bullion banks an open, "whenever you can mate", date. He must have put in a maximum date, in which case he can't be surprised it might take that long as he agreed to it.
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Do you know how he purchased it and how he contracted it. He may have just assumed delivery would be timely I have no idea really you may well be right but I don't think you know anymore detail than anyone else.

edit

I'd say Sprott big problems is he wants to take the silver out of the system. That's what he and clients seems to want. If you don't hold it you don't own it.
 
bron suchecki said:
Thanks for the page 26 reference. I note this from the section titled "Purchasing the Silver for the Trust's Portfolio": "A list of the bars available to fill the buy order is sent to the Manager by a bullion broker with whom the Manager has an established relationship."

Now I am totally confused, as this says to me that the trust should have got a bar list at time of purchase yet Sprott confirmed in many podcasts that some bars were minted AFTER his purchase, which means he didn't comply with his own prospectus?
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Maybe he learnt a thing or two from being screwed over by the banksters. Is a new prospectus or the orgninal?
 
This still bugs me.

There was no problem with the silver; he just did not negotiate and handle the bank properly. No surprise there to anyone who has watched his funds over the years. ..."
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This is the bank his gone to buy his silver for him? Who's acting on his behalf? Seems to me there was either a delay or the banksters played him because the system has become cannibalistic and try to screw people who's interest they should be working for. Can't see it making sprott look bad.
 
For any lurkers who care:

Sprott's NAV is now showing 38,114,060oz whereas it was 38,112,409 in KD's NAV snapshot, a difference of 1,651oz. I think this is an adjustment made once a firm bar list has been supplied by the bullion bank.

Note also Sprott is still stitting on $59,581,648 in cash. What is interesting is this is different to the cash from KD's snapshot, which showed a cash balance of $59,734,563.

The difference in the cash balances is $152,915. Take off $44,313 for the additional adjustment silver purchased ($26.84 x 1651oz) and you get $108,602 divide by 5,235,764oz being delivered and you get $0.021 per ounce, which is a reasonable shipment cost for that size within the US IMO.
 
Update. Since the above post PSLV has added 100,084oz, 300,413oz, 100,518oz, and 200,000oz. Cash balance at $39,797,808 which is 3.53% of Net Asset Value.

Right now each PSLV share equals 0.38066oz. Before the $200m issue it was 0.39203. For PSLV holder prior to the issue, they now have a 3% haircut.

I work out that to bring oz/share back to 0.39203 with a 1% cash reserve left over, PSLV needs to buy a remaining 1,155,646oz @ $24.63. Hmm
 
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