So what's the story of the German higher tax on silver now?

Pirocco

Pirocco

Well-Known Member
Dealers around claimed from 01/01/2014 the full tax (19 instead of 7%)
Alot (all the big ones) dealers are out of coin stock since about a whole month now, but still list the 7% in their pricing.
Others (small ones) do have coins available and still the 7% tax listed.
Did anybody here hurry last year to buy before the claimed higher tax arrival?
 
I bought a few bits to get the silver at the lower rates.

I can't work out what's happening with the tax - sometimes it's 19%, sometimes it's 19% but only on the margin, other times it's 7%.

Interestingly, the prices aren't wildly different though, from what I've found.
 
GE and BE dealers sit in same price range.
NE ones are higher.
Nevertheless, I've seen in recent years periods with the opposite situation, making clear that tax GE/BE/NE tax differences weren't the reason.
At some point I started to wonder whether some / alot are lying, or at least falsely suggesting, about tax, especially in the case where tax isn't mentioned at all on their invoices. Some1 that knew a local dealer more personally told me that the dealer, that explicitly stated on his invoices taxfree and a lawtext reference, regularly received flammatory emails from other dealers.
And that's why this German story outcome is of big interest to me.
 
Checked prices on my two German suppliers and both apply the 19% VAT on all silver coins even if purchased in Germany for domestic delivery. Days of cheap silver in the EU have ended. Lucky those in the southern hemisphere or in the USA. End of purchasing silver for me, preferring gold.
 
Photonaware said:
Checked prices on my two German suppliers and both apply the 19% VAT on all silver coins even if purchased in Germany for domestic delivery. Days of cheap silver in the EU have ended. Lucky those in the southern hemisphere or in the USA. End of purchasing silver for me, preferring gold.
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So far I didn't came across higher prices. I know because I keep since months an eye on some 2014 kilo lunars and the spot / sales price combination still is the same.
Atm I'm waiting for sub $18, and that would give kilocoins a price tag of abit over 500 euro. If I see reasons to change, I'll do so, so it's not like some fixed decision.
Did you actually see that 19% on an invoice?
Some examples:

http://www.gold-super-markt.de/silber.html?weight_unit=158
Silbermnze Maple Leaf 1 Unze
Netto: 17,53 Inkl. Steuern: 18,76
18.76-17.53=1.23
1.23/17.53=7,01%

http://www.silber-werte.de/Silberanlage
1,5 E Philharmoniker 1 oz Ag 2014
18,10
inkl. MwSt., zzgl. Versandkosten

http://www.kettner-edelmetalle.de/
1 Unze Maple Leaf 2014
18,34
inkl. MwSt. zzgl. Versandkosten
 
Silber said:
The prices at http://www.silber-corner.de/de/Kookaburra-2014-1-Kg-Silber-1 are explicitly declared as "Differenzbesteuert nach 25a UStG", that is, using the "difference taxation" that I already mentioned in http://forums.silverstackers.com/message-619323.html#p619323 . In contrast to what I said there, this "difference taxation" also seems to work for the Phillies or (as seen on other dealers' sites) for Umicore Coin bars.
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Okay, but I'm aware of what you said in that topic, and I checked then the law text, and I couldn't find anything addressing our case, and responded that in post #14 there.
This 'explicit declaration' you is just a reference to this law text, and in my eyes, it's telltaling that instead of a plain %, a law text reference is used.
And as I said in my previous post here, the coin prices don't reflect an increase. If I compare the spot > sales price combinations with those of Q4 2013, no difference.
What does interest me, hence my previous question, whether or not that 19% appears on their invoices. It wouldn't explain the same prices, but at least it would be a dealer-official statement, an open and legal statement, so if not true, could have legal consequences.
 
Another note regarding that "difference taxation", this is likely (in Netherland they call this 'marge<margin> regeling<arrangement>') taxation on dealers profit margin, not taxation on silver as such. It's only the profit margin part of the dealer that is taxed, not the whole sales value of the silver. But in this "difference taxation" case, the dealers are FORBIDDEN to put VAT on their invoices and are obliged to use the words "sold under the '<marge regeling>' " instead.

And more generally, "difference taxation" versus VAT is just a choice that dealers can make freely. They can choose themselves which. If they chose "difference taxation" then they have to pay VAT on the silver they buy from other businesses, and if they chose VAT then they can subtract that VAT from their taxes. A key element in this decision-making is whether or not the dealer intends to buy alot silver back from customers (thus nonbusinesses).

So IF 'more' dealers would now opt for the "difference taxation", then this is not related to law change, but just to their personal business model. Maybe the lower silver price, that could reflect more customers selling back to dealers, made it for some(?) dealers more attractive to chose the "difference taxation" tax model.
 
Interesting. Thanks for that. I hadn't really understood it; I thought I did and it didn't make sense, but now it does.
 
The topic in general has been actively discussed, e.g. in http://www.silber.de/forum/mehrwertsteuererhoehung-auf-silbermuenzen-t5903.html , and of course, gained more attention recently, but ... I did not read all the ~90 pages :D It's possible to find some info about the "Difference Taxation" in particular - mainly in German, of course, but e.g. http://www.goldseiten.de/artikel/18...Mehrwertsteuer-dank-Differenzbesteuerung.html , which at least indicates that it might be similar to what you described for the Netherlands, namely that the invoice will not contain any statement about the VAT, but only the note that it was 'Differenzbesteuert'. So until now, it seems that for the end customer, the new regulation does not change much (despite, possibly, the invoice - maybe I can say more about this after my next order :D)
 
Silber corner is one of the cheapest and best in Europe, but they don't sell silver outside Germany. Tried several times to buy anything from them (i'm from Holland) but they don't want to sell uotside the country, pitty..
 
haakma said:
Silber corner is one of the cheapest and best in Europe, but they don't sell silver outside Germany. Tried several times to buy anything from them (i'm from Holland) but they don't want to sell uotside the country, pitty..
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Well they sell into the UK I bought twice off them last month (Dec 2013),what they do like is you paying directly into their bank acc, they don't like paypal or credit cards.
 
motorbikez said:
haakma said:
Silber corner is one of the cheapest and best in Europe, but they don't sell silver outside Germany. Tried several times to buy anything from them (i'm from Holland) but they don't want to sell uotside the country, pitty..
Click to expand...

Well they sell into the UK I bought twice off them last month (Dec 2013),what they do like is you paying directly into their bank acc, they don't like paypal or credit cards.
Click to expand...
haakma still might be correct in his case. German law, according to EU central planning thieves, sets a per-country sales limit per time period. So if a certain dealer reached his limit for country A, then he can't sell any more to that country until limitation period ends. It's not really a 'sales limit' as such, it again depends on the tax method that the dealer chosed (margin or VAT).
 
16 januari, and German dealers still are out of stock.
So their business has no silver income. Since well over a month.
No US Mint sales figures yet.
Last year:
2013/01/03 0 50,000 8,000
2013/01/04 0 57,000 13,000
2013/01/05 0 65,500 14,500
2013/01/08 3,937,000 71,500 25,000
2013/01/09 4,287,000 73,000 27,000
2013/01/11 4,632,000 85,500 36,500
2013/01/12 4,782,000 97,500 36,500
2013/01/15 5,082,000 110,500 39,500
2013/01/16 5,132,000 113,000 39,500
2013/01/18 6,007,000 121,500 39,500
2013/01/19 6,007,000 127,000 39,500
2013/01/23 6,007,000 131,500 66,500
2013/01/26 6,007,000 132,000 67,000
2013/01/29 7,130,000 140,000 72,000
2013/01/30 7,420,000 140,000 72,000
2013/01/31 7,420,000 150,000 72,500
2013/02/01 7,498,000 150,000 72,500
For sure weird.
It's like they wait for something to replenish their stocks.
Do they expect a bigger price drop?

Edit: just discovered a change at a certain dealer:
Wiener Philharmoniker 2014 Silber 1 oz Lieferzeit ca. 7 Tage d
*
*
Differenzbesteuerung gem Sonderregelung fr Sammlungsstcke und Antiquitten 25a UstG.
17.90
[inkl. 0% MwSt zzgl. Versandkosten]
So instead of the claimed higher tax 7>19%, there is no tax anymore haha.
 
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