So no one can predict the market?

spannermonkey said:
:rolleyes:
Another speculator pissed of because he hasn't made $ since he got in :rolleyes:


what does this have to do with making dollars? Did I say that or did you just decide to be a troll and make your own words up? I am asking why the world allows corrupted individuals to decide the price of PM's
 
SilverPete said:
spannermonkey said:
:rolleyes:
Another speculator pissed of because he hasn't made $ since he got in :rolleyes:

Sound's more like the impotent rage of a 14 year old. Remember when he was slagging off KJC because he didn't understand basic math?

http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-51955-kjc-page-1.html

From the date of that thread, he only got in to silver 2 months ago.

I'll take that as a compliment. When did you get into investing in silver? mid 20s? late 20s? early 30s? when? and dont tell me that bullshit story of how you first started when you were a kid. Having you're parents give you a silver coin doesn't make you a investor.
 
Do you really think in my generation people know what investing means? I am in my early 20s and I should be going out and partying, maxing my credit card for that new phone and car.. yet I here I am.. the world has become worse.
This has nothing to do with silver that statement I made, it's about people not knowing what is going on with politics and corruption.
I mean what kind of dumbass invests in JP Morgan? You have mid age people investing in that company for nothing.

There is no need for generalizations.
Honestly, I think if you move outside your social circles you may find people who are different. There are many financially informed people our age. I am not trying to sound "up myself" but many people who are OUR age are actually able to do quite well for themselves in regards to keeping themselves informed.

Now to move onto the whole "dumbass invest in JP Morgan" ...
To be honest, what makes JP Morgan a bad investment??? If you are so sure, put in some future trades against them?
 
spannermonkey said:
SilverPete said:
spannermonkey said:
:rolleyes:
Another speculator pissed of because he hasn't made $ since he got in :rolleyes:

Sound's more like the impotent rage of a 14 year old. Remember when he was slagging off KJC because he didn't understand basic math?

http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-51955-kjc-page-1.html

From the date of that thread, he only got in to silver 2 months ago.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Back to primary school maybe :D

Back to primary aye? Shit I should go back to primary school.. How dare I get the measurement of an ounce wrong... Dammit.. I guess I'll need to book a one flight ticket to america and learn some american measurements since in this country called Australia, im sure you've heard of it.. we use kilo's and Grams.. so what I need to do now is tell my mum to buy me a ticket to america.. But first I have to hide my tonne of silver in my back yard...


dammit.. I just said mum.. and tonnes.. I meant mom and tons..

Go learn some metric before you try to insult someone.
 
lshallperish said:
spannermonkey said:
SilverPete said:
Sound's more like the impotent rage of a 14 year old. Remember when he was slagging off KJC because he didn't understand basic math?

http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-51955-kjc-page-1.html

From the date of that thread, he only got in to silver 2 months ago.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Back to primary school maybe :D

Back to primary aye? Shit I should go back to primary school.. How dare I get the measurement of an ounce wrong... Dammit.. I guess I'll need to book a one flight ticket to america and learn some american measurements since in this country called Australia, im sure you've heard of it.. we use kilo's and Grams.. so what I need to do now is tell my mum to buy me a ticket to america.. But first I have to hide my tonne of silver in my back yard...


dammit.. I just said mum.. and tonnes.. I meant mom and tons..

Go learn some metric before you try to insult someone.

LOL...

The troy ounce (oz t) is a unit of imperial measure. In the present day it is most commonly used to gauge the mass of precious metals. One troy ounce is currently defined as exactly 0.0311034768 kg or 31.1034768 g. One troy ounce is equivalent to approximately 1.09714 avoirdupois ounces.

The troy ounce is part of the troy weights system, many aspects of which were indirectly derived from the Roman monetary system. The Romans used bronze bars of varying weights as currency. An aes grave weighed equal to 1 pound. One twelfth of an aes grave was called an uncia, or in English an "ounce". Later standardization would change the ounce to 1/16 of a pound (the avoirdupois ounce), but the troy ounce, which is 1/12 of a troy pound (note that a troy pound is lighter than an avoirdupois pound), has been retained for the measure of precious metals. At 480 grains, the troy ounce is heavier than the avoirdupois ounce, which weighs 437 1/2 grains (exact by definition), about 10 percent more than the avoirdupois ounce, which is 28.349523125 g (exact).[1]
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_ounce 20/06/2014

It's not even American.... "bro"
It is a measurement used for Precious Metals internationally recognised.
You should've do more research before spending 3000$ on 4KG of silver before...
 
lead_human_zps7b9d2f5e.jpg~original
 
@ ishallperish

I commend you for having the openness and smarts to consider buying precious metals at such a young age. I am double your age and I still consider myself somewhat of a newbie (not to be confused with a nOOb).

I get your frustration. Unfortunately the world has never really worked the way it should for most people.

What I have learned is that manipulation occurs at every level and by most people involved with buying for profit or hoarding for gain, commodities. Most silver and gold permabulls, I'd argue, are involved with manipulation in the form of sentiment manipulation. But I think the "manipulation" you are most angry about is the daily price setting of pm's by the London Gold and Silver Fixing Companies. Just to let you know, this is far less pure manipulation than the manipulation permabulls are conducting with their far-fetched doom-and-gloom stories of an imminent world-wide financial catastrophe due to.....(wait for the scary sound effects).....fiat money!!!!!! Ah...grab your children and hide them in the cellar....ah!!!!

That's the world that too many permabulls want you to live in because your fear works to their advantage.

Anyway, back to the London Gold and Silver Fixing Companies. The price setting is probably not what you were led to believe. Here's a little more about it:
http://www.lbma.org.uk/pricing-and-statistics

The most important thing to remember about commodities (including pm's) is that they have no intrinsic value. The value they have is the value we place upon them as individuals and as groups of like-minded people, and as societies and nations. It's mostly sentiment-driven. A blob (non-denom, common bullion bar) of silver today means nothing to the vast majority of people. Why would they be interested in placing the same value on it as you or I??

Silver and gold are not money today....certainly not in any conventional sense. That's not to say that they never were. But we are living in the 21st century, not in the Bronze Age. The time we live in determines the value of pm's because people of today don't think the same way of gold and silver as people did in the Bronze Age or even 100 years ago for that matter.

I doubt that silver and gold will be used to back fiat currency in your or even your children's children's lifetime and I am not convinced that it's necessarily a good idea at this point to have currencies based on a gold standard. Tolly_67 put it well: "1. There is nothing wrong with fiat currency......if controlled properly." That's a whole other lengthy discussion though.


I'm gonna end here or be accused of building a frightening "wall" of text. Lot's more to say but keep in mind...commodities get their value from people (including how they use these commodities)...not the other way around.



.
 
col0016 said:
Would you pay $200 for an ounce of silver?
You have to understand that for most it is no more a store of wealth than an oz of copper, generally speaking the people on this forum are weirdos spending all their money on pieces of metal instead of cars/boats/tvs lol.
The same can be said about ANY inbetween step to what you really wanted.
That includes anything that is used in monetary roles, and even in case barter, so no broadly used medium of exchange, instead numerous, wherein someone spends on something he doesnt want, but does so nevertheless to satisfy somebody that DOES have what he's after.

A next comment is then about which product to use in such monetary role.
Do you trust electronic figures under control by a bank?
Do you trust people on the printed paper/cotton sleeves markets?
Do you trust people with stocks, bonds markets, etc?
Do you trust people with silver?
Do you trust people with houses as storage of value?

So your 'weirdos' just make a choice, like any other.
But as you say: the question is do you expect others to pay $200 for an ounce silver? If so, would you pay it yourself? If the answer is different, it could be an idea to think again. :P
 
On the other hand, a fiatcurrency is a theft scheme to begin with. It's a blueprint for theft, it's bound to end up inflated, and inflated, and again, inflated. Regardless who controls it, because the control on its own already corrupts. Only freely competing currencies, chosen by people on markets, with not any force based intervention, absence of state/tax, can be a 'best' possible situation. The question then is whether cheapskate products (that's what fiat is) will be trusted enough to make people accept them as payment.
 
Back on a positive note.
Silver will have its day in the sun but you are going to need patience. I have been waiting 3 years with more money primed to spend but it is not time. The time to buy is when things look the bleakest. It is hard to keep my hands in my pocket at the moment as silver surges but as with all falling markets, there will be decent rises in the fall.
Every conceivable reason for the rise in gold and silver has occurred....Q.E., threat of war, manipulation, currency weakness etc....yet it falls.
It is not that silver is doing the wrong thing, there is not enough buyers to overwhelm the sellers. Don't get caught up in the J.P. Morgan mega short nonsense. That has been circulating forever.
Everything moves in a cycle. Even real estate in Australia seems to defy logic until you understand the global market and capital flows. Regional issues will be trumped by global movements every time. This is why so many analysts are wrong because they live in a box. The actions of the u.s. Fed are overtaken by global events such that the proclamation that the u.s. Dollar is broken will make no sense when it will go to an all time high and that a weakening u.s. Economy will mean stock market crash when in fact it is becoming one of the safest places to invest globally and will go to an all time high.
Sort the wheat from the chaff. This is your problem. You have way too much chaff.
 
The single major element of impact was that quantitative easing wasn't what alot people touted.
It wasn't creating and spending fiat. It was just creating electronic fiat on balances at the central banks.
It wasn't spent, because the sole goal that central banks had with it, was to provide new dollars ONLY to selected. NOT to the mass.
Before, they did that by changing their interest rates (differences) while keeping the total money balance.
After they approached the zero interest rates pivot , and people that previously received would have to pay instead (on their own savings) they changed that to keeping the interest rates pivot, and instead changing the total money balance.

The sole end-to-end difference being that with the interest rates pivot, alot is affected (wages, pensions, insurances,...), while the excess reserves component of the total money balance, is something in a sterilized environment, with as (inflationary) 'leak' the interest rate that the central bank pays its member banks (Federal Reserve changed it to a negative rate, after US law changes were made to allow that) its member banks on their excess reserves).

Or in other words, all those newly created dollars, not their total amount was spent and thus inflationary, but only an interest rate on them was.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/INTEXC1.txt
2008-10-15 0.75
2008-10-22 0.75
2008-10-29 0.65
2008-11-05 0.65
2008-11-12 1.00
2008-11-19 1.00
2008-11-26 1.00
2008-12-03 1.00
2008-12-10 1.00
2008-12-17 0.25
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/INTEXC2.txt
2008-10-22 0.75
2008-11-05 0.65
2008-11-19 1.00
2008-12-03 1.00
2008-12-17 0.25

These 'rates on excess reserves' only started to exist in october 2008, when they started to blow up the excess reserves balance from a few dozens billions, to trillions.
Notice how during the crisis highdays, the rates were higher. For the obvious reason: to avoid banks having to tell their customers "no money sir".
But they quickly (matter of a few months) dropped to 0.25% (being a quarter of the highest) and stayed there upto present day.
This illustrates aboves change of central planning method to control inflation/general price increasing. Instead of changing interest rate, they change the balance total.
1% on a 100 billion balance is a 'donation' of 1 billion.
1% on a 1 trillion balance is a 'donation' of 10 billion.
Same interest rate, yet 'donation' is 10 times bigger.

A central bank can create 99999999999 trillion dollars, if the spending of these dollars is blocked (by increasing reserve requirements and by paying more than market rate) then they don't cause general price risings, only some temporary, due to people that didn't know this, assumed all spent, and high general price risings / serious inflation next.

And that's why some were willing to pay upto 5-folded prices for silver, and why we see now only a 2-fold. Byebye a
3-fold. That's the amount dollars that was chewed out from our market. It's very likely that these sit now on excess reserves balances at central banks, ready to be destroyed again. Goal achieved: getting rid of some of peoples bank savings, after which they can again raise interest rates. But if people get smarter, and don't just pay any price, it will make that alot harder for them, and finally result in the (general instead of selected) price risings degrees that affect them as well.
So, not paying prices that were driven up, and not selling at prices that were driven down, is the key to defeat Fed and Buddies. We try to live in a box we know and trust. They try to lure us out of it. Don't follow the price movements they bring. Just buy when they're out. Let them eat up eachother. Reward will be a more stable price trend, and more moments to buy/sell. No need to wait for peaks/bottoms. Just anytime, like money should be. :D
 
tolly_67 said:
Don't get caught up in the J.P. Morgan mega short nonsense.
The "mega short" on its own is not nonsense. That's just how it is. J.P Morgan does have a very large short position.
But what is J.P. Morgan? It's a bullion bank, and a swap dealer. It hedges its silver stocks against price drops due to temporary buyers (that drove price up first), while those temporary buyers need someone willing to sell silver temporarly. They both find eachother. There are eachothers counterparties. One side has to lose, the extra money on a futures market position account doesn't come from the void, it comes from another futures market position account, and indirectly, it can come from whoever in the silver market that paid a bloated price or sold cheapskate.

Basically, the futures market, both its supply and demand side, is a hedging environment, wherein people that currently own silver stocks, or intend to buy silver stock in a foreseeable future, hedge the value of their assets or price offers, against price movements caused by others. The 'future' part of it is to bridge time.
A solar panel producer foreseeing the need of 100 tonnes silver, may want to lock in a price, so that the prices on his solar panel offers to his customers, don't get 'outdated'. After the taking of a contract, he can't just tell his customers silver price rose so you gonna need to pay more now. A contract is a contract, and both parties want a fixed price. Without fixed prices, financial planning becomes quite hard.
At the other side, and for the same reason, someone with silver stocks, doesn't want to lose due to a dropping price. So, he takes an amount short positions to reduce that price risk.

Equally important: a hedge has two sides, of which one apparently isn't much talked about: it also gives away eventual profit due to a price that is driven towards your benefit. If someone has a stock of 10000 ounces silver, and he hedges it against price drops along 2 futures short positions of 5000 ounces, and the price rises, then he loses all the 'windfall' gains on his 10000 ounces by the losses on his 2 short positions.
Some pretend like they're 'making money' from silver price risings, and are safe against price drops due to hedging. On the timeline, that's just bullshit. It can't happen the same time. Every dollar gained in a hedge implies a dollar profit given away. If they want that profit-dollar, they have to dump its hedge.
 
mmissinglink said:
@ ishallperish

The most important thing to remember about commodities (including pm's) is that they have no intrinsic value. The value they have is the value we place upon them as individuals and as groups of like-minded people, and as societies and nations. It's mostly sentiment-driven. A blob (non-denom, common bullion bar) of silver today means nothing to the vast majority of people. Why would they be interested in placing the same value on it as you or I??

.
I'm not sure it is fair to say that commodities have no intrinsic value? It is true that they will not earn an income or pay an annual dividend. However, I do believe it could be argued they have an intrinsic value, perhaps not in the same way you would value a stock/business, but a value nonetheless. For me the intrinsic value is essentially the cost of production for a given commodity and the demand. It is because we are currently close to the cost price of gold and silver that I believe PM's represent reasonable value. Sure the price can go well below the cost price as much as above, but the further away we get from the intrinsic value the more speculative it becomes.

Having said this though I do understand your point. I get that gold has very little utility value and is essentially a "Blob" of metal that has a value based on"we say it does". However, in my opinion it is because it has an intrinsic value that makes it such a good form of money. It's the scarcity and energy required to produce it that makes it a great store of economic energy and a great medium of exchange. Personally, I belief everyone must have some way of determining for themselves when what you have is far from it's intrinsic value, this is the only way you can determine the best time to buy and sell.

Of course commodity markets are open to manipulation like many things, but remember manipulation works both ways, which is why I am not so sure what effect removing the London fix will have. The point is not to fear corruption, but to do your best to understand how the game is played!

To me a Dollar note or BitCoin have no intrinsic value...Just my thoughts!
 
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