SMSF - Arms length transactions of Bullion

SilverSanchez

SilverSanchez

Active Member
What are the requirements to proove an arms length transaction?
Is it a recipt with an abn - can you buy bullion of private buyers without being hassled by the tax man?
 
arms length means not buying off yourself or other beneficiaires or trustees, you can buy off any other entity that can provide you with a receipt
 
hiho said:
arms length means not buying off yourself or other beneficiaires or trustees, you can buy off any other entity that can provide you with a receipt
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I don't know what the super rules require, but i'm pretty sure this isn't right in a general commercial sense. Arms length is generally used when in fact you are undertaking a related party transaction or a transaction by its nature that may be viewed as not being on "market" or "arms length" terms (e.g. between entities you control).

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/armslength.asp#axzz1hp4l6e4a
 
So buying unallocated gold or silver from GoldStackers using my account but paying with my SMSF bank account and my purchase contract has my SMSF'S name on it correctly is acceptable?

As far as im concerned it is because Esuper can see exactly where the money came from, where it is, minutes of meeting done properly and I have a properly done contract of purchase?
 
Ausecon said:
hiho said:
arms length means not buying off yourself or other beneficiaires or trustees, you can buy off any other entity that can provide you with a receipt
Click to expand...

I don't know what the super rules require, but i'm pretty sure this isn't right in a general commercial sense. Arms length is generally used when in fact you are undertaking a related party transaction or a transaction by its nature that may be viewed as not being on "market" or "arms length" terms (e.g. between entities you control).

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/armslength.asp#axzz1hp4l6e4a
Click to expand...

you maybe correct the following details it more clearly

Before considering a Self Managed Superannuation Fund, please note some of restrictions relevant to SMSFs:

- Lending to trustees, members and their relatives.
- Acquiring assets from 'related parties' of the fund.
- Borrowing.
- Investing in in-house assets.
- All the investments need to follow the two main rules: "sole purpose test" and "arms length".
- It is the duty of the SMSF trustees to separate the SMSF assets from their own personal assets, or assets belonging to their business.
- SMSF assets cannot be used for personal or business purpose, this representing the "sole purpose test" i.e. the funds in the SMSF are for retirement purposes only, and can generally not be accessed until retirement.

N.B. Money from the fund must not, under any circumstance, be used for personal or business purposes, as mentioned above. The fund's assets must not be viewed as a form of credit or emergency reserve, should the need arise! The main purpose of the superannuation investment is to generate and grow retirement benefits for the members.
 
Wout said:
So buying unallocated gold or silver from GoldStackers using my account but paying with my SMSF bank account and my purchase contract has my SMSF'S name on it correctly is acceptable?

As far as im concerned it is because Esuper can see exactly where the money came from, where it is, minutes of meeting done properly and I have a properly done contract of purchase?
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I would say that fails
 
Wout said:
In what way Hiho? I just want to make sure its all legitimate
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hey I'm no expert but you are combining personal and SMSF allocated storage, maybe non-recourse can answer this one
 
I plan to take physical delivery of it though and keep my personal in unallocated, surely that would be fine as long as im happy to allow an audit of the SMSF bullion with 21 days warning
 
You Self Managed super fund is not your money - i know that sounds crazy - but when you entered into the contract you are the manager of the fund not its owner - yes at a certain age you are the beneficiary - but untill the funds are released legaly to you - your relationship to the money and assets are on the basis that you have a fiduciary relationship to the fund.

Its convoluted but its clear. Your money and the fund's money must remain seperate. Otherwise you are in breach of the trust.
 
Wout said:
I plan to take physical delivery of it though and keep my personal in unallocated, surely that would be fine as long as im happy to allow an audit of the SMSF bullion with 21 days warning
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If your storing it it has to be in the name of your SMSF. Also unallocated/allocated means the mint or who ever you are storing your gold bullion with can play fractional reserve banking games with your bullion by "lending" it out to others to short the market or other banking games.

The perth mint will tell you they don't do that....pigs ass I say. The Bank of Nova Scotia in Canada was caught doing that very thing last year. Also have a look at MF Gobal what they did with customers gold bullion contracts that the customers paid for and the delivery was seized by the trustee of bankrupcy.

The only way to hold gold bullion is to set up a safety deposit box in a capital city vault. Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

Kind Regards
non recourse
 
Im storing it with Gold Stackers, I guess Ill try and set up another Account for my SMSF with them, Ill talk to Gp about it. The esuperfund website says I can store it wherever I like as long as there is a paper trail and that they recommend insurance but its not necessary.

Thanks Non Recourse

Wout
 
Wout said:
Im storing it with Gold Stackers, I guess Ill try and set up another Account for my SMSF with them, Ill talk to Gp about it. The esuperfund website says I can store it wherever I like as long as there is a paper trail and that they recommend insurance but its not necessary.

Thanks Non Recourse

Wout
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Woute why store it with another company who then you have to trust to do the right thing. That is why I won't store my bullion with even private companies that offer storage facilities, I store it in one of the 4 big banks safety deposit boxes.

If you have seen the news this week of a father son cat burgler duo who raided a private vault and stole hundreds of clients safety deposit boxes this should alert you to the dangers of being wary of private vaults.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mo...-65-million-haul/story-fn7x8me2-1226232879134

Also a good reason I guess to insure.


Kind Regards
non recourse
 
nonrecourse said:
Wout said:
Im storing it with Gold Stackers, I guess Ill try and set up another Account for my SMSF with them, Ill talk to Gp about it. The esuperfund website says I can store it wherever I like as long as there is a paper trail and that they recommend insurance but its not necessary.

Thanks Non Recourse

Wout
Click to expand...

Woute why store it with another company who then you have to trust to do the right thing. That is why I won't store my bullion with even private companies that offer storage facilities, I store it in one of the 4 big banks safety deposit boxes.

If you have seen the news this week of a father son cat burgler duo who raided a private vault and stole hundreds of clients safety deposit boxes this should alert you to the dangers of not being wary of private vaults.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mo...-65-million-haul/story-fn7x8me2-1226232879134

Also a good reason I guess to insure.


Kind Regards
non recourse
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Yea I plan to take physical delivery as soon as its pooled.

Im currently trying to organise a separate account for my SMSF then moving the purchases into that then asking for delivery
 
nonrecourse said:
why store it with another company who then you have to trust to do the right thing. That is why I won't store my bullion with even private companies that offer storage facilities, I store it in one of the 4 big banks safety deposit boxes.

If you have seen the news this week of a father son cat burgler duo who raided a private vault and stole hundreds of clients safety deposit boxes this should alert you to the dangers of being wary of private vaults.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mo...-65-million-haul/story-fn7x8me2-1226232879134

Also a good reason I guess to insure.


Kind Regards
non recourse
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As both a director and shareholder of the company in question, I can assure you that the private vault facility being used for unallocated metals storage of the Gold Stackers unallocated program is incomparable to the "safe deposit lockers" that were in use at Kennards that are mentioned in the above article. Those lockers were a pin number and bolt cutter away from being accessed, which is how 36 (not hundreds) were able to be accessed presumably in one session.

We use a world class facility that requires electronic, biometric and security key access in the presence of a vault staff member to access - none of this "24 hour access" rubbish. Many are aware of the name of this facility, but we no longer "confirm or deny" where we store for security reasons.

Any suggestion that the unallocated program we offer is anything other than 100% backed by physical bullion under our control with no third party usage or claim is simply wrong.

Why on earth would we create unfunded liabilities in what is in my opinion an ongoing bull market for metal.
 
Sorry pelican I was not having a go at you or your service. I apologise unreservedly:(
I have no time for banks either but being ano retentive that in my opinion is my best option
Kind Regards
non recourse
 
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