now that silver is going through the roof and if we sell the ATO is going to want their cut How many of us kept record's of our purchase post 1985 , I started stacking in 2010 and didn't think about an exit plan so treated the purchases like buying jewellery especially from the forum market place I am not looking for advise, my accountant already read me the riot act about keeping proper records, On a positive note that's the excuse I'll give my other half when she wants me to sell and I don't want to
Silver cgt
- Thread starter gnik1
- Start date
Slimey
Well-Known Member
from ato webpage.
Collectables
A collectable is subject to CGT unless:- you acquired the collectable for $500 or less
- you acquired a share in the collectable for $500 or less before 16 December 1995
- you acquired a share in the collectable when the collectable had a market value of $500 or less.
- artwork
- jewellery
- antiques
- coins or medallions
- rare folios, manuscripts or books
- postage stamps or first day covers.
If you dispose of collectables individually, that would usually be disposed of as a set, they are exempt only if you acquired the set for $500 or less after 16 December 1995.
It took me a couple of months but I went through all my old emails, found all the eBay notices and all the emails from the bullion dealers and pieced it all together. Added in all the Personal Messages I could find from this site and have managed to trace about 90% of all my purchases. All new purchases go straight into the spreadsheet with all the info I can find.
I have put them all into a Google spreadsheet which automatically updates the spot for gold and silver. I then started to add columns for profit, percentage profit, annualised percentage profit etc. Along with purchase dates, purchase prices, order numbers, basically all the info I could pull from the emails.
Once that was up and running I added all my cryptocurrency and cash / bank holdings and just for fun, the real estate. The crypto also updates automatically.
Then I found all the records for the SMSF and added them in a separate table.
I stuck a dashboard at the top so I can see a summary of all my holdings and now I just stare at it every couple of minutes in disbelief.
Most of my silver and gold was bought as coins for under $500 as part of my hobby of coin collecting so I think that is a get out of tax free situation but I have never tested it. I also give away silver as gifts at Christmas and birthdays so that gets complicated as I don't keep track of that and there are no records. Apparently I have 20 x 1/10g Valaurum gold notes from 2014 but I have no idea what happened to them.
I have put them all into a Google spreadsheet which automatically updates the spot for gold and silver. I then started to add columns for profit, percentage profit, annualised percentage profit etc. Along with purchase dates, purchase prices, order numbers, basically all the info I could pull from the emails.
Once that was up and running I added all my cryptocurrency and cash / bank holdings and just for fun, the real estate. The crypto also updates automatically.
Then I found all the records for the SMSF and added them in a separate table.
I stuck a dashboard at the top so I can see a summary of all my holdings and now I just stare at it every couple of minutes in disbelief.
Most of my silver and gold was bought as coins for under $500 as part of my hobby of coin collecting so I think that is a get out of tax free situation but I have never tested it. I also give away silver as gifts at Christmas and birthdays so that gets complicated as I don't keep track of that and there are no records. Apparently I have 20 x 1/10g Valaurum gold notes from 2014 but I have no idea what happened to them.
So as you mentioned, collectable coins obtained below $500 per coin are tax exempt.
Bullion however IS subject to the 50% CGT discount when held for >1 year.
Categorically though:
Coins that are NOT 999 are NOT bullion. (No CGT discount)
Bars/coins that ARE bullion and purchaced above $500 each are to be stamped as 999 to classify AS bullion.
Coins that trade at premiums above their silver/gold weight are collectable.
When purchased in bulk, the cost is still "per coin". I.e: (1966 50c 80% silver: Do sell at premium and ARE collectable, MANY people collecct in bulk BUT, their ARE rare finds, misstrikes and uncirculated ones that we look out for with extra value.
This is important when we consider: Sovereigns (91.6% gold) purchaced for >$500... (full tax applies)
So: How to structure your collections and your bullion investments for tax?
1: use the My Gov app to help if you like: record ALL your prior years capital losses where BULLION is sold at a loss. Where any CGT event losses are noted, this offsets your gains.
2: gold and silver bullion profits CGT gains are applied against losses BEFORE the discount are applied.
I.e: prior years losses of 10k and a 15k profit this year means I will gain $5k at tax time after prior losses, and then the 5K over the top is discounted 50%.
I'd then add 2.5k to my income and be taxed at the nominal rate.
Any profits from items like sovereigns that are taxed at the FULL rate (if recorded purchaced above $500 each), you'd want to subtract FIRST, so the overflow from your discountable profits are last to be be added.
Say I sell and profit another 5k from sovs this year. I'd deduct these from historic losses first, then I'd have 10k gains for the year attributed to bullion.
Then that 10k is 50% discounted (as I have 15k total of discountable profits in that mix, see...), 5k profit added to income for tax in next year.
Optimally, selling out the full tax obliged assets into your historic losses, up to that limit, will maximise the discounts your eligable for.
Collectables, dont even have to declair them... (just... for due diligence sake, keep your records on purchaces and sales if the values you hold are HIGH. As a forum of diehard collectors, i can only assume that if the metals prices on largd holding goes bezzerk, if their any question, remember that if its not 999 and it was purchaced and sold at premiums or otherwise disjoint to its metal value. It shpuld be treated as a collectable.
im against an assets classification beling subject to "intent" in its classification in tax.
something > is or isnt a collectable, IMO. Its not subject to how i FEEL about it, or my intent in its use... that said. BUY valid collectables as they are classified, collect and enjoy them. I have a great time using old coins pre-dec coins in monopoly games and searching through "junk" discount bulk lots for rare finds that have a much higher relative value. I also DONT open my sealed collectable rolls where coins are purchased individually under $500 as the plastic wrap protects them from accidently busting open and getting oxidation exposure, and ensures that in the future if i want pgcs grading etc, its got better chances for the elusive UC67+ rating. Thats all part of coin collecting.
Note: structuring wash sales is BAD, and likely to work against you. (Also note, if you DID sell gold to buy it again, within 1 year, every transactipn IS a technical CGT event. the fact losses deduct from gains before the discount applies prevents an advantage scenario from making a deliberate loss to make a larger gain later when related to bullion.
If your looking to adjust holding over a FY border (June 30)
I.e, i wont be selling what will push me into the next tax bracket, especially where ill be taxed in full beyond deductable losses, this year.
I will, however, sell gold at a loss (if it drops) IF ive sold silver at a profit and my profits exceed those limits.
and then buy back, collectables or bullion depending on my risk appetite come july august.
If you want metals exposure and fear a top holding collectables that DONT have capital gain or loss status applicable. Then:
Sell your collectable <$500 silver coins. And BUY gold bullion. (as a change of metal and classification its a lot clearer its a change of your investment category not a tax avoidance activity)
If it (gold) falls and you decide to sell at a loss later, then at least you CAN claim a capital loss against that.
And if you hold and it goes up.
50% discount applies after a year.
Hope that helps... also i hope thats right.. (thats how i understand it anyway)
Bullion however IS subject to the 50% CGT discount when held for >1 year.
Categorically though:
Coins that are NOT 999 are NOT bullion. (No CGT discount)
Bars/coins that ARE bullion and purchaced above $500 each are to be stamped as 999 to classify AS bullion.
Coins that trade at premiums above their silver/gold weight are collectable.
When purchased in bulk, the cost is still "per coin". I.e: (1966 50c 80% silver: Do sell at premium and ARE collectable, MANY people collecct in bulk BUT, their ARE rare finds, misstrikes and uncirculated ones that we look out for with extra value.
This is important when we consider: Sovereigns (91.6% gold) purchaced for >$500... (full tax applies)
So: How to structure your collections and your bullion investments for tax?
1: use the My Gov app to help if you like: record ALL your prior years capital losses where BULLION is sold at a loss. Where any CGT event losses are noted, this offsets your gains.
2: gold and silver bullion profits CGT gains are applied against losses BEFORE the discount are applied.
I.e: prior years losses of 10k and a 15k profit this year means I will gain $5k at tax time after prior losses, and then the 5K over the top is discounted 50%.
I'd then add 2.5k to my income and be taxed at the nominal rate.
Any profits from items like sovereigns that are taxed at the FULL rate (if recorded purchaced above $500 each), you'd want to subtract FIRST, so the overflow from your discountable profits are last to be be added.
Say I sell and profit another 5k from sovs this year. I'd deduct these from historic losses first, then I'd have 10k gains for the year attributed to bullion.
Then that 10k is 50% discounted (as I have 15k total of discountable profits in that mix, see...), 5k profit added to income for tax in next year.
Optimally, selling out the full tax obliged assets into your historic losses, up to that limit, will maximise the discounts your eligable for.
Collectables, dont even have to declair them... (just... for due diligence sake, keep your records on purchaces and sales if the values you hold are HIGH. As a forum of diehard collectors, i can only assume that if the metals prices on largd holding goes bezzerk, if their any question, remember that if its not 999 and it was purchaced and sold at premiums or otherwise disjoint to its metal value. It shpuld be treated as a collectable.
im against an assets classification beling subject to "intent" in its classification in tax.
something > is or isnt a collectable, IMO. Its not subject to how i FEEL about it, or my intent in its use... that said. BUY valid collectables as they are classified, collect and enjoy them. I have a great time using old coins pre-dec coins in monopoly games and searching through "junk" discount bulk lots for rare finds that have a much higher relative value. I also DONT open my sealed collectable rolls where coins are purchased individually under $500 as the plastic wrap protects them from accidently busting open and getting oxidation exposure, and ensures that in the future if i want pgcs grading etc, its got better chances for the elusive UC67+ rating. Thats all part of coin collecting.
Note: structuring wash sales is BAD, and likely to work against you. (Also note, if you DID sell gold to buy it again, within 1 year, every transactipn IS a technical CGT event. the fact losses deduct from gains before the discount applies prevents an advantage scenario from making a deliberate loss to make a larger gain later when related to bullion.
If your looking to adjust holding over a FY border (June 30)
I.e, i wont be selling what will push me into the next tax bracket, especially where ill be taxed in full beyond deductable losses, this year.
I will, however, sell gold at a loss (if it drops) IF ive sold silver at a profit and my profits exceed those limits.
and then buy back, collectables or bullion depending on my risk appetite come july august.
If you want metals exposure and fear a top holding collectables that DONT have capital gain or loss status applicable. Then:
Sell your collectable <$500 silver coins. And BUY gold bullion. (as a change of metal and classification its a lot clearer its a change of your investment category not a tax avoidance activity)
If it (gold) falls and you decide to sell at a loss later, then at least you CAN claim a capital loss against that.
And if you hold and it goes up.
50% discount applies after a year.
Hope that helps... also i hope thats right.. (thats how i understand it anyway)
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