safety deposit boxes - why non bank?

dccpa said:
Never heard of or read about a SDB being looted in my state or anywhere else.
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Seriously? It seems to be a relatively common occurrence in the US. Have read plenty of stories over the years, especially from allegedly innocent people

http://deadlyclear.wordpress.com/20...stomer-safe-deposit-box-and-removes-contents/

http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=4832471

http://archive.mises.org/16433/california-seizing-property-from-safety-deposit-boxes/

Bit of Googling will turn up a lot more examples. Even for the UK.

June of 2011, the Department of Homeland Security had sent written messages to banks throughout the United States informing them that the agency has the authority, "under the Patriot Act," to inspect safety deposit boxes, without a warrant. Further, bank employees are forbidden to reveal when DHS agents perform these inspections, even to the person whose box was inspected.
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House said:
dccpa said:
Never heard of or read about a SDB being looted in my state or anywhere else.
Click to expand...
Seriously? It seems to be a relatively common occurrence in the US. Have read plenty of stories over the years, especially from allegedly innocent people

http://deadlyclear.wordpress.com/20...stomer-safe-deposit-box-and-removes-contents/

http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=4832471

http://archive.mises.org/16433/california-seizing-property-from-safety-deposit-boxes/

Bit of Googling will turn up a lot more examples. Even for the UK.

June of 2011, the Department of Homeland Security had sent written messages to banks throughout the United States informing them that the agency has the authority, "under the Patriot Act," to inspect safety deposit boxes, without a warrant. Further, bank employees are forbidden to reveal when DHS agents perform these inspections, even to the person whose box was inspected.
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All those ones you cited appear to be regarding the same Bank America-California incident that I mentioned. And none of them involve bank robbers, outside of government officials.

All the banks around here use a two key system and the bank does not have a copy of your key. DHS could break into a lock box or two, but doing so on a large scale would make news and things would hit the fan. Anything is possible, but DHS breaking into SDBs is not something I would concern myself with.
 
dccpa said:
I agree with BB and that is why I store my pms at banks and make sure that everyone who knows I own pms is aware of that fact. Other than TV shows, how many times have you seen or read about the contents of a SDB being looted?

Only two situations I have heard of were both done by authorities.

1. The British police raided SDBs as House mentioned. And a lot of contents were stolen by policemen and the government lost several million dollars in damage payments.

2. A Bank America branch in California sent SDB contents to the state even if they were current. Again, a huge screw up that cost BA.



Never heard of or read about a SDB being looted in my state or anywhere else. To each their own, but I would rather have my pms where a criminal cannot force me to give them to him.
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Some years ago thieves got into the SDB vault at a bank in Sydney's Chinatown and looted the boxes. Police were a little bemused because while clearly mega amounts of valuables were taken very few of the box owners were willing to say exactly what they had in the boxes to aid their return should the thieves be caught.
 
Results not typical said:
dccpa said:
I agree with BB and that is why I store my pms at banks and make sure that everyone who knows I own pms is aware of that fact. Other than TV shows, how many times have you seen or read about the contents of a SDB being looted?

Only two situations I have heard of were both done by authorities.

1. The British police raided SDBs as House mentioned. And a lot of contents were stolen by policemen and the government lost several million dollars in damage payments.

2. A Bank America branch in California sent SDB contents to the state even if they were current. Again, a huge screw up that cost BA.



Never heard of or read about a SDB being looted in my state or anywhere else. To each their own, but I would rather have my pms where a criminal cannot force me to give them to him.
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Some years ago thieves got into the SDB vault at a bank in Sydney's Chinatown and looted the boxes. Police were a little bemused because while clearly mega amounts of valuables were taken very few of the box owners were willing to say exactly what they had in the boxes to aid their return should the thieves be caught.
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I know about this case, that bank was dodgy period. It wasn't one of the big4. There have been rumours that it was an inside job (through the chinese community there) mostly, in those cases wouldn't the police ask for CCTV? who when in at what time and access records?

My suggestion is to stick with the big 4. I know the SDB requires us to sign in and use 2 keys. BTW the waiting lists for these boxes are really long now, given that ANZ shut down their facilities in Martin Place at the beginning of this year. Thats an extra 5000 clients rushing into the other SDB facilities and turned away.

I think this topic has been discussed in a thread prior, I still trust my big4 banks box rather than some private facility (even though its state of the art technology).

Slam
 
mmissinglink said:
There certainly are risks to SDB's. No bank that I am aware of in the US provides insurance....that's up to the renter of the SDB. Will an insurance co provide insurance for exactly what you store in the SDB? I don't know...you'll have to inquire. In my town, the fees associated with an ample size SDB and insurance fees make that avenue quite a costly way to hold pieces of metal.

On the web there are articles written on some creative ways / places to store your metal yourself. Everything from false walls to in ground burial. You might want to read some of those articles before you go the route of a SDB.


.
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If you've been watching Breaking Bad then you would know how to hide your metal from the thieving government :lol:
 
Chillidog said:
Burial down a metre now that sounds like fun, ever tried to did that deep by hand.
Looking at senario
Dig massive hole, last time I did that in the back yard,rubble pit, the guy next door thought I was burring the missus as he had not seen her for a while. She was looking after her sick mother.
Place pm in hold backfill.
Never dig it up as it's long term,die ,metel given back to the earth.
Maybe it's just me, but 2 x 10oz bars of gold is small and easy to hide, lose, without a big hole.
Given most stackers have less(some much less) than 1000oz silver say $26k I can't see what all the paranoia is, I park a car worth twice as much and walk away from it, no insurance, every day.
Maybe I'm just not that paranoid.
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or maybe you just don't have that much in PM's ... :lol:
 
lol @ the amount of apathy of some of those who contributed to this thread! :lol:

Especially Bullion Baron - that was a real shocker to me!
 
Silver Pauper said:
... start looking around you... there plenty of cyclists riding a bike worth $10,000... the average amateur photographer will have $6000 hanging on his shoulders... the average business person has more than $5000 in their laptop, phone, etc... the tool bag of the average tradie is worth more than $5000... many folks have a $10,000 home theatre system... plenty of homes have artworks hanging on the wall that are worth $5000... the list goes on and on... and all these people have little concern about being robbed, maimed or killed for any of this stuff...
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While that is true...

Bikes do get nicked
Bags do get snatched
Tradie vans and worksites do get broken into
Houses get burgled
and people get mugged

The fact that most people have little concern about this could be why it happens when it does.

I have friends over from South Africa, they can't believe how much stuff gets left unattended, how much people carry around on them and how little care they take of their posessions. I guess people are not as desperate as they are in South Africa but I am just as concerned about the above as I am about my PMs.
 
systematic said:
Worth? It is important to not confuse "worth" with "price" and actual "value"
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My view on PM's is that they are an alternate fiscal storage facility to a savings account, term certificates, stocks, and etc... nothing more and nothing less. So their worth is only the value of goods or services that I can get in exchange which is equal to the price of the currency of my locale. Outside of this gold and silver has little or no value if you are not into jewelry or looking for specific thermal or conductive properties. 1kg of fine tool steel has a lot more inherent worth than 1kg of gold or silver.

And if you are stacking gold and silver for a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI event and you do not have direct control of your PM's, you are out of business. Banks, vaults, hoards, stashes, bunkers, and etc are going to be targets of organised and overwhelming violence which in most cases the guardian or caretaker is not going to exchange his life for your metal. And you think that you are going to be able to trundle down to your bank or vaulting service to collect your metals and think that you and the dozens of others doing the same are not targets as well? Good luck, because when the SHTF, the world of teddy bears, butterfly kisses and unicorns is long over.

And I agree things are stolen all the time, so do your own due diligence and develop a security plan that works for your community, which may include deceit, rottweilers, holes in the ground, etc and etc, just as you would carry a bike lock, keep tools in secure boxes, etc and etc. Not that hard to take responsibility for what is yours instead of depending on someone else to do it for you.
 
Bullion Baron said:
Closure of doors in the event of a bank run is likely to be temporary, perhaps a few days or a week.
The bank is likely to be bailed out by government (or taken over by another bank) in the event of it's failure. Guardian Vaults or another private vault wouldn't be bailed out.
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I'm just trying to figure out why Guardian Vaults would need a bail out... it's not like they're a bank with loans out there that can go bad (a la 2008 in the USA) or suffer a "bank run" that might predicate the doors being closed?
 
Any organization storing goods for you that acquires debt may subject you to problems. Let us assume they default on rent (if they don't own the building but rent it) or acquire other debt that they default on. It is then possible that the debtor may attach through a court their property.
The court may incorrectly assume the contents of their vault is theirs and attach these items - your bullion. While you may eventually prove that the property is not the custodians but yours it may cause you many months of angst. Then of course the insurance - do you pay the insurance company directly - probably not. If the custodian does not pay the policy you may be out of pocket in the event of a loss. There are many other possible issues with storing valuables or bullion.
 
Midnight Man said:
Bullion Baron said:
Closure of doors in the event of a bank run is likely to be temporary, perhaps a few days or a week.
The bank is likely to be bailed out by government (or taken over by another bank) in the event of it's failure. Guardian Vaults or another private vault wouldn't be bailed out.
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I'm just trying to figure out why Guardian Vaults would need a bail out... it's not like they're a bank with loans out there that can go bad (a la 2008 in the USA) or suffer a "bank run" that might predicate the doors being closed?
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They could fail just like any company could. The likelihood in that situation the boxes could be looted by owners/management is I would think extremely low but certainly possible.

I asked them what happened if I lost my keys and they would charge me to drill out the lock so there is a contingency in place for them to access boxes without keys - obviously protocol in that instance would be to do so with box owner (renter) present.
 
Golden ChipMunk said:
Kam-L said:
dccpa said:
and the bank does not have a copy of your key
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How can you be sure about that ?
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Bank do have spare keys.
It happen in decease estates, where boxes need to open up for certain things.
ie Wills
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I was told by my bank that if I die or lose the key that it would have to be bored out and rebuilt, in the case of me losing my key I would be billed for the work. They could have been lying but I don't think so.
 
Axolotl_ said:
I was told by my bank that if I die or lose the key that it would have to be bored out and rebuilt, in the case of me losing my key I would be billed for the work. They could have been lying but I don't think so.
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That is what I would expect for a dual key operated system.

That might be available at a big CBD branch of a bank but from what I understand (might be wrong here), many suburban bank branches don't have this facility.
There are no keys or even boxes for that matter - you basically provide a metal box that they store inside their safe for you.
In this scenario how easy would it be for a bank employee with gambling problems to just walk out with your 'box' ?

Not sure what the waiting lists are like for the big branch proper boxes.
Banks don't seem to be building any new facilities.
 
It depends on the size of the branch.

Many/most branches had NIL storage apart from a cash safe with maybe a small amount of spare room to put an envelope with a title or share certificates.

Some has a small 'strong room' that may have had room for a customers locked box, with padlock from Bunnings. The top of the service range was the Safe Custody Department usually deep in the basement of Head Office.

Each box there had 2 keys, one in the possession of the customer, and the other under the control of the Manager of the department. BOTH had/have to be in the box at the same time. The Manager had NIL idea of the contents, and had NIL legal right to ask or get an answer. The Banks has NIL Title to those contents. The government can do what it effing well likes, but is STILL governed by Section 51 (xxxi).

NIL spares, and drilling was the only way to get past that need. A lost key was $200 to drill out and refit. They cannot get into the box with only one key.

When I was in Westpac in the 1980s they even had mink coats on hangers, and works of art wrapped in protective wrapping. Stacks of locked tool boxes, and all in an untidy MESS. All that was in addition to the normal drawers of about 5 different sizes.


OC
 
PS,

My friend was the Manager of ours, and he felt certain that much of Melbourne's drugs were stored there, and "if a sniffer dog was put there it would go mad". No real proof of course!


OC
 
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