Matthew 26:14
New Member
Just curious as to whether anyone has done this and the result? Thinking of the colored lunars in particular.
Removing color from Perth Mint silver
- Thread starter Matthew 26:14
- Start date
I'd go acetone....paint stripper is caustic and may pit the surface!
Interesting.... I've heard this discussed recently whilst visiting our western colleagues. 
Matthew 26:14
New Member
Thinking that if the bullion Dragons are limited to 300k but the mint will pump out a few hundred thousand more of coloured variates, could be worth considering removing the color if it can be done without damage to the surface.
1for1
Well-Known Member
Matthew 26:14 said:
Hi, yeah saw this being discussed.. we still dont know if the coloured ones will carry a premium over the standard bullion dragons do we? For it to be worthwhile youd really want the price iff to be minimal.. if the coloured dragons are $115 each for example.. youd need to be anticipating the bullion 300k dragons to skyrocket to justify..
I guess i dont know all the varibales yet.. also.. i actually cleaned my 2000 dragon and basically ruined it back in 08 cos it had burnished up completley... looking back it was a beautiful site to behold.. completely toned up.. point is i ruined it cleaning it the usual way i do.. these products get scratched very easily compared to pre decimal.
I hope the perth mint differentiate the product to avoid this... i want to easily be able to identify the limited 300k bullion form the other 64 varities the perth mint are SPINNING out to maximise there profits from this cash cow.
It will remain to be seen i suggest.
1for1
hobo-jo said:
Pretty sure none of us would be doing such deceptive things but it's possible and likely that others will do it out there.
Really pays off to be vigilant against any potential 'exploits' such as acetoning of colored coins.
Deceptive has never stopped some eBay sellers, 100mills etc etc
Matthew 26:14
New Member
Just going by the rabbit for example. You can buy a coloured for about $50. If the coloured dragons go for that, then it could be worthwhile at some point getting rid of the enamel.
Word from the Mint is that the uniformed coloured Dragons (i.e. the colour varieties like red, blue, brown etc) are all destined for the Chinese market as special order, at a premium - and the "regular" coloured Dragons (i.e. full coloured) will be sold in the normal presentation packaging with COAs etc at the expected premiums locally. The rolls of coloured Lunars available in the past were supposed to be limited to an excess stock disposal technique... but it would be interesting to find out exactly how many Rabbits were sold in this fashion - the presentation Rabbit was meant to be limited to 3,800 - out of a worldwide mintage of 170,000 - which sounds a little more than excess stock!
Time will tell if rolls of coloured Dragons start turning up in other markets outside of China in great quantity.
Time will tell if rolls of coloured Dragons start turning up in other markets outside of China in great quantity.
Those mirror fields are so delicate. If you could do it without any physical contact..i.e. chemical bath and water flushing, it might work. Otherwise, the moment you touch them they'll scuff and you risk devaluing the coin below even it's coloured price.
1for1
Well-Known Member
Clawhammer said:
Yes they are.. i experimented with the 2000 dragon and i lost.. I used the softest rubber (scchhh.. my cleaning secret) i owned - the technique i use to clean numismatic antique coins, after that im never gonna try to clean bullion again.. so those fields get scratched highly easily and moreso than anything else ive cleaned in my time.
From what Gold Pelican is suggesting.. well be lucky to even get these coloured ones if they are destined for the overseas market... could this eat up the demand for the 300 k straight bullion versions?
The idea of buying a more expensive coin to remove the value added paint to attempt to pass it off as a straight bullion is mildly humerious... im still thinking the prices wont make this feasible for a good few years.
Im still banking on the bullion dragons being a top investment, but Perth Mint going all out and cashing in on the hysteria is course for concern and reason to not go all in.
1for1
Matthew 26:14
New Member
goldpelican said:
The colored Lunar selling process is a joke. The CoA that comes with the colored boxed Lunar says that it is one of 3,800 limited presentation to be released in Australia. But straight away Perth Mint distributors in the US and Europe have a stock to sell to their local customers. Then the extra 170,000 coloured coin only are sent to distributors overseas and not Australia - why? Because Australian customers were supposed to get one of the 3,800. But right from the very start 3,800 were no for the Australian market. So Aussies get left with how ever many of the 3,800 arent shipping overseas and no access to the coloured only coins unless they want to buy and import from the US or Europe. Aussies get royally shafted.
Golden
Member
You guys are lucky, here in EU we're flooded with colored lunars. First it was 1oz. Then it was 1/2oz. Now it's 2oz. All years. Expecting 5 and 10oz colored lunars any day now.
At least this topic has put my mind to rest. I was afraid that the people will remove color from coins and sell them as regulars ones. I'm glad to hear it won't work.
At least this topic has put my mind to rest. I was afraid that the people will remove color from coins and sell them as regulars ones. I'm glad to hear it won't work.
G
Guest
Guest
My Acetone baths are ready and waiting for mass production.
Dip and strip will be my motto
Taking pre orders for Bullion Dragons now,boxed with COA
I'll do the same to these as i do to those bloody coloured Kangaroo's!!!
Dip and strip will be my motto
Taking pre orders for Bullion Dragons now,boxed with COA
I'll do the same to these as i do to those bloody coloured Kangaroo's!!!
Matthew 26:14
New Member
Golden said:
Are you sure you will see many color 5oz rabbits on the market given the mint stopped making them months ago ?
The following document should be read by all so that there is no misunderstanding regarding these offences as they are completely illegal and definately NOT recommended or authorised by anyone with authority.
Crimes (Currency) Act 1981...s.6, s.7, s.9, s.11, s.14, s.16, s.17, s.18
http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C2008C00400/
Defacing (and the many laws below) of Australian currency (without authorisation as I suspect that has been done) are Commonwealth offences, and can collectively attract a large jail sentence, fine or both, irrespective of the reason for doing so.
(SECT 16
Defacing or destroying current coins or current paper money
A person shall not, without the consent, in writing, of an authorized person, intentionally deface, disfigure, mutilate or destroy any coin or paper money that is lawfully current in Australia.
Penalty:
(a) in the case of a person, not being a body corporate--$5,000 or imprisonment for 2 years, or both; or
(b) in the case of a person, being a body corporate--$10,000.)
Once a coin has been defaced, the defacer has then made counterfeit money.
6 Making counterfeit money or counterfeit securities
A person shall not make, or begin to make, counterfeit money or a counterfeit prescribed security.
Penalty:
(a) in the case of a person, not being a body corporateimprisonment for 14 years; or
(b) in the case of a person, being a body corporate$75,000.
Possession of defaced currency is an additional commonwealth crime.
(SECT 18 Possessing defaced coins or paper money
A person shall not have in his or her possession for sale a coin or paper money that is lawfully current in Australia and that has been defaced, disfigured or mutilated, knowing it to have been defaced, disfigured or mutilated.
Penalty:
(a) in the case of a person, not being a body corporate$5,000 or imprisonment for 2 years, or both; or
(b) in the case of a person, being a body corporate$10,000.)
Possessing counterfeit currency is also a commonwealth crime.
9 Possessing counterfeit money or counterfeit securities
(1) A person shall not:
(a) have in his or her possession counterfeit money (not being an excepted counterfeit coin), knowing it to be counterfeit money; or
(b) have in his or her possession a counterfeit prescribed security, knowing it to be a counterfeit prescribed security.
(1A) Subsection (1) does not apply if the person has a reasonable excuse.
Note: A defendant bears an evidential burden in relation to the matter in subsection (1A) (see subsection 13.3(3) of the Criminal Code).
(2) It is a defence to a prosecution of a person for an offence against subsection (1) in relation to the possession of counterfeit money or a counterfeit prescribed security if the person charged establishes to the satisfaction of the court:
(a) that he or she did not make the counterfeit money or counterfeit prescribed security; and
(b) that he or she did not, after the time when he or she first learned that the counterfeit money or counterfeit prescribed security was counterfeit money or a counterfeit prescribed security or the time when he or she acquired the counterfeit money or counterfeit prescribed security, whichever was the later time, have a reasonable opportunity to surrender it to a member of the Australian Federal Police or of the police force of a State or Territory or to any other person prescribed for the purposes of this section.
(3) A person shall not, with intent to defraud, have in the possession of the person an excepted counterfeit coin, knowing it to be counterfeit money.
Penalty:
(a) in the case of a person, not being a body corporateimprisonment for 10 years; or
(b) in the case of a person, being a body corporate$50,000.
Additionally, the (clean) acetone that has been used could also be considered to be an instrument to create counterfeit currency in the method used.
11 Instruments and material used for counterfeiting
(1) A person shall not:
(a) make or mend, or begin or prepare to make or mend;
(b) buy, sell, receive or dispose of, or offer to buy, sell, procure or dispose of; or
(c) have in his or her possession;
a machine, engine, tool, plate, die or other instrument that, to his or her knowledge, has been used, has been adapted for use, or is intended for use, in, or in connection with, the making of counterfeit money or counterfeit prescribed securities.
Penalty:
(a) in the case of a person other than a body corporateimprisonment for 10 years; or
(b) in the case of a body corporate500 penalty units.
(2) A person shall not:
(a) buy, sell, receive or dispose of, or offer to buy, sell, procure or dispose of; or
(b) have in his or her possession;
bullion, paper, metal, ink, dye or other material that, to his or her knowledge, has been used, or is intended for use, in, or in connection with, the making of counterfeit money or counterfeit prescribed securities.
Penalty:
(a) in the case of a person, not being a body corporateimprisonment for 10 years; or
(b) in the case of a person, being a body corporate$50,000.
(3) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply if the person has a reasonable excuse.
Note: A defendant bears an evidential burden in relation to the matter in subsection (3) (see subsection 13.3(3) of the Criminal Code).
The used acetone can also be considered to be material that has been used to create counterfeit currency
(15 Possessing filings, clippings etc.
(1) A person shall not have in his or her possession any material that, to his or her knowledge, was obtained by dealing with genuine coin in such a manner as to diminish its weight, whether that material consists of filings, clippings, dust, bullion or diminished coin, is in solution or is in any other form.
Penalty:
(a) in the case of a person, not being a body corporate$10,000 or imprisonment for 5 years, or both; or
(b) in the case of a person, being a body corporate$20,000.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply if the person has a reasonable excuse.
Note: A defendant bears an evidential burden in relation to the matter in subsection (2) (see subsection 13.3(3) of the Criminal Code).)
Providing information on how to create counterfeit currency is also a commonwealth crime.
(14 Information with respect to counterfeit money or counterfeit securities
(1) A person shall not give, or offer to give, information with respect to the manner in which or the means by which counterfeit money or counterfeit prescribed securities may be made, bought, sold, procured or disposed of.
Penalty:
(a) in the case of a person, not being a body corporate$10,000 or imprisonment for 5 years, or both; or
(b) in the case of a person, being a body corporate$20,000.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply if the person has a reasonable excuse.
Note: A defendant bears an evidential burden in relation to the matter in subsection (2) (see subsection 13.3(3) of the Criminal Code).)
All counterfeit currency is worthless and must be handed to the nearest police station or AFP office (as per the Commonwealth Act above s.9 (2)(b)).
Further Commonwealth offences can be committed if the counterfeit currency is then offered for sale, imported, exported or even uttered to any person.
Crimes (Currency) Act 1981...s.6, s.7, s.9, s.11, s.14, s.16, s.17, s.18
http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C2008C00400/
Defacing (and the many laws below) of Australian currency (without authorisation as I suspect that has been done) are Commonwealth offences, and can collectively attract a large jail sentence, fine or both, irrespective of the reason for doing so.
(SECT 16
Defacing or destroying current coins or current paper money
A person shall not, without the consent, in writing, of an authorized person, intentionally deface, disfigure, mutilate or destroy any coin or paper money that is lawfully current in Australia.
Penalty:
(a) in the case of a person, not being a body corporate--$5,000 or imprisonment for 2 years, or both; or
(b) in the case of a person, being a body corporate--$10,000.)
Once a coin has been defaced, the defacer has then made counterfeit money.
6 Making counterfeit money or counterfeit securities
A person shall not make, or begin to make, counterfeit money or a counterfeit prescribed security.
Penalty:
(a) in the case of a person, not being a body corporateimprisonment for 14 years; or
(b) in the case of a person, being a body corporate$75,000.
Possession of defaced currency is an additional commonwealth crime.
(SECT 18 Possessing defaced coins or paper money
A person shall not have in his or her possession for sale a coin or paper money that is lawfully current in Australia and that has been defaced, disfigured or mutilated, knowing it to have been defaced, disfigured or mutilated.
Penalty:
(a) in the case of a person, not being a body corporate$5,000 or imprisonment for 2 years, or both; or
(b) in the case of a person, being a body corporate$10,000.)
Possessing counterfeit currency is also a commonwealth crime.
9 Possessing counterfeit money or counterfeit securities
(1) A person shall not:
(a) have in his or her possession counterfeit money (not being an excepted counterfeit coin), knowing it to be counterfeit money; or
(b) have in his or her possession a counterfeit prescribed security, knowing it to be a counterfeit prescribed security.
(1A) Subsection (1) does not apply if the person has a reasonable excuse.
Note: A defendant bears an evidential burden in relation to the matter in subsection (1A) (see subsection 13.3(3) of the Criminal Code).
(2) It is a defence to a prosecution of a person for an offence against subsection (1) in relation to the possession of counterfeit money or a counterfeit prescribed security if the person charged establishes to the satisfaction of the court:
(a) that he or she did not make the counterfeit money or counterfeit prescribed security; and
(b) that he or she did not, after the time when he or she first learned that the counterfeit money or counterfeit prescribed security was counterfeit money or a counterfeit prescribed security or the time when he or she acquired the counterfeit money or counterfeit prescribed security, whichever was the later time, have a reasonable opportunity to surrender it to a member of the Australian Federal Police or of the police force of a State or Territory or to any other person prescribed for the purposes of this section.
(3) A person shall not, with intent to defraud, have in the possession of the person an excepted counterfeit coin, knowing it to be counterfeit money.
Penalty:
(a) in the case of a person, not being a body corporateimprisonment for 10 years; or
(b) in the case of a person, being a body corporate$50,000.
Additionally, the (clean) acetone that has been used could also be considered to be an instrument to create counterfeit currency in the method used.
11 Instruments and material used for counterfeiting
(1) A person shall not:
(a) make or mend, or begin or prepare to make or mend;
(b) buy, sell, receive or dispose of, or offer to buy, sell, procure or dispose of; or
(c) have in his or her possession;
a machine, engine, tool, plate, die or other instrument that, to his or her knowledge, has been used, has been adapted for use, or is intended for use, in, or in connection with, the making of counterfeit money or counterfeit prescribed securities.
Penalty:
(a) in the case of a person other than a body corporateimprisonment for 10 years; or
(b) in the case of a body corporate500 penalty units.
(2) A person shall not:
(a) buy, sell, receive or dispose of, or offer to buy, sell, procure or dispose of; or
(b) have in his or her possession;
bullion, paper, metal, ink, dye or other material that, to his or her knowledge, has been used, or is intended for use, in, or in connection with, the making of counterfeit money or counterfeit prescribed securities.
Penalty:
(a) in the case of a person, not being a body corporateimprisonment for 10 years; or
(b) in the case of a person, being a body corporate$50,000.
(3) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply if the person has a reasonable excuse.
Note: A defendant bears an evidential burden in relation to the matter in subsection (3) (see subsection 13.3(3) of the Criminal Code).
The used acetone can also be considered to be material that has been used to create counterfeit currency
(15 Possessing filings, clippings etc.
(1) A person shall not have in his or her possession any material that, to his or her knowledge, was obtained by dealing with genuine coin in such a manner as to diminish its weight, whether that material consists of filings, clippings, dust, bullion or diminished coin, is in solution or is in any other form.
Penalty:
(a) in the case of a person, not being a body corporate$10,000 or imprisonment for 5 years, or both; or
(b) in the case of a person, being a body corporate$20,000.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply if the person has a reasonable excuse.
Note: A defendant bears an evidential burden in relation to the matter in subsection (2) (see subsection 13.3(3) of the Criminal Code).)
Providing information on how to create counterfeit currency is also a commonwealth crime.
(14 Information with respect to counterfeit money or counterfeit securities
(1) A person shall not give, or offer to give, information with respect to the manner in which or the means by which counterfeit money or counterfeit prescribed securities may be made, bought, sold, procured or disposed of.
Penalty:
(a) in the case of a person, not being a body corporate$10,000 or imprisonment for 5 years, or both; or
(b) in the case of a person, being a body corporate$20,000.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply if the person has a reasonable excuse.
Note: A defendant bears an evidential burden in relation to the matter in subsection (2) (see subsection 13.3(3) of the Criminal Code).)
All counterfeit currency is worthless and must be handed to the nearest police station or AFP office (as per the Commonwealth Act above s.9 (2)(b)).
Further Commonwealth offences can be committed if the counterfeit currency is then offered for sale, imported, exported or even uttered to any person.
Matthew 26:14
New Member
I remember Paul Keating signing a $5 note and never being charged.....
Graeme said:I'm sure any evidence would be tragically lost in a boating accident Aust-Tech.
not unheard of for forum inputs to be brought up in courts.
Great post Aust-Tech, thanks for taking the time to inform others about the law pertaining to defacing legal tender.