Reason's why you invest/ Also nice collection of silver.

[BeHereNow]

So each month I sell off 100, and - what? I have no income each month to pay my bills.

I don't get you here, you sell 100 that month, but you then say you have no income that month?
Selling = giving away without being paid?

According to trew my ASE cannot bring me income.
It would have been clearer as "I have no income each month to pay my bills?
Sorry for the confusion.

 

[BiGs]

So say spot price goes up to $30.

This is speculation. Spot price may not hit $30. It may not hit $30 at all.

An investment is when you see a steady and almost guaranteed return on your invested moneys. Silver is not this.

 

[BeHereNow]

So say spot price goes up to $30.

This is speculation. Spot price may not hit $30. It may not hit $30 at all.

An investment is when you see a steady and almost guaranteed return on your invested moneys. Silver is not this.

Why do you avoid the obvious???
How is a stock market purchase an investment (according to your criteria)?

Buy anything - green beans.
You buy wholesale, sell retail, feed your family.
Are you suggesting the green bean seller gives a guarantee of some sort - on value?

And where you come from the stocks are rock solid - will always gain in value???

Any investment is speculation.

 

[BiGs]

So say spot price goes up to $30.

This is speculation. Spot price may not hit $30. It may not hit $30 at all.

An investment is when you see a steady and almost guaranteed return on your invested moneys. Silver is not this.

Why do you avoid the obvious???
How is a stock market purchase an investment (according to your criteria)?

Buy anything - green beans.
You buy wholesale, sell retail, feed your family.
Are you suggesting the green bean seller gives a guarantee of some sort - on value?

And where you come from the stocks are rock solid - will always gain in value???

Any investment is speculation.

You buy a stock with dividend paying free cash flow, you have the invested capital plus a steady income via dividends. If you buy a stock that is not cash flow positive and is not paying a dividend then you are speculating that your invested capital will go up.

Buying something and selling it later for profit is not investing.

 

[BiGs]

Ok, buying something and selling it later for profit could be called speculative investing. But there is a big difference.

 

[BeHereNow]

This is speculation. Spot price may not hit $30. It may not hit $30 at all.

An investment is when you see a steady and almost guaranteed return on your invested moneys. Silver is not this.

Why do you avoid the obvious???
How is a stock market purchase an investment (according to your criteria)?

Buy anything - green beans.
You buy wholesale, sell retail, feed your family.
Are you suggesting the green bean seller gives a guarantee of some sort - on value?

And where you come from the stocks are rock solid - will always gain in value???

Any investment is speculation.

You buy a stock with dividend paying free cash flow, you have the invested capital plus a steady income via dividends. If you buy a stock that is not cash flow positive and is not paying a dividend then you are speculating that your invested capital will go up.

Buying something and selling it later for profit is not investing.

Then we shall say that 401ks, that do not pay monthly dividends, rather lose money, month after month, losing more than the new contributions, are not investments, or they are???
That was my experience with 401k for a few years.
Worth $100k, add $7k, now worth $95k.
That is investment, not speculation?

 

[BeHereNow]

Maybe I have it figured out.

If you don't buy an actual commodity, just a piece of paper, it is an investment.

If you buy the actual commodity instead, that is speculation.

Does that work?

 

[BiGs]

Then we shall say that 401ks, that do not pay monthly dividends, rather lose money, month after month, losing more than the new contributions, are not investments, or they are???
That was my experience with 401k for a few years.
Worth $100k, add $7k, now worth $95k.
That is investment, not speculation?

401ks are a US thing and I am not familiar with them. Depends what it is invested in, what funds, what the funds invest in. Surely you have control of it? An investment is not a guarantee of making money. You still have possible capital loss to contend with. Just that it is not solely dependent on that capital.

 

[BiGs]

Maybe I have it figured out.

If you don't buy an actual commodity, just a piece of paper, it is an investment.

If you buy the actual commodity instead, that is speculation.

Does that work?

You can invest your money in a commodity. But it will be based on speculation of spot going up.

 

[BeHereNow]

Then we shall say that 401ks, that do not pay monthly dividends, rather lose money, month after month, losing more than the new contributions, are not investments, or they are???
That was my experience with 401k for a few years.
Worth $100k, add $7k, now worth $95k.
That is investment, not speculation?

401ks are a US thing and I am not familiar with them. Depends what it is invested in, what funds, what the funds invest in. Surely you have control of it? An investment is not a guarantee of making money. You still have possible capital loss to contend with. Just that it is not solely dependent on that capital.

A 401k is a mutual fund, tied into retirement, limited accessibility, the owner determines a risk level, not actual funds.

Here is what I see.
If one agrees that a commodity has strong potential to increase in value - compared to purchase price, it is an investment.
If one doubts that a commodity will increase in value - compared to purchase price - it is speculation.

Does that work?

~ ~ ~
Definition of 'Investment'


An asset or item that is purchased with the hope that it will generate income or appreciate in the future. In an economic sense, an investment is the purchase of goods that are not consumed today but are used in the future to create wealth. In finance, an investment is a monetary asset purchased with the idea that the asset will provide income in the future or appreciate and be sold at a higher price.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/investment.asp

~ ~
It may be that hope is more important than expectations.

 

[BeHereNow]

Maybe I have it figured out.

If you don't buy an actual commodity, just a piece of paper, it is an investment.

If you buy the actual commodity instead, that is speculation.

Does that work?

You can invest your money in a commodity. But it will be based on speculation of spot going up.

So you disagree with trew, who says "A stack is not an investment"?

I often see those who clearly are pro-Wall Street, say PMs are not an investment.
As far as I can see, it is simply a matter of perspective, opinion.

 

[Pirocco]

So each month I sell off 100, and - what? I have no income each month to pay my bills.

I don't get you here, you sell 100 that month, but you then say you have no income that month?
Selling = giving away without being paid?

According to trew my ASE cannot bring me income.
It would have been clearer as "I have no income each month to pay my bills?
Sorry for the confusion.

I interpreted trew as 'no extra income'.
For ex, if you buy a house, and let others use it, they pay you rent. You own the house, and it gives an income without selling the house.
In the case silver coins, it doesn't. They need to be sold.
I don't see silver as an investment too, for exactly this reason. In my eyes, an investment is something that increases production, as to return more than the investment. My silver coins are just dead metal, I do nothing with them, they just sit there, and when sold, they will be exactly the same as when I bought them. I have not any economical right on 'more'. If I get more, then it's just a shift in a zero sum market, meaning that my 'more' implies anothers 'less'.
SELLING ASE's does give an income. If I had 1000 ASE's, and I sell 100 every month, then I have an income for 10 months. It's that simple.
And obviously: in the end, this is just a postponed spending. In some past, I didn't spend, I kept it as money, and in the future of selling the ASE's for what I really wanted, I finally spend.

 

[SilverLight]

I look only to maintaining the value of what I have today, without losing it's value to speculators - a curse on a mans hard work - of which there is plenty in a greedy world, right or left.

I think things are over-complicated by people here, with a vested interest in confusion, who desire a 'return' on their 'investment'. A purely intellectual exercise as far as I am concerned, by people who just 'want' more, even if only on paper.

What will happen in the future is anyone's guess? The value of your fiat is relative, to what the POTB decide. Today it buys such and such, tomorrow - who knows, might be devalued by 90%?

Silver - or other, if you actually 'possesses' it can always be traded as long as 'people' believe it has a redeemable value - they can trade it on.

Will the 'value' of silver be redeemable/tradeable after a SHTF scenario? Because I don't see any other value to owning PM's. Who knows?

 

[BeHereNow]

I don't get you here, you sell 100 that month, but you then say you have no income that month?
Selling = giving away without being paid?

According to trew my ASE cannot bring me income.
It would have been clearer as "I have no income each month to pay my bills?
Sorry for the confusion.

I interpreted trew as 'no extra income'.
For ex, if you buy a house, and let others use it, they pay you rent. You own the house, and it gives an income without selling the house.
In the case silver coins, it doesn't. They need to be sold.
I don't see silver as an investment too, for exactly this reason. In my eyes, an investment is something that increases production, as to return more than the investment. My silver coins are just dead metal, I do nothing with them, they just sit there, and when sold, they will be exactly the same as when I bought them. I have not any economical right on 'more'. If I get more, then it's just a shift in a zero sum market, meaning that my 'more' implies anothers 'less'.
SELLING ASE's does give an income. If I had 1000 ASE's, and I sell 100 every month, then I have an income for 10 months. It's that simple.
And obviously: in the end, this is just a postponed spending. In some past, I didn't spend, I kept it as money, and in the future of selling the ASE's for what I really wanted, I finally spend.

One of our posters buys silver under spot $20, sells when it increases - for a profit. Drains off some of that profit, waits for spot to again drop, again buys when spot is under $20, a quantity as much as previously sold.
This is what retail merchants do.
Buy a commodity (wholesale or on sale), sell at full price, siphon off the profit, buy more commodity (wholesale or on sale), wait, sell.

If you think a landlord - house renter - is not selling his structural property (not the land) a bit at a time......
That structure needs replenished, maintained, repaired, just to keep an even keel.
Put no money into it, and in a decade or two no one will pay rent.

As the definition I borrowed from investopedia indicates, "investment' has two faces.
With one, the investment generates new 'things', produces 'stuff', and this is sold for profit. Profit comes after expenses, which includes not only initial investment, but overhead, labor, energy, taxes, more.
With the other, a commodity is bought, and in a different market climate it is sold, for profit.
This 'different market climate' can include many things, geographical area, seasonal changes, or just time passing, and market prices increasing.

When my parents operated a dry goods and food store, they did not produce a single thing.
Created nothing.
Produced no new thing, in order to maintain an income. They were middlemen. That is what retail sales is.
Sales, retail or wholesale, is not about producing widgets, it is about transfer of wealth.
Give me your fiat so I can pay my bills. In exchange I will give you food to feed your family.

Can a person or family provide for all of their needs just from buying and selling 'dead metal'?
Ask the owners of JM Bullion.

As silvlerlight has said, and I believe you have at least implied, many of us are happy to retain the value of what we have. We do not expect to pay our daily expenses. However, down the road, it may do exactly that.
Keep fiat, and it evaporates. Guaranteed.
Any commodity may evaporate, but we choose some commodities that we expect to increase in value, and stay ahead of inflation.
For many of us that is PM.

For others it is the stock market or similar.
The days of watching your money grow in a savings account, or in your home, are no more.
I would not advise anyone to take all of their money out of stocks to buy commodities, like PM, but I would advise that before putting all money into stocks and no commodities, like silver.

If one or more of my children or grandchildren could change silver bullion into desirable jewelry or other merchandise, then one kind of investment has turned into the other, a la Silver Bullet Silver Shield, and others.

 

[lshallperish]

I am well into an hour of silver bullet silver shield (6 hour video) and the guy spoke about how rare silver will become, he said that we basically have no silver reserves due to high demand in silver and low production rate.

 

[lshallperish]

Maybe I have it figured out.

If you don't buy an actual commodity, just a piece of paper, it is an investment.

If you buy the actual commodity instead, that is speculation.

Does that work?

Maybe that's what everyone want's us to think? I mean if i buy a stock that is related to mining gold or related to silver thats an investment.. of course it is but go and get the real thing and you get a big no..

 

[lshallperish]

I don't think people are looking at this for the long term.. what will happen in 20-30 year's time? We had silver reserves and now they don't exist because it's in demand.. more silver is being used than mined.. with growing number's of population everyone will want a peice of something that will contain silver.. silver is now being used in clothing industry as well.. so how long can this metal last before it run's out or becomes so low in number's that some company's like apple will miss out on building computers etc etc 1999 we were using 100 million troy ounces of silver and now we are using over 350 million try ounces in 15 year's it has more than tripled, imagine 30 year's from now 500 million troy ounces? could that be our average use of silver in that time period?

 

[trew]

Can one 'invest' in the stock market?

Yes absolutely - it's a matter of perspective on valuation.

If you owned a business that was producing a million dollars profit a year and paying you $500k in dividends that went into your pocket you would consider that business to be your investment.
But you wouldn't get a valuation every week. You wouldn't think you were losing money just because this week's valuation was lower than last week's.
Yet you buy shares in a stock and you can put a value on that stock every day thanks to the market.
Just because the market price on the shares changes by the minute doesn't make that business worth less or more by the minute.

if the business makes profits and pays dividends, you can keep the stock and share in those profits and income.
You don't have to sell the shares to get something back from your investment.

Same as owning a property that generates an positive income.

If you buy something with the expectation that you will sell it at a higher price later, that is speculation.
Commodities, stocks in companies that lose money, even a negatively geared property that loses money, are all speculations.

 

[BeHereNow]

Can one 'invest' in the stock market?

Yes absolutely - it's a matter of perspective on valuation.

If you owned a business that was producing a million dollars profit a year and paying you $500k in dividends that went into your pocket you would consider that business to be your investment.
But you wouldn't get a valuation every week. You wouldn't think you were losing money just because this week's valuation was lower than last week's.
Yet you buy shares in a stock and you can put a value on that stock every day thanks to the market.
Just because the market price on the shares changes by the minute doesn't make that business worth less or more by the minute.

if the business makes profits and pays dividends, you can keep the stock and share in those profits and income.
You don't have to sell the shares to get something back from your investment.

Same as owning a property that generates an positive income.

If you buy something with the expectation that you will sell it at a higher price later, that is speculation.
Commodities, stocks in companies that lose money, even a negatively geared property that loses money, are all speculations.

Yes, a matter of perspective.
When 401k mutual funds were daily losing money, were monthly consuming not only principle, but new purchases as well, the prudent person might say they were speculating, not investing.

Unless of course they had hopes that that would reverse. Then it might be investment, that was simply daily losing money, like a fiat savings account.

As my reference from those in the financial world indicates- "In an economic sense, an investment is the purchase of goods that are not consumed today but are used in the future to create wealth." AKA, stacking.

 

[BeHereNow]

I don't think people are looking at this for the long term.. what will happen in 20-30 year's time? We had silver reserves and now they don't exist because it's in demand.. more silver is being used than mined.. with growing number's of population everyone will want a peice of something that will contain silver.. silver is now being used in clothing industry as well.. so how long can this metal last before it run's out or becomes so low in number's that some company's like apple will miss out on building computers etc etc 1999 we were using 100 million troy ounces of silver and now we are using over 350 million try ounces in 15 year's it has more than tripled, imagine 30 year's from now 500 million troy ounces? could that be our average use of silver in that time period?

This is one of those If all things remain equal...." situations.

If all things remain equal, the cost of acquiring silver from the dirt will exceed the cost of acquiring gold, many industrial uses of silver will continue to consume available reserves, gold will become valued less than silver, and leading up to that many stackers will be dumping gold to buy silver, based on the new SGR.

It seems obvious that the hand writing is on the wall for that to occur, if all things remain equal, which they seldom do.
Of course the time frame is much less clear, it may take 100 years, but it may be much less than that.

As for the SBSS video, one has to keep it in perspective, and remember it is produced by a salesman, selling a product.
Still contains much truth, but the information is biased. Most information is.