Question for the smarter ones

SilverSanchez

SilverSanchez

Active Member
All the talk of manipulation on the downside for Gold


Is it possible that the hardcore manipulation started on the upside, when gold should have corrected but 'took off' in Jan 10.

Has anyone read anything that would suggest this is a chance? I assume its harder to locate events of manipulation on the buy side
 
Apparently manipulation doesn't occur on the buy side - it is instead termed "finding true value". :P
 
Eh? I always thought it's possible.

Shouldn't be too hard to orchestrate a huge buy order no?
 
All 'they' had to do was cause a breakout, and the speculators did (or would do) the rest, then they raised the margin requirements and turned a bull market into a bear.

In order to hold it back, - you first push it too far
 
I think you can rule out long term manipulation...short term yes but for two and a half years......no freakin' way.

If you want to continually subscribe to this idea then get out of precious metals. Only a fool would play a game that is completely rigged. As you still are in the game, I would say that you are not completely convinced of the manipulation and from your informative posts I have read in the past, it is safe to say that you are certainly not a fool

A lot of convincing reports are continually circulating regarding bullion banks, central banks, etc etc. You must draw a line in the sand and choose what is most likely. Looking at the past price history of gold, I don't see anything but a market with boom and bust. Are the charts different to coffee, oil, copper, pork bellies, uranium????? No they are no different. So does it stand that these markets are continually manipulated?????? No way......

The shorting of gold is what provides the brakes as the gold price falls. This is what brings in the buyers when the gold price fall, the opposite end of a trade. This explains a lot about trends within a trend but what we are witnessing is a market trend.
What we have here is a slow downtrend. It is a trend plain and simple. When there are more sellers than buyers, this is what happens. It is the same as every market. Never forget that gold is only a market.
 
tolly_67 said:
If you want to continually subscribe to this idea then get out of precious metals. Only a fool would play a game that is completely rigged. As you still are in the game, I would say that you are not completely convinced of the manipulation ...
Click to expand...
+1
This should be a sticky.
Actually, I am stealing it for my new sig.
Cheers tolly... :D
 
the right person has been made to look like a fool, happen all the time.

in forex markets, the central banks call it intervention

in goods market, they put a price ceiling

in property market, lending libor

in the wind fall tax,

gst etc

what is there to argue that all markets are somehow manipulated except gold and silver?

in soccer, its a match fixing
 
Nobody is arguing that there is no manipulation......there is.......for short term gain only.
The individual wil more times than not look after themselves first with no thought as to the consequences.
So it is with markets.....see a chance, take it....with the big boys, they have the ability at times to create the chance but these opportunities can occur on a rising and falling trend. They don't have to go to all the trouble to 'make' the trend because even they know that this is impossible.
There is no shadow organisation plotting to rule the world with access to all financial instruments such that permanent manipulation is pre-planned for a desired outcome.
Just as there is no man in the North Pole making toys.............
 
people did believe that the world was flat for centuries, that was until re-proven again. it was just a blink of an eye ago :)
 
Very true...there are always periods of ignorance and inability to move past an idea.

Well before the time that people considered the world flat, astronomers had already calculated that the precession of the equinox...(the equinox occurs a little bit earlier each year during the Earths orbit around the sun). They had calculated it back to the age of Taurus...( we are now approaching..or are in...the age of Aquarius ).....This was 3 thousand years ago. So using the analogy of the flat earth is not fair to those who came before who would have known the Earth in fact orbited the sun.

So are the flat earthers those that believe that manipulation is the driver of markets or are they the ones that believe that they are only a part of the market?
 
manipulation of what?
of the price mechanism?
can't see any indications for that, unless you call the futures market forward price mechanism cheating since it alters already todays price.
the manipulation I see are the bogus stories going around, to trick people into willingness to pay prices that are driven up by buyers that sit on the lookout to quickly sell it again as soon as enough did buy the price higher.
It doesn't need smarter ones to realize that a sale (price downwards) requires a purchase earlier (price upwards).
There is nothing wrong with such temporary buying, but some out there are busy all day long to construct and spit out bogus stories about shortages price explosions jpmorgan/comex defaults/endless money creation+spending/daily trading volume comparison with amounts silver/subzero going of certain rates claimed of indicating shortages and more of that bullshit.
If you want a good summarization of this bullshit, register for those Ed Steer daily emails and visit Zerohedge/Silverdoctors/Seekingalpha/etc sites. Those make their profits based on losses of the people they misleaded / the Big Word 'Manipulated'..
 
SilverSanchez said:
All the talk of manipulation on the downside for Gold


Is it possible that the hardcore manipulation started on the upside, when gold should have corrected but 'took off' in Jan 10.

Has anyone read anything that would suggest this is a chance? I assume its harder to locate events of manipulation on the buy side
Click to expand...

If, as has been proven by admission that "they" can manipulate any and everything to do with the financial world then why not? Libor for example was thought to be nothing more than a conspiracy at one stage.
 
Manipulation is as old as the markets themselves. Research how China has stockpiled 6 years worth of domestically produced cotton in an attempt to push up cotton prices, similar to how Australia stockpiled wool in the '80's in an attempt to corner the wool market, and the list goes on and on.

Short term market manipulation happens regularly and constantly in every commodity, but smart manipulators work with the popular trend instead of trying to set trends like China and Australia which in the end usually causes a trend in the opposite direction as desired.

The price of oil is the largest manipulated market in the world, controlled by OPEC to ensure the best price for producers by controlling and manipulating production numbers, if oil was allowed to trade on the free market it would sell for much less.

Gold by its very nature as a non-consumable commodity has to be the most vulnerable market to manipulation of all, there is no reason for the price of gold to do anything but remain stable or decline slightly as the reserve supply of gold only ever rises. Gold is only bought, sold and hoarded, so is never subject to the event of unavailability due to lack of production, only nonavailability because it is being hoarded and not on the open market. So any significant gold trader can influence the gold market with a large buy or sell order.

Government policy and regulations can be the biggest contributor to manipulation and particularly long-term trends, as seen in the examples of Australia and the wool market and China and the cotton market.
 
I have always believed that if deflation gets bad enough (i.e. looking at Great Depression Mk II), then the central banks themselves will try and push up the price of gold and silver. Why? Because they need to get inflation going at any cost to avoid a downward spiral.

I think in the end, those forces that keep PM prices down may well be the ones to push it up.
Life's funny, that way.
 
You got me thinking Greenman....everything is the same....
These village idiots you are talking about are similar to trends within a trend.
It is inevitable to get dissenters in a post.....lots of them in fact...
There can be patches of dissenters in a post, which upon reading one of these patches, would lead the reader to believe that this is the common thought...however
Only upon reading the whole post does one get an idea as to how most contributors feel....positive, negative or neutral...
It is never about right and wrong.
The majority can be wrong and the dissenters could be right....it is irrelevant
The trend is the trend.....
 
Back to SilverSanchez original question...

If you diversify into other commodities, you will hear complaining and groaning about market manipulation pushing prices up, but by the very nature of the gold and silver markets you mostly hear complaints about market manipulation pushing prices down.

I would expect if you were in the right audience during the heady days when silver was north of $35USD an ounce, you would have heard all kinds of groaning and gnashing of teeth about the speculators manipulating the market price sky high. Imagine being the materials buyer for Fuji Film, Kodak, Foxconn, Dow Chemicals, etc and etc during that time. Needing tonnes of silver for manufacturing and production, you would have been pulling your hair out trying to keep costs from blowing out. And you would be more than happy to sit down over lunch with your fellow buyers from other large users to figure out a way to move the market back to realistic pricing. Manipulation and collusion with big hedge funds and banks would have been more than welcomed.

It depends on which side of the equation you find yourself depends when you believe that manipulation is most evident.
 
Over 2 years long the gold/silver prices sat above $1500/$30, being 15/30% above this years price.
Since the production cost now is about the same as then, that's all profit / money for nothing that filled some pockets.
It's then rather obvious that those pockets were of the manipulators jackets.
I paid on average $32 for an ounce silver. 2013's average is so far $24.5. That $7 now sits on somebody elses bank account / whatever. People talk alot about price differences, but this 'other side', the receiving end, is never talked about. And they certainly did not buy (as of yet) more silver with those profits, because otherwise the silver price wouldn't have dropped at all, it would have been just a silver ownership change.
So where is all the talk about those hefty profits (as much as the losses)? With all the complaints about manipulation and price suppression, the absence of the hurahs of the equally big profit side is telltaling.
 
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