Propaganda?

[iluvbeanz]

Ok mmissinglink, we agree with you. It's all propaganda and gimmicks. lol happy? I think you're preaching to the majority of us that already see through these jazzed label BS. In fact, some here even have strong opinions on the whole grading service all together as BS.

Where it does work is for those uninformed. Similar to how cash-for-gold places offering to buy your gold/silver at 70% spot, when you can go to a LCS and sell it for over spot, depending on specific premium or location.


Here is an example of a gimmick at its finest: http://www.ebay.com/itm/121148497826

First of all, you don't need to authenticate ASEs that slabbing would offer. They're extremely common, and there are hardly any fakes. Second, I hate feebay (although sometimes that's the only place to get things). Seeing a PCGS label that's dedicated to ebay brings negative values. And lastly, a grade on these common bullion is a joke. I can understand if it was a more rare proof collector edition that's graded, but not bullion. But yet, you can see exactly how many people bought those from the sold history (currently 600+ that prefer gimmicks).

 

[PeacePeople]

I see the first strike type labels as a total joke , unless I am mistaken and there is someone at the mint to verify they are indeed the first coins struck, and even at that it really wouldnt matter to me. As for the colored custom labels I personally find them annoying and distracting from the coins, i would pay about $10 more for a coin in the regular label since that is what it costs to have them reslabbed without the silly colored labels, I couldnt imagine someone paying more for the custom labels or "first strike' but thats just me.
The debate could go on forever about graded or not . I would agree it is pretty useless to get standard bullion such as ASEs or maples graded, but getting into modern Chinese coins espescially older ones there is a very high demand and premium on 69 and 70 coins in large part because there is getting less and less good quality coins available that are ungraded. Also the slabs offer much better preservation , most of the older Australian series 1 lunar silver coins i see that are not still in mint rolls have some toning , where as i have ngc slabbed aus. lunar coins graded years ago with no sign of toning whatsoever, it also makes it much easier to sell high premium coins with a specific grade from NGC or PCGS.

As far as these companies favoring large submitters over others , this is just pure speculation with no evidence and you can make up conspiricies all day long, I have submitted many many coins with NGC and some PCGS and have for the most part felt they were fairly graded. Having said that though I have bought several coins from large companies with mass submissions that were supposed to be 70s with white spots and problems so i can see how some might come to the conclusion that they are favoring these companies but there is really no proof . As for the white spots I think some of these large companies rush to get them mass graded and the spots develop after grading since sometimes it takes some time for them to develop and in this case the "first strike" or first graded is actually a detriment instead of an enhancement. Thats my 2 cents , which is about what its worth....

You are 100% wrong with this statement. I was told first hand by an auction company that if I were to submit my 10 sets of 2013W silver eagle sets through their bulk submit program with PCGS, the pricing was set by PCGS at $10 per 69 coin and $30 per 70 coin. It's not speculation, it's reality.

 

[mmissinglink]

mtforpar,

You can believe all you want something that isn't true....that's your choice. But the fact is, by your own admissions and omissions, you embrace the "sell anything to make a buck" ideology.




.

 

[mmissinglink]

iluvbeans,

I partly agree with you. Where I disagree is that I don't believe a graded silver American Eagle is a gimmick at all.

First of all, high quality fake ASE's are being produced in China. Secondly, there nothing gimmicky about people wanting a coin that is in pristine condition especially since many bullion coins are known to come from the mints in far less than pristine condition. Of course, during some years, a mint may produce better quality and during other years for the same coin, better quality. That's what many collectors are after when they buy graded modern ASE's. Third, most experienced collectors are actually very poor at objectively grading coins.

I find that there's nothing gimmicky with a modern graded ASE.

To me, what would be a gimmick is something like a "specialty" label that is intended to mislead people into believing something that isn't true.

 

[PeacePeople]

mtforpar,

You can believe all you want something that isn't true....that's your choice. But the fact is, by your own admissions and omissions, you embrace the "sell anything to make a buck" ideology.




.

You couldn't possibly have read what he wrote and still inferred this nonsense. He basically told you that he studies the market, figures out what niche is available to him to fill and he fills it. If there is something wrong with filling that void and making money doing so, then you live in a fantasy world.

 

[Bobby Woodlawn]

From APMEX ebay:

2014 Silver American Eagle - 20 Coin MintDirect Premier Tube-San Francisco Mint
An opportunity for the best quality: MintDirect Premier
Available from the U.S. Mint for now, but they will be sold on a limited basis. Order yours from APMEX today while we still have them! January of every year, the United States Mint is required to deliver coins that carry the date of the new year. Accordingly, the dies used to strike the coins from the prior year are destroyed and new dies are engraved, prepared and deployed to strike the coins for the new year.

Because the coin dies wear down over thousands of strikes, the detail of the engraved die that transfers to the newly struck coin begins to flatten, and the quality of the finished coin diminishes below standards. At this point, the dies are replaced. For each minting press, new dies may be required multiple times each year. Once the new dies are installed, the strike quality (the detail transferred to the newly struck coin) returns to its maximum. There is no public notice that dies are changed, and each minting press changes dies at different times required by die wear.

Because each new year brings new dies, APMEX has designated all MintDirect products delivered by the U.S. Mint in January of each year as MintDirect Premier. Each MintDirect Premier tube is an unopened, sealed original Mint tube that displays an individually numbered label designating the coins as Premier. MintDirect Premier is a proprietary designation which may not be recognized by external grading services. APMEX will only have a limited number of MintDirect Premier products each year.

All MintDirect products delivered in any month other than January will carry the usual MintDirect label designating that the original U.S. Mint tube has not been opened since the coins were packaged at the Mint and accordingly are unsearched and unsorted. MintDirect is a process exclusive to APMEX that guarantees these 2013 Silver Eagles come directly from the San Francisco Mint and have remained unopened. -bw

 

[mmissinglink]

Thanks for the info Bobby

 

[silverstar1]

Hmmm, let me make sure I am understanding you correctly, are you saying that if I submit say 100 10 y year 2000 silver pandas to pcgs and say I will take all of them graded in ms 70 for $30 each please, they will comply no problem and I get my 100 ms 70 pandas?? I find that very hard to believe and I have a feeling if I called pcgs and asked for this service they would certainly say that they would actually have to grade them regardless of the fact that you heard it "first hand by an auction company" . Or are you saying IF they deem it worthy of a ms 70 then its $30 and IF they deem it a ms 69 then its $10 , that would still seem a little odd but a whole different thing than Guaranteeing a certain grade for a higher price. Please elaborate on this. Thanks

I see the first strike type labels as a total joke , unless I am mistaken and there is someone at the mint to verify they are indeed the first coins struck, and even at that it really wouldnt matter to me. As for the colored custom labels I personally find them annoying and distracting from the coins, i would pay about $10 more for a coin in the regular label since that is what it costs to have them reslabbed without the silly colored labels, I couldnt imagine someone paying more for the custom labels or "first strike' but thats just me.
The debate could go on forever about graded or not . I would agree it is pretty useless to get standard bullion such as ASEs or maples graded, but getting into modern Chinese coins espescially older ones there is a very high demand and premium on 69 and 70 coins in large part because there is getting less and less good quality coins available that are ungraded. Also the slabs offer much better preservation , most of the older Australian series 1 lunar silver coins i see that are not still in mint rolls have some toning , where as i have ngc slabbed aus. lunar coins graded years ago with no sign of toning whatsoever, it also makes it much easier to sell high premium coins with a specific grade from NGC or PCGS.

As far as these companies favoring large submitters over others , this is just pure speculation with no evidence and you can make up conspiricies all day long, I have submitted many many coins with NGC and some PCGS and have for the most part felt they were fairly graded. Having said that though I have bought several coins from large companies with mass submissions that were supposed to be 70s with white spots and problems so i can see how some might come to the conclusion that they are favoring these companies but there is really no proof . As for the white spots I think some of these large companies rush to get them mass graded and the spots develop after grading since sometimes it takes some time for them to develop and in this case the "first strike" or first graded is actually a detriment instead of an enhancement. Thats my 2 cents , which is about what its worth....

You are 100% wrong with this statement. I was told first hand by an auction company that if I were to submit my 10 sets of 2013W silver eagle sets through their bulk submit program with PCGS, the pricing was set by PCGS at $10 per 69 coin and $30 per 70 coin. It's not speculation, it's reality.

 

[barsenault]

mtforpar,

You can believe all you want something that isn't true....that's your choice. But the fact is, by your own admissions and omissions, you embrace the "sell anything to make a buck" ideology.

.

You couldn't possibly have read what he wrote and still inferred this nonsense. He basically told you that he studies the market, figures out what niche is available to him to fill and he fills it. If there is something wrong with filling that void and making money doing so, then you live in a fantasy world.

That's an absurd conclusion you draw....but I'm not surprised coming from you. If you bothered reading what he'd written and didn't write, and cared to apply logic to it, then you wouldn't have the opinion you expressed. Clearly, you chose not to apply any logic.

let's have peace people. lol.

 

[PeacePeople]

Hmmm, let me make sure I am understanding you correctly, are you saying that if I submit say 100 10 y year 2000 silver pandas to pcgs and say I will take all of them graded in ms 70 for $30 each please, they will comply no problem and I get my 100 ms 70 pandas?? I find that very hard to believe and I have a feeling if I called pcgs and asked for this service they would certainly say that they would actually have to grade them regardless of the fact that you heard it "first hand by an auction company" . Or are you saying IF they deem it worthy of a ms 70 then its $30 and IF they deem it a ms 69 then its $10 , that would still seem a little odd but a whole different thing than Guaranteeing a certain grade for a higher price. Please elaborate on this. Thanks

They weren't guarantying any grade, they were just going to charge more for the higher grade. I'd speculate that their thinking was since the submitters knew they'd get more money for the 70's on the sale, they'd be willing to pay more for coins that graded 70. Now, I'm not saying that it'd be easier to get a 70 if you submit in bulk, but it sure seems like it's a conflict on their part by making you pay more for the higher grade.

If you read on their bulk submissions guidelines, you can ask for anything less than a 69 to be rejected and not slabbed, that is the minimum you must accept on a bulk submission, so no, you cannot ask that they all be graded 70 and you'll pay more.

 

[PeacePeople]

You couldn't possibly have read what he wrote and still inferred this nonsense. He basically told you that he studies the market, figures out what niche is available to him to fill and he fills it. If there is something wrong with filling that void and making money doing so, then you live in a fantasy world.

That's an absurd conclusion you draw....but I'm not surprised coming from you. If you bothered reading what he'd written and didn't write, and cared to apply logic to it, then you wouldn't have the opinion you expressed. Clearly, you chose not to apply any logic.

let's have peace people. lol.

Honestly, he's not worth my time. He spins more trash up than a garbage disposal just to argue.

I'll tell you that I've dealt with mtforpar on numerous occasions and he has been stand up from start to finish on every deal. He is also intelligent enough to realize that there are ways to make money without being a scheister, something some people just don't understand. He understands the market and profits from it, it's called capitalism, something some people just don't understand. Usually guys that take brillo pads to rare medals and the like.

 

[silverstar1]

Hmmm, let me make sure I am understanding you correctly, are you saying that if I submit say 100 10 y year 2000 silver pandas to pcgs and say I will take all of them graded in ms 70 for $30 each please, they will comply no problem and I get my 100 ms 70 pandas?? I find that very hard to believe and I have a feeling if I called pcgs and asked for this service they would certainly say that they would actually have to grade them regardless of the fact that you heard it "first hand by an auction company" . Or are you saying IF they deem it worthy of a ms 70 then its $30 and IF they deem it a ms 69 then its $10 , that would still seem a little odd but a whole different thing than Guaranteeing a certain grade for a higher price. Please elaborate on this. Thanks

They weren't guarantying any grade, they were just going to charge more for the higher grade. I'd speculate that their thinking was since the submitters knew they'd get more money for the 70's on the sale, they'd be willing to pay more for coins that graded 70. Now, I'm not saying that it'd be easier to get a 70 if you submit in bulk, but it sure seems like it's a conflict on their part by making you pay more for the higher grade.

If you read on their bulk submissions guidelines, you can ask for anything less than a 69 to be rejected and not slabbed, that is the minimum you must accept on a bulk submission, so no, you cannot ask that they all be graded 70 and you'll pay more.

OK I understand , the only thing I could figure is they are accepting more liability so they charge the premium , but I could see how it might be looked at in other ways. The bottom line I think on the top grading companies , if there was proof of guaranteeing a certain grade for extra money I think they should be called out on that . But with no proof I think its best to assume they are what they say they are , unbiased coin grading and encapsulation services...
of course they are only human too..

 

[mmissinglink]

silverstar, TPG companies are made up of people like you and I but they also would be risking a lot to basically guarantee a grade in exchange for payment. They would forgo that risk I believe....they are making plenty of money without needing to resort to such things.

 

[silverstar1]

silverstar, TPG companies are made up of people like you and I but they also would be risking a lot to basically guarantee a grade in exchange for payment. They would forgo that risk I believe....they are making plenty of money without needing to resort to such things.

I agree , they would not have the reputations they have without the up most integrity for the most part.. But the bigger you get the bigger the claws scratching at you!
I still dont like the silly colored labels but to each their own, and I have plenty of them>>LOL

 

[db23]

silverstar, TPG companies are made up of people like you and I but they also would be risking a lot to basically guarantee a grade in exchange for payment. They would forgo that risk I believe....they are making plenty of money without needing to resort to such things.

I agree , they would not have the reputations they have without the up most integrity for the most part..

Which way to the koolaid? Possibly the silliest comment I've seen in this entire thread. People were saying the same thing about Madoff before 2008...

 

[silverstar1]

silverstar, TPG companies are made up of people like you and I but they also would be risking a lot to basically guarantee a grade in exchange for payment. They would forgo that risk I believe....they are making plenty of money without needing to resort to such things.

I agree , they would not have the reputations they have without the up most integrity for the most part..

Which way to the koolaid? Possibly the silliest comment I've seen in this entire thread. People were saying the same thing about Madoff before 2008...

Thankyou , Thankyou , for some reason this makes me laugh , Crazy day here..
if I had to pick a screenname I might call it..
Der Blutharsch 23

 

[mmissinglink]

silverstar, TPG companies are made up of people like you and I but they also would be risking a lot to basically guarantee a grade in exchange for payment. They would forgo that risk I believe....they are making plenty of money without needing to resort to such things.

I agree , they would not have the reputations they have without the up most integrity for the most part.. But the bigger you get the bigger the claws scratching at you!
I still dont like the silly colored labels but to each their own, and I have plenty of them>>LOL

That someone would not object to such duplicitous labels convinces me that such a person has little to no integrity. It's really no different than if hypothetically a company was putting into the beverage market bottled water that had a label claiming it's "artesian spring water" when in reality the water in that bottle actually came from a large municipal water reservoir. Then comes along an individual/dealer who knows that the label is completely deceptive and misleading and who expresses no contempt for the application of the intentionally deceptive label stating instead something like "I put my efforts into finding ways to prosper within the market" and "Do I want to be right? OR Do I want to prosper under current conditions?" It is behavior such as this that is most disturbing and even dangerous in my view because it is part of the problem in this beverage market.

On a separate note, I used to think that a TPG company would benefit more than their competitor if they gave higher grades to the same coin than would their competitor. But I don't believe that anymore. In the end, an honest, expert grading company will be the one that gets my money.



.

 

[silverstar1]

I like the water analogy , Artesian spring Water = treated sewage water , City Tap..

 

[mtforpar]

silverstar, TPG companies are made up of people like you and I but they also would be risking a lot to basically guarantee a grade in exchange for payment. They would forgo that risk I believe....they are making plenty of money without needing to resort to such things.

I agree , they would not have the reputations they have without the up most integrity for the most part.. But the bigger you get the bigger the claws scratching at you!
I still dont like the silly colored labels but to each their own, and I have plenty of them>>LOL

That someone would not object to such duplicitous labels convinces me that such a person has little to no integrity. It's really no different than if hypothetically a company was putting into the beverage market bottled water that had a label claiming it's "artesian spring water" when in reality the water in that bottle actually came from a large municipal water reservoir. Then comes along an individual/dealer who knows that the label is completely deceptive and misleading and who expresses no contempt for the application of the intentionally deceptive label stating instead something like "I put my efforts into finding ways to prosper within the market" and "Do I want to be right? OR Do I want to prosper under current conditions?" It is behavior such as this that is most disturbing and even dangerous in my view because it is part of the problem in this beverage market.

On a separate note, I used to think that a TPG company would benefit more than their competitor if they gave higher grades to the same coin than would their competitor. But I don't believe that anymore. In the end, an honest, expert grading company will be the one that gets my money.



.

Obviously you are young and inexperienced as your thought process is not fully mature yet. In addition, you are either unwilling or unable to read what I wrote and understand it correctly. I was not discussing sewer water.....you are. My comments have nothing to do with that subject. Taking comments about labels and attributing them to sewer is behavior that is most disturbing and even dangerous in my view. It is yet another example of disingenuous methods of supporting a conclusion instead of reading and understanding what was written.

Even using your own analogy it is much more similar to the spring water company putting a label on the bottle that said "Last Rains" or "First Well Accumulations" where we all found out that all the water goes into the same pool and there is no way to verify it was from the Last Rain. The water is pure and of top quality but the marketing was somewhat silly and implying that the last rain water is better when we all know it is really the same thing.

Is there something unclear about my Position on First Strike labels which I clarified for you?

You can say anything you want but please stop misapplying my words and challenging my ethics.

 

[mmissinglink]

mtforpar,


you attacked me for my direct question to you on 4/30/2014 12:45:09 This was my question: "So, mtforpar, do you draw the line for your "anything to make a buck" ideology or not?" The reason why my question was perfectly valid and in line was because of your own admissions and omissions (not a single denouncement of deceptive or gimmick labels which are intentionally designed to mislead collectors into believing that some "special pink" label or a printed simulated signature of a famous person label is adding real value to the coin inside the holder. You expressed not a single opposition or condemnation of such labels before you attacked me. You were absolutely in the wrong to do this. The comments I made after this were largely an extension of this fact.


You were absolutely wrong to attack me. I used your own words. I took your admissions and omissions in the context of the main subject of this thread. You are the one who is confusing your own insinuations.

The bottled water analogy that I used is a very good analogy because it points out what I see as unethical behavior (the support of known deceptive labeling). That support can be shown through the quotes I used (which of course are your exact words) and the lack of condemnation (purposeful omission) by you of known deceptive labeling at the time I had asked that pointed question of you.

Again, it is precisely your own admissions and omissions that I have used to make my case and the best you have to refute my points is "you are young and inexperienced as your thought process is not fully mature yet".

You are only fooling yourself or someone who is not objectively honest or not paying close attention to the context of the thread and your own position within it.

It's clear to me that the members here that have shown strong disapproval or denounced deceptive or gimmick labels have integrity when it comes to the market. I doubt very much that these members would be okay with not showing disapproval if given an opportunity (in a place with people who drink water connect) of a label on a bottle of water which is knowingly misleading. And these same folks of integrity tend to show strong disapproval of intentionally deceptive and/or gimmicky labels in the market of coins and medals.

As for "First Release" or similar dishonest or gimmicky phrases on graded coin labels, if you are going to try to convince me that you don't realize that this phrase on the label isn't designed to imply that these coins are first struck coins, then you ought to know that I'm not convinced. If you honestly are that ignorant about the intention of the TPG companies plastering those terms on their labels, then all you have to do is a Google search on the subject and read, read, read. These gimmicky phrases are indeed designed to get unsuspecting collectors to think that the coins within are the first struck. Obviously, there would be no other reason to add such a phrase as coins that are later struck are known to be struck with dies that have some amount of wear and therefore the strike is not as desirable to discerning collectors. There's no other sensible reason to use terms like "First Release" and "First Strike" on a label which is designed to indicate the quality of the coin inside the holder.

I'm giving you another opportunity to express whether or not you disapprove or condemn these sorts of deceptive labeling or not because you have not shown a clear pattern of disapproval here. I'm not asking you to disapprove....I'm asking you to say unambiguously if you disapprove of these gimmicky and deceptive labels. Where your integrity is in my view will be shown in your answer.