Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

[SpacePete]

...

- BUT public forums are the wrong place to shame (or levy blame) that is not the fault of the mint, dealer, or seller. For example, bullion coins are not intended to be blemish-free and are sold as an investment vehicle....not as a collector vehicle. That certain bullion coins in the past have been utilized in the aftermarket as a collectable coin doesn't change the fact that the mint is pricing and selling them as bullion.

Milk spots are very likely an issue with manufacturing so I can't see how it is not valid to discuss the mint as the source of this issue.

No one expects bullion coins to be pristine in most cases. Minor dings and scratches are perfectly ok. But if you do happen to have a graded pristine bullion coin that goes on to develop milk spots, especial when multiple people start to experience it when it never happened as frequently before, then it's perfectly valid to discuss on a forum.

Let me repeat -- no one expects bullion coins to be pristine in most cases, consistent minor dings and scratches are accepted.

 

[Ronnie 666]

What is really disturbing is the PM attitude. Over a year ago the Perth Mint came out with these statements that they were investigating the milk spot problem and had scanning electron micrographs of the spots. They said it was a particulate problem and they were updating their water filters or some other nonsense. We know that milk spots occur early in production with the manufacture of the planchet. People postulate its a detergent or lubricant that is not removed and fixed to the surface during heat drying.

Nothing further was said or done and the problem got worse. Clearly the PM or its staff (I know some on this forum) read these posts. Why dont they respond ? because a response will indicate there is a problem. They will not admit there is a problem, not only on the bullion coins but on all the silver coins including the proof sets. I have a HR proof coin that has milk spots and I have sent it to PCGS for restoration. I did not send it for any monetary gain but to see what they report and do. The longer the PM fail to acknowledge this issue the more customers flee and while sales of bullion are up I get the feeling that coin sales are not. It would be nice to hear some reply from the mint but don't hold your breath.

 

[Jislizard]

Fortunately I haven't come across any as far back as 2012 when I bought all the Dragons, I will go back and have a look anyway.

I gave up collecting series a long time ago, No matter how good the dragons were I can't get excited about chickens, pigs or mice.

I was getting some Perth Mint products as gifts, Kookaburras mostly, but now I have switched to other mints. I no longer buy the rolls of coins as an investment. I did panic and get some Kookaburras because I was after a last minute gift, they are ok at the moment so I can still give them.

I did get the 2016 Perth Mint Kangaroo and the 2015 Perth Mint Kangaroo because of the whole "First in the new series" fiasco surrounding those two coins but the 2016 coins are all stained so although it is a good illustration about how the mint treats its customers it is not a series I have any interest in continuing.

As you say, they are just bullion coins so I will buy them elsewhere and not have the low quality.

 

[Holdfast]

Post images of milk-spotted 2017 coins from Perth.

Individual folk have no voice with Perth.

You do have a voice with Dealers but the Dealers have no voice with Perth otherwise their allocations get thrown in the bin.

If The Perth Mint was a listed company, fully owned by shareholders, the CEO would be sacked, as would the Board Of Directors.

Management are supposed to provide outcomes by providing the "means" to fix problems with a particular product (Milk-spotted coins)

Sales would go through the roof if "The Management" at Perth could guarantee decent spot free coins.

Come on CEO of The Perth Mint, show some leadership; allocate the funds to fix the problem on "Your-Shift"!

 

[Jislizard]

I will check my coins, I know some of them have got them and I have some spare time on my hands, not sure how GoldPelican would feel about his forum having a dedicated thread to dissing the Perth Mint but it might at least make them take notice.

I was only buying a roll of Lunars, 2x Koalas and 2 x Kookaburras each year but I was starting to put aside a tube of the 1/2 oz offerings and a tube of anything else that looked like it could be interesting. I have since stopped that but I don't think it has had an impact on Perth Mint.

It has probably had a small barely noticeable impact on GoldStackers where I was buying all my coins, I didn't switch to buying alternatives, I just stopped buying silver coins and switched to low premium silver bars instead but not at the same volume.

 

[mmissinglink]

...

- BUT public forums are the wrong place to shame (or levy blame) that is not the fault of the mint, dealer, or seller. For example, bullion coins are not intended to be blemish-free and are sold as an investment vehicle....not as a collector vehicle. That certain bullion coins in the past have been utilized in the aftermarket as a collectable coin doesn't change the fact that the mint is pricing and selling them as bullion.

Milk spots are very likely an issue with manufacturing so I can't see how it is not valid to discuss the mint as the source of this issue.

No one expects bullion coins to be pristine in most cases. Minor dings and scratches are perfectly ok. But if you do happen to have a graded pristine bullion coin that goes on to develop milk spots, especial when multiple people start to experience it when it never happened as frequently before, then it's perfectly valid to discuss on a forum.

Let me repeat -- no one expects bullion coins to be pristine in most cases, consistent minor dings and scratches are accepted.

Devil's Advocate: So what that the mint's manufacturing process (sometimes/often) results in milk spots on bullion coins? They are designed to be bullion, not collector coins, right? The mint makes no claims as per future increased collector premiums. As for your purely subjective perception about "minor" is okay.....says who? Who gets to determine what is and what isn't "minor" and what is and what isn't "accepted"? No one is forcing you to buy bullion. And you already know that the mint makes no claims as to them preventing the development of milk spots over time.


Don't like the quality and the complaining hasn't changed how the mint produces bullion? Then don't support the product.

There's plenty of products that I refuse to buy because of the poor quality. Why aren't you doing the same?

Don't shoot the messenger....just get real.



.

 

[Ronnie 666]

Missinglink - firstly milk spots are not only on bullion coins but on all silver Perth Mint products. I have illustrated a proof 5oz coin. I have seen multiple proofs with milk spots and unfortunately own a few. Since when is a proof coin bullion - tell the ATO that please as we pay GST.

Secondly these spots are often not obvious when first minted and grow and develop over time. Difficult to avoid them except by refusing to buy any PM silver coins. My idea of shining a torch at an angle does reveal the early spots especially on shiny areas like the queens head. It is not a foolproof method. The only foolproof method is don't buy any Perth Mint silver coins in that regard you are right.

 

[RichB]

Could someone please tell me if they have had these issues with Royal Mint bullion coins?....as I would like to purchase Royal Mint 2oz Queens Beast bullion coins...
Thanyou

 

[bron.suchecki]

I think it's poor show and in the future there are going to be very disappointed SS who find their apparently mint PM coins covered in white spots. Premiums will vanish as will support for the PM.

These spots have been happening for years now, why is it taking so long for premiums and support to vanish?

renovator has the right answer: "people need to vote with their wallet"

Doesn't seem like people are voting with their wallet, see chart below

For example, bullion coins are not intended to be blemish-free and are sold as an investment vehicle....not as a collector vehicle. That certain bullion coins in the past have been utilized in the aftermarket as a collectable coin doesn't change the fact that the mint is pricing and selling them as bullion.

Maybe a fair comment on other mint's true bullion, but the Perth Mint has marketed many of its bullion coins as semi-collector (mirror finishes, limited mintage) with higher premium, but not same premium as proof. A grey area and it seems like we have a split in the market where some buyers see them as collector and want corresponding and others see them as bullion and so don't care. As per my comments above, I'd say the majority of buyers of these coins are in the latter group.

mint has no obligation to oblige your expectations which are based on past production of similar coins or future valuation of these coins.

Well past production of the semi-collector bullion coins were blemish free, so reasonable to expect that would continue.

If The Perth Mint was a listed company, fully owned by shareholders, the CEO would be sacked, as would the Board Of Directors.

If anything, it would be worse IMO. It seems pretty clear to me that sales have not been impacted, so the Mint whether public or privately owned is not getting any hit to their wallet so continues on.

I think this shows that those that view these coins as semi-collector and expect better quality are outnumbered by those that don't care. Result is frustration by those that, which is frustration not just at the Mint but really also at those people who continue to buy the coins.

I didn't switch to buying alternatives, I just stopped buying silver coins and switched to low premium silver bars instead but not at the same volume.

I don't understand why anyone buys coins, whether blemish or blemish free. Just looking at Mint's website 500 1oz are $25.56 compared to 100oz bars at $23.52 per oz. That is paying a 8.7% premium to get coins. If you don't believe that the world is going to end and you need coins as money, why are those who don't care about milk spot quality (and thus not expecting secondary market premium increase) are willing to pay 8.7% more?

 

[Ronnie 666]

I think it's poor show and in the future there are going to be very disappointed SS who find their apparently mint PM coins covered in white spots. Premiums will vanish as will support for the PM.

These spots have been happening for years now, why is it taking so long for premiums and support to vanish?


Bron have you looked at the prices of the PM coins since 2012 - not getting much of a premium !

Prices are low and most are hoarding their coins as prices move up and people break open their rolls of 1oz coins to sell that will be interesting.

Takes time for these spots to develop

renovator has the right answer: "people need to vote with their wallet"

Doesn't seem like people are voting with their wallet, see chart below


Stupidity is no reason to be complacent - If people are stupid and buy PM silver coins - good luck to them when they sell.
Lots of people bought property in 2007

For example, bullion coins are not intended to be blemish-free and are sold as an investment vehicle....not as a collector vehicle. That certain bullion coins in the past have been utilized in the aftermarket as a collectable coin doesn't change the fact that the mint is pricing and selling them as bullion.

Maybe a fair comment on other mint's true bullion, but the Perth Mint has marketed many of its bullion coins as semi-collector (mirror finishes, limited mintage) with higher premium, but not same premium as proof. A grey area and it seems like we have a split in the market where some buyers see them as collector and want corresponding and others see them as bullion and so don't care. As per my comments above, I'd say the majority of buyers of these coins are in the latter group.

mint has no obligation to oblige your expectations which are based on past production of similar coins or future valuation of these coins.

Well past production of the semi-collector bullion coins were blemish free, so reasonable to expect that would continue.

As someone who bought perfect Series 1 lunars from the PM - I can tell you this is not continuing !!

If The Perth Mint was a listed company, fully owned by shareholders, the CEO would be sacked, as would the Board Of Directors.

If anything, it would be worse IMO. It seems pretty clear to me that sales have not been impacted, so the Mint whether public or privately owned is not getting any hit to their wallet so continues on.

http://forums.silverstackers.com/uploads/25160_perthmintcoinsales.png

I think this shows that those that view these coins as semi-collector and expect better quality are outnumbered by those that don't care. Result is frustration by those that, which is frustration not just at the Mint but really also at those people who continue to buy the coins.

I didn't switch to buying alternatives, I just stopped buying silver coins and switched to low premium silver bars instead but not at the same volume.

I don't understand why anyone buys coins, whether blemish or blemish free. Just looking at Mint's website 500 1oz are $25.56 compared to 100oz bars at $23.52 per oz. That is paying a 8.7% premium to get coins. If you don't believe that the world is going to end and you need coins as money, why are those who don't care about milk spot quality (and thus not expecting secondary market premium increase) are willing to pay 8.7% more?

Is that an excuse for producing an inferior product ?

 

[Ipv6Ready]

I didn't switch to buying alternatives, I just stopped buying silver coins and switched to low premium silver bars instead but not at the same volume.

I don't understand why anyone buys coins, whether blemish or blemish free. Just looking at Mint's website 500 1oz are $25.56 compared to 100oz bars at $23.52 per oz. That is paying a 8.7% premium to get coins. If you don't believe that the world is going to end and you need coins as money, why are those who don't care about milk spot quality (and thus not expecting secondary market premium increase) are willing to pay 8.7% more?

The way I see it Milk spotting and toning affects people in different in ways depending where they slot in the below three categories. But also many straddle two or even three of the categories.

Collectors -> A tiny tiny percentage of buyers
Physical Traders/Flipper/Hobbyist-> a small percentage overall PM market but a very large percentage of members in this forum
Investors/Dooms dayers/Paper Traders-> Biggest buyers in PM market and they dont care, so likely to buy low premium.

(this is to anyone) Also what happens to milk spots in 50 or 100 years do the "milk spots" tone, so it become just like any toned coin?

 

[bron.suchecki]

Not making excuses, I don't have to anymore. My point is the ultimately signal for a producer of stuff is sales, so if people continue to buy it at whatever quality they will continue to produce it and there is no pressure to change.

 

[Holdfast]

Not making excuses, I don't have to anymore. My point is the ultimately signal for a producer of stuff is sales, so if people continue to buy it at whatever quality they will continue to produce it and there is no pressure to change.

Surely a company wants to improve sales and their reputation.

Most CEO's would try to increase productivity.

Bron, if you were CEO what would you do? Have your company increase sales due to a good reputation or let the company name erode?

 

[bron.suchecki]

I'm not CEO material so what I'd do is academic. What a company wants to do is maximise profit and what will maximise is not always clear. You are assuming that fixing white spot will increase sales. Here is the corporate thinking: if sales, currently, seem OK then why risk adding to production costs to fix white spot if sales don't increase enough to cover that cost? People keep buying them, and buying other Mint's coins with same problem, so is this really a problem. There may be some risk in future that as people break open rolls they get angry and stop buying, by which time it is too late to turn around reputation, but that is a maybe risk and off in the future so if sales look OK now why risk reducing profitability now? If people are still buying them then this can only mean:

1. People are aware and don't care
2. People aren't aware and become aware in the future, but won't care
3. People aren't aware and become aware in the future, and will care
4. As people are still buying our coins this is not a real widespread problem and just small amount of production affected and so only a few complainers

Hmm, only 3 is a real problem to profit, really hard to work out which is true so just keep on doing what we are doing.

 

[Ronnie 666]

Bron as an ex Perth Mint employee your comments leave me scratching my head. I have to hold my standards to a higher level as in my business we cant simply ignore a major flaw or imperfection hoping no one will notice or care. You can fudge over the bullion coins but what about the proof coins ? Hopefully posts like this will draw attention to these inferior products.

I clearly remember these issues being raised when you were employed by the mint and at that time you dodged the issue by saying production was not your department. I never found out who was ultimately responsible for production but it wasn't you or Ed Harbuz.

Bron it takes some time to destroy a good reputation - but it will be destroyed - ask Bill Clinton.

 

[SpacePete]

Lot's of tired old excuses for manufacturing crap. Sure, there are people who will buy crap when their choices are limited, but it sours the market and is a poor long-term strategy.

 

[mmissinglink]

Missinglink - firstly milk spots are not only on bullion coins but on all silver Perth Mint products. I have illustrated a proof 5oz coin. I have seen multiple proofs with milk spots and unfortunately own a few. Since when is a proof coin bullion - tell the ATO that please as we pay GST.

Secondly these spots are often not obvious when first minted and grow and develop over time. Difficult to avoid them except by refusing to buy any PM silver coins. My idea of shining a torch at an angle does reveal the early spots especially on shiny areas like the queens head. It is not a foolproof method. The only foolproof method is don't buy any Perth Mint silver coins in that regard you are right.

You are misinterpreting what I've written.

I never claimed that some proof coins might or will not develop milk spots and I never claimed that proof coins are bullion.

From what I have heard or read, the planchets for collector coins and bullion coins go through the same wash cycles but apparently, collector coins are additionally rinsed or treated and therefore are much less likely prone to milk spots. But that in no way means that a mint will guarantee that a coin doesn't develop such spots.

To add to what Bron stated,

but the Perth Mint has marketed many of its bullion coins as semi-collector (mirror finishes, limited mintage) with higher premium, but not same premium as proof. A grey area and it seems like we have a split in the market where some buyers see them as collector and want corresponding and others see them as bullion and so don't care.

I think this is a good and perhaps understated, important point. As the lines have already blurred somewhat between "bullion" and "collector" coin, to me it only strengthens my argument that if you do not like a product because of subjectively "inferior" quality, then don't buy it.....period.


As for Bron's argument that there's a reasonable expectation that coins in a series (even a 12 year or more long series) should be of the same quality, that may certainly be true from the perspective of the collector or flipper, but from the perspective of the investor/doomsdayer and the mint....not necessarily so. Who gets to determine what the quality should be? Ultimately, the mint because they are the producer and if they don't see an economic incentive to change the way they produce, it is the mint that gets to decide how to proceed. If they do see an economic incentive to change the way they produce, it is still the mint that gets to decide how to handle their production.



As an aside, when I first started stacking in 2012, the first bullion silver coin that I ever purchased more than just a couple at a time were the 2008 Lunar S2 Mouse 1 oz silver bullion coins. I still have a couple of sealed rolls and loosies that I haven't sold and the last time I checked, there were no spots (but of course with the rolls I can only see two sides from each roll). Even on the loosies, I see no milk spots. Did I get lucky or are most 2008 Mouse's still milk spot free? I don't know. I haven't purchased rolls of any other PM bullion coin since then because my purchasing tastes have since changed somewhat and I've moved more into low(er) mintage coins, medals, rounds, and even vintage silver art bars to a large extent.



I'm buying what I like (even if the premiums are higher) and if it's true that many of the mints are producing silver bullion coins today which have a higher proclivity to milk than coins produced just a few years ago, then I can say that I am the better for not buying silver bullion coins to the extent that I used to. My money is going toward supporting products that I feel are well made and if the market is not favorable to selling any of these items I've purchased, in the very least, I am holding products that (to a greater degree) I can actually enjoy marveling at without cringing at the thought that my bullion coins (which are priced somewhere between the price of a blob and a collector coin) are worth only melt because they have milk spots on them.



.

 

[SpacePete]

Bron is simply echoing the safe professionally-correct justifications... the same type of PC constraint that leads professionals to confidently state BREXIT won't happen and Trump will never be elected. It's a form of peer group blindness that you break from at your peril.

 

[bron.suchecki]

Ronnie 666 and SpacePete, my comments are not justifying the Mint's actions or saying that's what I think. You're asking "why aren't they doing anything" and I'm just trying to give you an insight into safe corporaty thinking. It may be wrong, have long term future implications, but whatever it is, it doesn't leave me "scratching my head" nor I'd guess anyone who has worked in a big corporation.

 

[Gatito Bandito]

Bron, would you happen to have a chart that backs out those crappy low-premium Kangaroos which came out in September of 2015 -- and doesn't skew the data?


Anyway, the first photo below is not mine. It was actually on eBay here in the US a while back. Final price was a smidge above spot, maybe? Pun not intended, of course.

Check out all the activity *below* the queen, too. Difficult to tell in the pic where it begins/ends, but it appears to go at least from "999" thru at least the middle of "DOLLARS"

That's no milk-spot... That's a milk-SPILL!

3. The numerous scratches and scuffs that adorned the coin surface

So much attention on the milk-spotting, that we couldn't leave that out.


The 2nd photo was a "brand-new" 2016 10-oz Kook I received from a large US dealer very shortly after it became available. Of course it went back & I got another one.

In the latter half of 2016, I had to send back (to another dealer) a 2017 1-oz Kook that had similar scuffs. Again, a "brand-new" coin shortly after release. I didn't take photos of it. But I do have a 2017 1-oz Kook that developed a milk-spot about a month after I received it. Too lazy to take a pic, but trust me, it's there.


Only several examples, sure. But just the tip of the iceberg...