Perth Bullion Liquidation
- Thread starter nighttrader
- Start date
Could I ask what you mean by contents of the SDB mixing up with the rest? Are they just mixing everything categorically or are they actually moving the inventory and mixing it up with others?
cracka stacka
Member
Who are the real crooks here? You think its Perth Bullion? The real crooks are the taxation department and the liquidators. PBC and anyone who had holdings with them are the victims. You think the liquidator is just going to automatically send you your stuff? They don't want to. They would rather it go unclaimed and then they get to keep it. Maybe you lost or deleted your invoices and have no way to claim, then they get to keep it. That's why they will make it as hard as possible and jerk you around until you feel like its all hopeless and just leave it. Or maybe you wont even here about the liquidation in time and then its too late. You think this Neil bloke is doing this for fun and to help people? He is doing it to make money and cash in, so of course they will come up with all kinds of BS like missing records etc. Maybe PBC told a few people to pay them into another account so that they could ship them stuff without the liquidators knowing about it. Maybe they wanted to ship out a last few orders and had to tell people to pay the shipping cost into a new account as the liquidators had taken over the old one. Who knows but I doubt they were trying to scam people.
All speculation of course but at the end of the day, the message here is that the liquidators will jerk you around, believe that.
All speculation of course but at the end of the day, the message here is that the liquidators will jerk you around, believe that.
I meant that I understand that, for example, for the allocated / unallocated stock there needs to be a reconciliation process, and for all the other matters that have to do with the finances of company there has to be a review, but if I hold my property in their boxes and I provide proof for it and the SDB number, I see this as a straight-forward process, which should take priority over the other investigations. Yeah, one could suppose all sorts of ulterior motives...
Or am I wrong??
Another huge red flag is that people here had access to their records for a while after the liquidators took over, which goes against their claim that there are no records. This is worrying!!
I fully agree!!
I'm going to ask this simply from skimming on what a PPSA is for now, but isn't this practically telling a government body what you're actually owning? I get that registering gives you protection when a liquidator is involved but from my understanding, some of the stackers here didn't seem fond of having any government body know that they are stacking PMs and how much they're stacking.
I'm quite happy to debate and look further into this but wanted to be sure on what gets involved
PPSA does not apply to safety deposit boxes.
For the Personal Property Security Act (PPSA) to apply there must first be a "Security Interest". the definition of Security Interest is drafted very widely, and it captures certain arrangements that would not previously have been regarded as a security interest, such as consignments and leases but it is not so wide as to capture safety deposit boxes or their content. The property remains the depositors. There is no Security Interest and no registrable interest under the PPSA.
You can read the definition of a Security Interest in section 12 of the act here: http://www8.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ppsa2009356/s12.html
I'm sure that if you go to register an interest they will accept it (given they are paid to do so) but the registration can't give you any greater legal right.
For the Personal Property Security Act (PPSA) to apply there must first be a "Security Interest". the definition of Security Interest is drafted very widely, and it captures certain arrangements that would not previously have been regarded as a security interest, such as consignments and leases but it is not so wide as to capture safety deposit boxes or their content. The property remains the depositors. There is no Security Interest and no registrable interest under the PPSA.
You can read the definition of a Security Interest in section 12 of the act here: http://www8.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ppsa2009356/s12.html
I'm sure that if you go to register an interest they will accept it (given they are paid to do so) but the registration can't give you any greater legal right.
I have SDB's there too, one for SMSF and one personal - latter one only rented since January... We have documentation but I'm sure not everyone will.
How can there be such shoddy records? I have emails with all "note added to your account" messages that include any order numbers etc. My account had info in it.
I was able use the links until yesterday, today the link goes to a site notifying the webpage has been parked. Why is the liquidator taking steps to make life difficult for those relying on their account?
If it's not organised yet let's start talking about when is a good time to gather. Whinging on a blog does othing to make RSM pull their finger out.
Unfortunately most people will be most available when the liquidator is not. How about we try to get him out on a Saturday morning? First Saturday of July? Out the front of PBC? If enough people call him to attend it won't matter if he comes because we will get the attention required to make him respond. It may even do a favour for the industry by shedding light on the circumstances brought about by the tax laws leading to this (if that's all there is to it....).
I'm sure everyone here has been searching Google to find out more. FYI I did a duckduckgo search and found the results were HEAPS more pertinent.
Good luck to those who rely on luck.
For the others good luck with the phone calls, emails and meetings - I'll look forward to discussing this with you.
How can there be such shoddy records? I have emails with all "note added to your account" messages that include any order numbers etc. My account had info in it.
I was able use the links until yesterday, today the link goes to a site notifying the webpage has been parked. Why is the liquidator taking steps to make life difficult for those relying on their account?
If it's not organised yet let's start talking about when is a good time to gather. Whinging on a blog does othing to make RSM pull their finger out.
Unfortunately most people will be most available when the liquidator is not. How about we try to get him out on a Saturday morning? First Saturday of July? Out the front of PBC? If enough people call him to attend it won't matter if he comes because we will get the attention required to make him respond. It may even do a favour for the industry by shedding light on the circumstances brought about by the tax laws leading to this (if that's all there is to it....).
I'm sure everyone here has been searching Google to find out more. FYI I did a duckduckgo search and found the results were HEAPS more pertinent.
Good luck to those who rely on luck.
For the others good luck with the phone calls, emails and meetings - I'll look forward to discussing this with you.
iceblue
Well-Known Member
Pretty close to the mark i reckon.
People do you really think this bloke is going to package up your goods and send them to you? Do you think he will offer refunds? Maybe if your lucky you will get a small window providing you have all the documentation to have access to your SDB in person, dont hold your breath.
When he is telling people to get insurance - read between the lines - ya gonna get screwed.
If Iam proven to be wrong and you get your metal/refunds then thats a great outcome for all those that have been caught up in this mess.
Be aware of the tactics being used to turn public sentiment against PBC.
Just wondering if anyone managed to get hold of Neil Cribb throught his direct line? https://www.rsm.global/australia/people/neil-cribb
Mine just went through voicemail.
Hey guys I'm actually curious as to what kind of scenario SDB holders could get screwed over by as you would think that if you have a box and can prove that you have ownership of the contents of the box you have leased, you should get your stuff back unscathed.
I was wondering why SDB holders would be worried if this would be the likely outcome unless they would think otherwise. I would like to know what could possible go wrong for SDB holders when the process should be straightforward in their case.
I was wondering why SDB holders would be worried if this would be the likely outcome unless they would think otherwise. I would like to know what could possible go wrong for SDB holders when the process should be straightforward in their case.
There are 450 safety deposit box holders, many of them with a large chunk of their wealth I would bet.
I'm not sure any of them would sit quietly while they try and steal the contents. Gladstone also would have significant exposure in the way of insurance I would imagine they would fight tooth and nail to ensure the contents are returned.
If it comes to it, and let's hope it doesnt, but I'm sure there are legal options that could be pursued to file some sort of injunction to stop them illegally accessing the boxes. They would have to drill out all the locks in order to get to the contents how the hell are they going to think they can get away with that when you have an army of people with invoices, keys and other paperwork showing they are the licensees of the boxes.
You have valid points though and I do believe they will make.it difficult but I'm not sure the administrator has some agenda other than to ensure all property is returned to the right parties. Given the last circular they may not have an ex employee or director helping them, they may just be trying to wade through all the shit on their own.
This is not my fight so good luck with your PMs. However, we are stackers not orators, FFS can someone in Perth put together a group?
Meanwhile, what can we take away from this? In Sydney there are a few private vaults. What if they went belly up? It makes sense to use them for SMSF where everything is documented and insurance is not a privacy issue. But, as to private holdings, is there a need for a "dark" vault owned and run by a collective? Perth Bullion proves that if you don't hold it, you don't own it.
I'll put my thinking gear around this and talk it through at the next Stackeratti meeting.
Meanwhile, what can we take away from this? In Sydney there are a few private vaults. What if they went belly up? It makes sense to use them for SMSF where everything is documented and insurance is not a privacy issue. But, as to private holdings, is there a need for a "dark" vault owned and run by a collective? Perth Bullion proves that if you don't hold it, you don't own it.
I'll put my thinking gear around this and talk it through at the next Stackeratti meeting.
Definitely ATO are the biggest crooks here, the Liquidators probably are as well.
But I think the big surprise for me that the Perth Bullion guys are crooks too !!! Perth Bullion have set up an bank account after the company was put into administration but while they still had access to their website !
So I and other repeat customers have paid into this new account.
They did this to steal my and others money ! As they didn't even have access to the office or the their vault but the website was still taking orders and people's money.
I also think it's ridiculous that the company has been put into liquidation for nearly a week but the website was still taking orders so trading as normal.... What the hell were the administrators doing to try stop him from stealing people's money from the website?
I feel for Everyone in this situation, especially because I think we're asking a bunch of criminals For our money or metals back.
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Unfortunately, and I speak from experience, scammers prey on situations like this. They spoof email address headers and send emails to people already in panic mode.
What's to say that someone (possibly even attached to the liquidators) sells a list of customers to scammers who then fleece any unfortunates who respond?
Changing account numbers is a common attack vector. Unless we know who controls the new account numbers, we cant presume anything. Also the bank never compares the account name you give them, it is not checked. So they can call it Kermit the Frog Pty Ltd, but it really belongs to Gerard Turtletard. Try and verify ownership and the banks wont check for you citing privacy reasons. So if this happens, and someone changes account details in an email, be immediately suspicious and confirm through another verifiable channel, i.e. Phone.
Don't assume these emails are from anyone connected to PB. The small amounts that come through would not be worth their while.
Pretty sure Lloyd's provides safe deposit box insurance, but you may need to go through a broker such as JLT: https://www.jlt.com/industry/specie-insurance
However, I think at this point you would struggle to insure or if you can insure, then claim against a loss.
Those who have a safe deposit box don't have access to it, how would you be able to prove to the insurer that the loss occurred after you took out the policy?
Really awful situation and for those who have a substantial sum tied up in this mess it may be worth investigating the insurance angle, but it would be a bit like trying to take out a home insurance policy once the building is already on fire.