Pension Debate: 'No One Has the Guts' to Let the Poor 'Wither and Die'

The system is a ponzi ... of course it is flawed and isnt going to work .... except to siphon any value from others to those at the top ... and they laughed at the Indians that sold their land for a few beads and blankets ... this fiat "system" is worse ...
 
The assumption that any system exists at all without our active and complicit participation is a fundamentally flawed concept. Who wants to trade their comfort for liberty? Or is your concept of liberty so tainted that it is measured in dollar terms?

Thomas Jefferson said:
"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."
 
Golden Retriever said:
hawkeye said:
Depopulation would happen naturally if not for government intervention. The problem is that government has so many ponzi schemes going it needs to encourage breeding. Even so it's not doing a particularly good job, thankfully, but it is encouraging the least responsible in society to breed more. Idiocracy, here we come.

^This... It's the system that's broken and the idea of killing off the elderly to keep it going a little longer is unconscionable. How long are we going to keep putting band aids on this thing before we start addressing the root causes?

I'll probably get flamed for this but I also find it interesting what some people's idea of a free ride is. The overall prosperity of this world is the aggregate of every hour of productive labour that each person contributes. Things like farming, manufacturing, construction, engineering, science, health care work etc. It seems to me that at the moment the vast majority of this prosperity is being enjoyed by an extraordinarily small percentage of people who, in a lot of cases, have never done a productive days work in their life. So who's really getting the free ride here?

Are you trying to imply that a poor person'slife has the same value as a rich persons life? That what a person does for a job does not affect the individuals worth?

Oh and I was being sarcastic before, I agree with what you are saying it is just I know a lot of other people will not.

People seem to be focussed on money and how they can keep it and screw everyone else.
 
Newtosilver said:
Are you trying to imply that a poor person'slife has the same value as a rich persons life? That what a person does for a job does not affect the individuals worth?

Oh and I was being sarcastic before, I agree with what you are saying it is just I know a lot of other people will not.

People seem to be focussed on money and how they can keep it and screw everyone else.

I know you were being sarcastic mate. :)

Your first statement is interesting. I think that, rich or poor, every persons life has the same value but I do think what a person does for a job does indeed affect their worth to society. In that respect, the richest men in the world at the moment are also the most worthless in my eyes.
 
Results not typical said:
Miloman you present these stories, they are all conjecture and then you speak about them as they were truth. So much of what you are posting is paranoia.

It's not miloman, it's the author Allen Clifton a vehement anti-Republican.

Johnston wrote: "For almost three generations people, in some cases, have been given handouts," Johnston said during the discussion. "They have been 'enabled' so much that their paradigm in life is simply being given the stuff of life, however meager."

"What you see is a setting for a life of misery is life to them never-the-less," he continued. "No one has the guts to just let them wither and die. No one who wants votes is willing to call a spade a spade. As long as the Dems can get their votes the enabling will continue. The Republicans need their votes and dare not cut the fiscal tether. It is really a political Catch-22."

Source: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/06/...s-the-guts-to-let-poor-people-wither-and-die/
 
Golden Retriever said:
Newtosilver said:
Are you trying to imply that a poor person'slife has the same value as a rich persons life? That what a person does for a job does not affect the individuals worth?

Oh and I was being sarcastic before, I agree with what you are saying it is just I know a lot of other people will not.

People seem to be focussed on money and how they can keep it and screw everyone else.

I know you were being sarcastic mate. :)

Your first statement is interesting. I think that, rich or poor, every persons life has the same value but I do think what a person does for a job does indeed affect their worth to society. In that respect, the richest men in the world at the moment are also the most worthless in my eyes.

Interesting comment in regards to a persons job and their worth to society, a lot of jobs people think are crap and the people doing them are a lower "class" can actually be very important to how a society functions. An example would be a sewerage worker, really shitty job (ha ha) but where would people be if there was no working sewerage system?

Then you look at some of the people higher up in the finance industry dealing with derivitaves.
 
Nothing wrong with passive eugenics, but when you use it to justify murder, incest and forced marriges, you're going too far. Choosing a mate based on a desire for beneficial genetic traits for your offspring is part of many unions. It shouldn't be the only factor, but it is one of the reasons health and intelligence are considered attractive traits. IMO, it's more justified than relationships based on financial factors.
 
Newtosilver said:
Golden Retriever said:
Newtosilver said:
Are you trying to imply that a poor person'slife has the same value as a rich persons life? That what a person does for a job does not affect the individuals worth?

Oh and I was being sarcastic before, I agree with what you are saying it is just I know a lot of other people will not.

People seem to be focussed on money and how they can keep it and screw everyone else.

I know you were being sarcastic mate. :)

Your first statement is interesting. I think that, rich or poor, every persons life has the same value but I do think what a person does for a job does indeed affect their worth to society. In that respect, the richest men in the world at the moment are also the most worthless in my eyes.

Interesting comment in regards to a persons job and their worth to society, a lot of jobs people think are crap and the people doing them are a lower "class" can actually be very important to how a society functions. An example would be a sewerage worker, really shitty job (ha ha) but where would people be if there was no working sewerage system?

Then you look at some of the people higher up in the finance industry dealing with derivitaves.


Exactly, I always right someone should write "atlas shat". A book where all the hardworking underpaid cleaners, nurses, factory workers, farmers, truck drivers and other productive people decide to leave and form their own society full of people who actually get shit done. The highly paid CEO's, marketing gurus, magazine editors, celebrity chefs and high frequency trading managers are left to wallow in a society that cant feed or clothe itself and is generally falling apart.

I actually think that the world is better for marketing, CEO's and even high frequency traders buy something is wrong when a CEO is making more in a year than a nurse will in 5 lifetimes or more. Yes, it's what the market will bare but it isn't a reflection of their contribution.

With regards to entitlements I have seen them work first hand just the way they should. My grandfather relied on government money to complete his education as an electrical engineer. He grew up quite poor and would likely never have never been able to complete his education without it. He was provided for while he studied and then spent half a century being a massively productive member of society, helping build and develop the commanding Heights of the South Australian economy, contributing many times over in taxes what he took. My mother got a a free degree and similarly contributed much more than she took.

Because of some unfortunate personal circumstances our family was reliant on government benefits for a time. It Allowed me and my sister to stay in school and advance, she's a nurse now, earning good money and paying tax. It was very hard to make it work on so little money and we had a little help, I can't imagine what it's like for people who really have no extra help from family and friends.

I have NO time at all for people who fraudulently abuse the system and no time for people who have no intention to make the most of what have and show a little initiative to improve their circumstances. BUT and it's a big but, there are many people out there who have relied on government benefits and have been able to improve their circumstances and contribute to society in a much greater way than they would have without such support. If your moving in the right direction there's no reason society should support you until you can repay as best you can what you've taken. Whether that's the dole while your (actually) looking for work, support while your studying or those who are limited in their ability disability and age pensions.

The system of supporting students and providing free tertiary education in the third quater of this century created a generation of educated, successful and productive people, the likes of which we would be lucky to have now.

I pay tax and I'm studying, I'm happy that my tax dollars are going to support students and job seekers, it's not only the kind thing to do it's an investment in a stable, prosperous and wealthy society.
 
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-research-claims/story-fnb64oi6-1227234634297

Learning to care and co-operate triggered evolution of human intelligence, research claims

JONATHAN LEAKE
The Sunday Times
February 23, 2015 12:00AM


EARLY humans developed kindness, compassion and a sense of beauty long before the emergence of intelligence, research claims.

As long ago as three million years, australopithecines, which had brains just a third the size of ours, were carrying pebbles shaped like babies' faces.

By 1.5 million years ago, with brains still only 60 per cent of their size today, Homo ergaster was caring for the ill, while Homo heidelbergensis, which lived 450,000 years ago, appear to have nursed disabled children.

Intelligence and language skills, as seen in modern humans, are thought to have emerged only in the past 500,000 years and possibly as late as 150,000 years ago. "Human evolution is usually depicted as driven by intelligence, with empathy and deeper emotions following," said Penny Spik-ins, who researches human origins at York University.

"However, the evidence suggests it happened the other way round. Evolution made us sociable, living in groups and looking after one another, even before we had language. Our success since then, including the evolution of intelligence, all sprang from that."

Dr Spikins, who is publishing her findings in a book, How Compassion Made Us Human, points to archeological finds hinting that even pre-humans had unsuspected emotional depths.

Among the earliest is the Makapansgat pebble, a small rock with pits and markings resembling a baby's face, found in a South African cave with australopithecines, dating back three million years.

Australopithecines, our direct ancestors, were widely depicted as the "killer ape" because skulls and bones in the cave had been smashed in what the 1930s archeologists who found them assumed was warfare. The discovery inspired the early scenes in the film 2001: A Space odyssey, which suggested that fighting helped apes to evolve into humans.

But Dr Spikins says australopithecines were hunted by other animals and survived by co-operating rather than fighting.

"What is remarkable is that this pebble was carried several miles back to its cave by an australopithecine,'' she said. "Did it remind them of a baby? It is impossible to tell for sure but this is not the only tantalising sign of something perhaps approaching tenderness."

Dr Spikins said early humans may have had a sense of aesthetics. This is suggested by a 250,000-year-old hand axe found at West Tofts in Norfolk, made from a rock containing a fossilised scallop shell and designed to make the fossil the centrepiece of the tool.

"A uniquely human feeling lies behind both the creation of such finely crafted tools and caring for the vulnerable," Dr Spikins said.

"It suggests early humans, from two million years ago, were emotionally similar to us."

Her theories are likely to be controversial in a field dominated by the belief that early humans were ruthless hunters.

Dr Spikins says fighting and competition were less important than the co-operation that helped the evolution of intelligence.

"The idea that we are all innately selfish, which comes from modern economics, has had a strong influence on how we interpret archeological finds but the evidence suggests that ... early humans' survival would have depend-ed on co-operation: aggressive or selfish behaviour would have been very risky."
 
smk762 said:
The assumption that any system exists at all without our active and complicit participation is a fundamentally flawed concept. Who wants to trade their comfort for liberty? Or is your concept of liberty so tainted that it is measured in dollar terms?

Thomas Jefferson said:
"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."

Is this addressed to me? I'll answer your questions anyway.

"Who wants to trade their comfort for liberty?"
A gilded cage is still a cage. And it's only gilded and comfortable for as long as those in power choose for it to be comfortable. Freedom brings prosperity and a life well-lived. Government's are a threat to that, not the provider of it, and history s pretty clear on this.

Or is your concept of liberty so tainted that it is measured in dollar terms?
No, but as mentioned above they just happen to coincide.

I guess Jefferson was one of those people where his actions didn't match his words.
 
hawkeye said:
smk762 said:
The assumption that any system exists at all without our active and complicit participation is a fundamentally flawed concept. Who wants to trade their comfort for liberty? Or is your concept of liberty so tainted that it is measured in dollar terms?

Thomas Jefferson said:
"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."

Is this addressed to me? I'll answer your questions anyway.

"Who wants to trade their comfort for liberty?"
A gilded cage is still a cage. And it's only gilded and comfortable for as long as those in power choose for it to be comfortable. Freedom brings prosperity and a life well-lived. Government's are a threat to that, not the provider of it, and history s pretty clear on this.

Or is your concept of liberty so tainted that it is measured in dollar terms?
No, but as mentioned above they just happen to coincide.

I guess Jefferson was one of those people where his actions didn't match his words.

What is your version of freedom / Liberty in relation to living in a society with other people in a healthy functioning society that takes the good of everyone into account?

Edit also you say Govt is a threat to freedom etc. can you provide a few examples of functioning societies that don't have a strong functioning Govt?
 
Stoic Phoenix said:
Why are we picking on pensioners, a vast many who have worked hard all their life rather than those on unemployment benefits?

Public expenditure on every other direct welfare payment (including financial assistance for those working age) is 1/3rd of age pension liabilities.

US, UK, Australia, Canada, the same ratio repeats across almost every western democracy. Have a look at the pie charts in the links I've provided below.

Future pension liabilities is expected keep rising as demographics shift and life expectancy rises.

Australia
http://www.news.com.au/finance/econ...all-the-money-go/story-fn84fgcm-1226639950766
From ABC Article said:
Age Pension
$37 Billion
The dole
$9 Billion

http://taxreview.treasury.gov.au/co.../Fact Sheets/Overview_Tax_Transfer_System.htm
Overview_Tax_Transfer_System-2.gif


US Federal
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_budget_pie
2015 FY - US Federal Gov
Pensions 26%
(All Other Direct) Welfare 10%

UK
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_budget_pie_chart
2015 FY - UK
Pensions 20%
(All Other Direct) Welfare 15%

Canada
http://globalnews.ca/news/226865/interactive-graphic-how-ottawa-spends/
Old Age Security Payments - 13.33% of gov. expenditure
Canada Social Transfer - 5.17% of gov. expenditure

The rising cost of public healthcare commitments to the aging population is nothing to sniff at either.
 
hawkeye said:
smk762 said:
The assumption that any system exists at all without our active and complicit participation is a fundamentally flawed concept. Who wants to trade their comfort for liberty? Or is your concept of liberty so tainted that it is measured in dollar terms?

Thomas Jefferson said:
"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."

Is this addressed to me? I'll answer your questions anyway.

"Who wants to trade their comfort for liberty?"
A gilded cage is still a cage. And it's only gilded and comfortable for as long as those in power choose for it to be comfortable. Freedom brings prosperity and a life well-lived. Government's are a threat to that, not the provider of it, and history s pretty clear on this.

Or is your concept of liberty so tainted that it is measured in dollar terms?
No, but as mentioned above they just happen to coincide.

I guess Jefferson was one of those people where his actions didn't match his words.

Not addressing anyone specific, just howling at the wind. Totally agree with the gilded cage, and though dollar terms are the measure of the system we find ourselves in, unfortunately so is government, coinciding to build and guard the cage. Jeffo said a lot against Gov, I'd say he was a minarchist.

Thomas Jefferson said:
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

Wonder if that would be considered terrorism?

Thomas Jefferson said:
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.

He also said some pro-gov stuff, I'm assuming after the independence. Mostly it was that, assuming the people were informed, educated and involved, it could be a good thing.

Thomas Jefferson said:
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.

I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion.

If the present Congress errs in too much talking, how can it be otherwise in a body to which the people send one hundred and fifty lawyers, whose trade it is to question everything, yield nothing, and talk by the hour?

Context of his era is also to be taken into account. Some form of organisation was required to defeat the British monarchy, involving guns and free speech. They replaced it with something with more liberty, but he wasn't assuming it would last. He warned against Gov going too far.

Thomas Jefferson said:
To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned.
 
smk762 said:
Not addressing anyone specific, just howling at the wind. Totally agree with the gilded cage, and though dollar terms are the measure of the system we find ourselves in, unfortunately so is government, coinciding to build and guard the cage. Jeffo said a lot against Gov, I'd say he was a minarchist.

Thomas Jefferson said:
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

Wonder if that would be considered terrorism?

Thomas Jefferson said:
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.

He also said some pro-gov stuff, I'm assuming after the independence. Mostly it was that, assuming the people were informed, educated and involved, it could be a good thing.

Thomas Jefferson said:
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.

I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion.

If the present Congress errs in too much talking, how can it be otherwise in a body to which the people send one hundred and fifty lawyers, whose trade it is to question everything, yield nothing, and talk by the hour?

Context of his era is also to be taken into account. Some form of organisation was required to defeat the British monarchy, involving guns and free speech. They replaced it with something with more liberty, but he wasn't assuming it would last. He warned against Gov going too far.

Thomas Jefferson said:
To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned.

I think Jefferson said so much throughout his life that he was bound to contradict himself a few times. And I think a lot of philosophy still hadn't been properly worked out at the time. The concept of property rights, I think, had only been around for a hundred years or so. And women weren't allowed to own property until the 20th century, I think. Slavery as well. Looking back, I have to say that government was the only thing they knew and the only thing that fit regarding the conventions of the time. It might be that we still have a few traditional conventions left to discard before we can properly consider abolishing govt.

Regarding the gilded cage, I think that what happens now is that due to all the inefficiencies of the public sector, we are naturally in a state of recession. Government overcomes this temporarily by creating credit booms, where they drop the interest rate and provide other inducements for people to borrow and therefore spend money, in order to artificially "stimulate" the economy. When you get the inevitable crash, when people as a whole become too indebted, then the public balance sheet gets loaded up to try and offset it. Which inevitably results in higher taxes and less spending power for people and your back to where you started (worse actually because of all the private and public debt). It's all craziness as it currently exists. Crazy economic theories. Government creates temporary prosperity at a very high medium-long term price in order to offset the problems it creates. Credit booms tend to favour a minority of people, those who already have plenty of capital, hence the 99%, rich-poor increasing gap stuff. Does all that make it worth it?
 
Future's so bright I'll have to wear shades!

It's pretty obvious to me that hard times are not far off. The current thread on WA's difficulty is only the start. It was always mining receipts that helped out previously. With mining in the descendant it looks like they've actually decided to bet their political futures on Housing.

Hockey in the papers today with some scheme to allow superannuation access to buy a first home. If I was young I'd be doing everything possible to stay clear of this timebomb.

And interesting article also on taxes and deficits in The Saturday Paper. Puts the lie to the view that any of this new breed of career politicians are prepared to act in anything other than their own interest in getting re-elected. Bow to the Mandarins because they don't have an intellectual patriotic brain cell to join a single other. Stuff the country. Stuff the poor, the elderly and the workers. Whatever it takes to get back into government cars and 5 star hotels on 'fact finding' missions.

Australia finds itself in the remarkable position, at the end of the biggest resources boom in its history, looking at budget red ink for as far as the eye can see. And Smokin' Joe Hockey, once among the most popular members of Team Abbott, finds himself the focus of blame.

This is understandable, but also a bit unfair. The budget is not just his work. It represents the economic world view of the whole government. Indeed, it represents the right-wing ideology of two governments: the Howard government and that of Tony Abbott, who memorably described himself as the political love child of John Howard and Bronwyn Bishop.

The budget, with its raft of grossly regressive savings measures, can be seen as just one part of a long and concerted effort to redistribute income upwards.
IMF assessment

That effort began more than a decade ago when John Howard and Hockey's predecessor, Peter Costello, ran the most profligate government in Australian history.

Profligate is not our word. It was the word used by the International Monetary Fund in a major report it released early last year, that examined 200 years of government financial records across 55 major economies, identifying periods of government prudence and profligacy in spending.

Overall, Australia was judged very favourably. For most of the country's history, governments of both persuasions had been prudent economic managers. The IMF identified only four periods of profligacy. The two biggest were during the HowardCostello years. They were in 2003 and then between 2005 and 2007, and they accompanied the mining boom.

On its face, the IMF assessment might seem harsh. After all, before they were voted out in 2007, Howard and Costello had delivered six budget surpluses in a row.

But they also seriously undermined the structural integrity of the budget by making big spending commitments and giving huge tax cuts, on the basis of a flood of revenue that would inevitably dry up.

"You can sum it up in four words," says Chris Richardson of Deloitte Access Economics. "Temporary boom, permanent promises."

For a period money roared in to the economy, as a result of what was happening in China and elsewhere. According to Richardson, this enormous boom made the government of Howard and Costello look better than it was.

"Subsequently we've heard the sucking sound as the money's gone back down the gurgler, which has made Rudd, Gillard and Swan look worse than they were," he said. "And it's now making Abbott and Hockey look worse than they are."
'They spent the lot'

To be fair to Howard and Costello, they were encouraged by the bureaucrats in Treasury, the Australian Bureau of Agricultural and Resource Economics and even the Reserve Bank to think this boom was different, and that the money would continue to roll in for decades to come.

"That was a failing. We've never had a permanent boom before," says Richardson. "Anyway, they spent the lot. On tax cuts, baby bonuses, and so on."

John Hewson, former Liberal leader, economist and now professor with the Crawford School of Public Policy at the Australian National University, underlines the point: "The tax cuts Howard and Costello gave are now costing [the budget] about $30 billion a year, and the deficit's $40 billion."

Without those cuts and the $9 billion Hockey gave unasked for and against the will of treasury to the Reserve Bank, says Hewson, "the deficit problem wouldn't exist".

And that's without including some $40 billion in tax concessions for superannuation, which accrue overwhelmingly to the wealthiest 20 per cent of taxpayers.

"You can easily add it up to show that the deficit that exists today is a fake number," says Hewson. "They've basically imposed it on themselves."

More correctly, they imposed it on the less well-off.

Matt Grudnoff, the senior economist at The Australia Institute, calculates that over the seven years from 2005-06 to 2011-12, the federal government lost $169 billion in revenue as a result of the income tax cuts alone.

"Of the $169 billion in tax cuts, 42 per cent of them, or $71 billion, went to the top 10 per cent of income earners," he wrote in his paper "Tax cuts that broke the budget". "The top 10 per cent got more in tax cuts than the bottom 80 per cent."

On Grudnoff's figuring, this year's budget would have been fatter by almost $40 billion had the cuts not been given.
Rudd followed suit

The HowardCostello government delivered five rounds of income tax cuts, and had promised more during the 2007 election campaign. The incoming Rudd Labor government, having committed to match the Coalition's promised cuts, delivered them.

So Labor cannot escape all blame for the current state of the budget. But it is largely guilty of just proceeding to do what the Howard government would have done, by hacking into revenue. Its spending, contrary to the consistent assertions of conservatives over recent years, was not the issue.

That has been made abundantly clear by various analyses of the structural decline of the budget.

Having detailed two of these reports last year by the treasury department and the independent Parliamentary Budget Office The Sydney Morning Herald's economics editor Ross Gittins apportioned the relative culpability of the two parties thus:

"They say it's only when the tide goes out you discover who's been swimming naked. It's the same when you calculate the 'structural' budget balance. And we've just learnt that though Wayne Swan's cossie has slipped revealingly, Peter Costello was completely starkers."

Not surprisingly, Swan endorses these analyses: "It's the revenue, stupid," he says. "It was a revenue story throughout."

Chris Richardson agrees.

"To understand Canberra over the past decade, you have to follow the money," he says, and takes us on a quick tour, complete with roller-coaster graphs.

The boom that made the Coalition government look good lasted less than a year into Labor's term in office, he says.

"Then it all came crashing down with the GFC [at the end of 2008]. Then it roared back up in 2010-11, which is when Swan said we would be back in surplus in three years. He thought the commodity boom was returning, but in reality coal and iron ore prices had peaked in 2011."
Last surplus forecast

On October 22, 2012, MYEFO came out, for the last time forecasting a surplus in 2012-13.

"That happened to be the first day for payment of the new mining tax and the day for the quarterly payments of a couple of other taxes," Richardson recalls.

But receipts were nowhere near the forecasts issued that very day.

"By the end of the day, MYEFO was all over, red rover. The surplus was gone. It was a bizarre day. From there it was a steep line of revenue write-downs," says Richardson.

Swan recalls that time only too well, and particularly the press conference he was forced to give five days before Christmas 2012, "when I had to go out and admit we weren't coming back to surplus".

"The last lot of revenue downgrades was so large it would have been damaging to the economy to try to force it back to surplus in 2012-13," he says.

That was the worst, but he says: "All of our MYEFOs from 2010 onwards were like bloody budgets, because every forecast came in under."

Joe Hockey is fast learning how that feels.

The important thing about all this history is how it illuminates the present.

It is largely because of decisions taken a decade and more ago that young unemployed people, pensioners, students, the sick and the recipients of foreign aid are now being targeted by budget cuts.

The Howard government was blessed with a huge windfall. Fiscal prudence, based on the understanding that all previous mining booms have ended in busts, would dictate that revenue be preserved somehow.

It might have done this in a number of ways, such as spending on big infrastructure projects. Instead infrastructure spending slipped to its lowest level in decades as a proportion of GDP.

Or it might have put the extra tax revenue into a sovereign wealth fund, like so many resource-dependent economies around the world have done.

It might have kicked one-off payments into the superannuation accounts of Australian workers.

But that is not what the Howard government did.

"Not only did they give away $40 billion, but they skewed the giveaways heavily in favour of the wealthy," says Hewson.

"Now, take that expenditure history and then look at this budget, with its 10-12 per cent cut to the disposable incomes at the bottom end of the income scale people on $50,000 or $60,000, and less than 1 per cent cut to disposable income at the top end.

"What we have is the legacy of past inequity plus the inequity of the present measures. And they wonder why their budget gets slammed."

The interesting thing in political terms is that there was no such outrage back when Howard and Costello were handing out tax cuts on an annual basis.

So long as everyone was getting a little extra, it seemed, most people were prepared to overlook the fact that 80 per cent of the extra lolly was being given to 20 per cent of the populace.

http://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/...otege-tony-abbott/14189940001389#.VPswE47Snh7

Makes it harder to maintain a view that there is a generational conspiracy to move the world to a Feudal order doesn't it?
 
JulieW said:
And interesting article also on taxes and deficits in The Saturday Paper. Puts the lie to the view that any of this new breed of career politicians are prepared to act in anything other than their own interest in getting re-elected.
Agreed.
You will enjoy this one Jules....

A MAJOR public sector union critical to Daniel Andrews' election triumph has demanded a pay rise of more than 30 per cent over the next three years in a log of claims that would cost taxpayers more than $1.5 billion.

The United Firefighters Union has presented the Country Fire Authority with its latest demands for a new Enterprise Bargaining Agreement, which include pay increases of 9.7 per cent a year for the next three years.

A source within the Metropolitan Fire Brigade said it was expecting a similar demand from the UFU.

The union also demands that any firefighter working more than 20 minutes' overtime be paid for a full day, and that firefighters be exempt from paying the Fire Services Levy and be able to use public transport free.

A CFA firefighter with three years' service is currently paid around $70,000 a year. There were at least 750 career firefighters as of last June.

UFU representatives doorknocked and manned polling booths for Labor across the state during the election campaign.

.....

Mark O'Brien, a spokesman for Emergency Services Minister Jane Garrett, said the Government was working through the EBA in good faith.

"We will not comment on the specifics of the negotiations as we reach for a deal which will benefit firefighters and the Victorian community.

"Unlike the previous government, we will not go to war with the unions who serve our state," Mr O'Brien said.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/fi...d Sun&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=editorial

Mmmmm... didn't know it was the unions that served the state?..... :lol:
 
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