One oz ABC bullion. Can you help a new guy?

A

Ant

New Member
Greetings all. Great forum, wish I'd found it a bit earlier.

I recently acquired some gold bullion via a company-that-shall-remain-nameless. The first time I ordered, I specfied PAMP one ounce bars, whicih of course came in the "certicard" form. Being rather inexperienced (or just plain stupid), the second time I ordered, I did not specify PAMP (or Perth Mint) ounces, and accordingly received ABC cast ounces instead.

Anyway, apart from paying the same price for cast as mint, I have a few concerns over this:

1. Fake-ability. Obviously, the PAMP ounces are a lot more detailed than my ABC "buttons/blobs", and don't have a certicard. I am aware that some people regard the whole certicard thing as a bit of a marketing gimmick, but it could also be argued that coming up with the the extra packaging of a certicard adds an extra embuggerance to would-be counterfeiters. So, first question, any chance of my ABC buttons not being legit, and should I get them assayed? If so, what does this cost and where should I get it done?

2. Recognisability. I have gone back through the forum archives (and have dark smudges under my eyes to prove it), and from what I've read, it seems PM and PAMP are more internationally recognised "brands". Would I have trouble selling my ABCs abroad when the time comes (which will only be after I am once again sure fiat is trustworthy)? For that matter, would I have any difficulty selling them here in Aus? So, second question, is ABC recognised as a quality brand?

3. Resale price. Will my cast ABCs appreciate less value than minted and certified bars, or is an ounce of gold an ounce of gold? A $10 difference in premium at spot of $1600 isn't too much to worry about, but if gold appreciated ten times in value, will the premiums between mint and cast significantly diverge? I'm sure if gold went to $16000 an ounce for mint, but $100 less for cast, I could live with it - but then again, such a rocket in gold price would probably mean a tin of baked beans was $100, so maybe every cent counts?!?!?

Thanks in advance for any replies. Any advice would be greatly appreciated, as at this stage I am fretting over not specifying PAMP!
 
Regarding (1), for you own peace of mind you might want to look at getting them assayed. There are a number of dealers around who have XRF testers who'll test them at no charge in the interests of customer/public service. Make some enquiries, pop into their shop and have a browse and a chat (if they have the time that is).

If you're not happy with the service you received from the dealer who sold you the bar, let them know you're not happy with the item you received and ask if they'll replace it.
 
Ant said:
Would I have trouble selling my ABCs abroad when the time comes (which will only be after I am once again sure fiat is trustworthy)?
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you will never have a problem, because if you wait until fiat is trustworthy, you will be using your ABC's to buy Ice-creams in hell .. :lol:

Welcome!

edited to include some friendliness.
 
Hi Ant.

First of all, you should talk to the company which sold you cast bars at the price of minted bars. It's plain thievery and it shouldn't be condoned.

1. The easiest test would be the gravity test. Provided that ABC cast bars don't have any special packaging. All you need is good scales, a glass of water and a calculator. See here how to do it: How to tell if gold is real? Also, search YouTube. There are numerous videos with demonstration of simple gravity test.

2. ABC brand (both from Sydney and Melbourne) are recognisable in Australia and you won't have any problems with selling it here. Also, in a couple of shops sellers told me that they sell ABC cast bars to Chinese people like hotcakes. Mainly because of the very low premium over the spot price and because Chinese don't care much about the brand names apparently and not ready to pay premium for this. In any case, ABC name is well established in Australia and widely recognisable. I dont know about other countries though.

3. Yes, minted bullions yield a bit higher premium. But not too high, frankly. Treat it as packaging. In the case of certicard it's the actual packaging that costs a bit extra. Some people care about nice packaging when they buy stuff, others - not so much. YMMV.
 
In respect to 3. I'd agree that in the main, "gold is gold", (especially if assayed), but it would be fair to say in a flat market like today's, if you "had" to sell, it might take a keener price to move the ABC cast bar quickly than the PAMP or PM, in a private market forum such as SS.

Either way, when the time comes to sell, a good price will move anything!

What you could easily do is, assuming that gold moves upwards wrt fiat, trade it over for a PAMP (or sell & re-buy or part-exchange for a 100g bar), lose a few bucks if you have to on the trade, then you won't be so concerned for the long term.

I'm only new into the game, but all mine are PAMP for that reason (before they were lost in the boating accident).
 
Syd888 said:
It's plain thievery and it shouldn't be condoned.
.
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I don't think this is very fair. The OP asked and paid for 1oz of Gold and the company delivered. Also the company in question isn't even aware that the OP is unhappy and as such hasn't had the opportunity to rectify it.
 
Nugget said:
I don't think this is very fair. The OP asked and paid for 1oz of Gold and the company delivered. Also the company in question isn't even aware that the OP is unhappy and as such hasn't had the opportunity to rectify it.
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I may be mistaken, but if I understood correctly, OP paid the same price for cast as minted bars. So, if a company sells both cast and minted bars at the same price, then either they are stupid and it's a bargain to buy minted bars from them, or (which is most likely) they rely on customers not checking their bill and paying for cast bars as minted ones.
 
Syd888 said:
Nugget said:
I don't think this is very fair. The OP asked and paid for 1oz of Gold and the company delivered. Also the company in question isn't even aware that the OP is unhappy and as such hasn't had the opportunity to rectify it.
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I may be mistaken, but if I understood correctly, OP paid the same price for cast as minted bars. So, if a company sells both cast and minted bars at the same price, then either they are stupid and it's a bargain to buy minted bars from them, or (which is most likely) they rely on customers not checking their bill and paying for cast bars as minted ones.
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Depends what the OP asked.

If it went along the lines of "How much is a 1oz gold bar?" the dealer might very well have quoted the price for a generic blob on the assumption that a lot of customers what the cheapest gold available.

Had the OP then asked "How much is a 1oz gold PAMP bar?" the dealer might have quoted an extra $40 (or whatever the extra premium was).
 
Hello.

First off, thanks for the replies so far. I didn't actually expect to hear anything back on a Saturday afternoon. Just thought I would jump in to clarify the cast v mint bar situation, as I appear to have opened a can of worms. What happened was, the company offers PAMP, PM or ABC, all at the one price, there being no distinction between cast or mint. I sent in an an e-mail requesting 5 ounces, without specifying what particular brand I wanted. They sent back a quote, and I just looked at the price and said OK, rather than checking what brand they were offering. Later on, I became aware that many other sites etc actually differentiate on price between ABC and the others, and perhaps between cast and mint. I fully accept it was a lack of due diligence on my part. I'm just a bit miffed that there was no differentation between price as done elsewhere. It just felt like they went, "Oh he didn't specify, so we'll maximise the permium by giving him ABC". Don't know if that's a reasonable attitude to have, or not.
 
Ant said:
Hello.

First off, thanks for the replies so far. I didn't actually expect to hear anything back on a Saturday afternoon. Just thought I would jump in to clarify the cast v mint bar situation, as I appear to have opened a can of worms. What happened was, the company offers PAMP, PM or ABC, all at the one price, there being no distinction between cast or mint. I sent in an an e-mail requesting 5 ounces, without specifying what particular brand I wanted. They sent back a quote, and I just looked at the price and said OK, rather than checking what brand they were offering. Later on, I became aware that many other sites etc actually differentiate on price between ABC and the others, and perhaps between cast and mint. I fully accept it was a lack of due diligence on my part. I'm just a bit miffed that there was no differentation between price as done elsewhere. It just felt like they went, "Oh he didn't specify, so we'll maximise the permium by giving him ABC". Don't know if that's a reasonable attitude to have, or not.
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G'day Ant


Some bullion dealers are pretty much Gold is Gold and Silver is Silver with the distinction being the size.

Question - Does the dealer you bought off buy PAM, Perth Mint or ABC bars back at the same price? If they do then that company doesn't differentiate between the three. Whilst other companies do differentiate that doesn't mean that the company you bought off did anything wrong.

I suggest that you contact the dealer and give them the opportunity to make you happy. That's a win-win scenario in my books


Keep stacking :cool:
 
Whoops, need to further clarify, when I said they didn't specify a diff between cast and mint, I meant in price. The form you get back after you ask for a quote does say "ABC cast one ounce", or "PM mint one ounce", etc, if I recall. Sorta like this, just with more options on offer:

ABC cast 1 oz: 5 $$$$$$$
PM 1 oz: 0 -----------

Total: 5 $$$$$$$

Just that I didn't look closely enough and just looked at the total at the bottom, rather than what particular brand they had offered. So as I said, I shoulda checked, but at that stage did not know other places made a distinction between ABC/PAMP, cast/mint.
 
Syd888 said:
2. ABC brand (both from Sydney and Melbourne) are recognisable in Australia and you won't have any problems with selling it here. Also, in a couple of shops sellers told me that they sell ABC cast bars to Chinese people like hotcakes. Mainly because of the very low premium over the spot price and because Chinese don't care much about the brand names apparently and not ready to pay premium for this. In any case, ABC name is well established in Australia and widely recognisable. I dont know about other countries though.
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Correction.... the bars asians buy are luongs (37.5g) and they buy it for good luck purposes
 
Sounds like it was your fault for not checking what you were buying.

Is 'caveat emptor' relevant in this case?

You could always tell them you're not happy and swap back if they allow it.
 
Dogmatix - I think I may have pointed out my culpability once or twice. a couple of times. And not sure if it is reasonable to ask for a swap.

CK. That's interesting. What reasoning is behind this? You couldn't reply in more detail to points 1,2 and 3 in my original post, could you? Trying to work out if I'm concerned over nothing.
 
Ant said:
Dogmatix - I think I may have pointed out my culpability once or twice. a couple of times. And not sure if it is reasonable to ask for a swap.

CK. That's interesting. What reasoning is behind this? You couldn't reply in more detail to points 1,2 and 3 in my original post, could you? Trying to work out if I'm concerned over nothing.
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Your worrying over nothing ,some people prefer certicards & some prefer poored ingots ,get them XRF tested if you wish ,but I wouldn't bother
NO dealer will pay you a premium on the Pamps , :)
 
Thanks, Spannermonkey. I feel this discussion got a little caught up on me being miffed at paying mint prices for cast. At the end of the day, paying ten dollars over the odds (even x 10, all up) isn't a huge problem. After all the feedback, my main concern now is, if the market is restricted to Australia, they might sell for a grand less than mint or something once gold prices (hopefully) take off.
 
Ant said:
Thanks, Spannermonkey. I feel this discussion got a little caught up on me being miffed at paying mint prices for cast. At the end of the day, paying ten dollars over the odds (even x 10, all up) isn't a huge problem. After all the feedback, my main concern now is, if the market is restricted to Australia, they might sell for a grand less than mint or something once gold prices (hopefully) take off.
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NAH
When prices were moving up
1kg pamp with cert went for $50 - $100 above any other 1 kg bar ( best effort was $200 the boss tells me )
1oz gold was the same about $50-$100 over other bars
A $1000 difference ,I don't believe it
 
Hello again, Spannermonkey. So when 1 oz PAMP gold went for 50-100 bucks over other bars (incl PM?), what was the spot price at the time?
 
Ant said:
Hello again, Spannermonkey. So when 1 oz PAMP gold went for 50-100 bucks over other bars (incl PM?), what was the spot price at the time?
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At it's peak $1650 somewhere
 
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