Noob question: Speciment vs Bullion
- Thread starter Lunarowl
- Start date
Source:
This is a specimen.
For all practical purposes, specimen and bullion refers to the same thing when it comes to bullion coinage. This differs from proof, where specially prepared dies are used to produce high quality finish coins, usually with extreme mirroring effects etc. But it's common to see the term specimen used to describe non-proof coins.
Lunarowl said:
Good question. In fact, I talked via email with a TPG concerning this very subject in light of a couple dragon coins put out this year by Perth. The 1oz Gilded and the Kilo Gemstone (if memory serves). In both cases the Mint states that they are "Specimen" quality coins and yet when it comes to grading the Kilo was graded SP as a Specimen coin but the 1oz Gilded was graded MS, basically a bullion coin. The grader said the designation they give is based on among other things what has happened in the past and in this case several years ago the Gilded coins were, in my opinion, erroneously labeled MS but the error will be continued in spite of what the manufacturer says.
Here's my take:
"MS": your basic bullion coin. Hit the planchet once and call it good. Nothing special, no extra steps, no special care in the manufacturing process.
"PF"/"PR": Your high quality proof coin requiring great care and several steps in the manufacturing process including top quality dies, special planchets, more than one strike for each coin and repeated cleaning of dies during the run.
"SP": The tweener/gray area of the group. Not bullion but also not Proof. Both coins I mentioned above, Gilded and Kilo require more steps and care to produce than the corresponding bullion version and, though not considered Proof by the Mint, were specifically labeled by the people who made the coin to be Specimen quality. I'm thinking the Perth Mint knows what went in to making each of their coins.
Thanks Badhop55, that's very informative.
I'm wondering if speciment is what some people refer to as 'proof-like'.
The coin almost has mirror like quality, but not up to proof standard (somewhere between matte and mirror)?
I have a britannia bullion coin that look like this.
I'm wondering if speciment is what some people refer to as 'proof-like'.
The coin almost has mirror like quality, but not up to proof standard (somewhere between matte and mirror)?
I have a britannia bullion coin that look like this.
I think it is 95.84% fine silverDogmatix said:
1for1
Well-Known Member
Lunarowl said:
Hi, the term like Uncirculated is very ambiguious if considered in its greater numismatic context.
1. The Strike.. its not proof so im calling it bullion/business
2. The Grade.. usually close to Cameo and better than mint state so around ms65-69 so not quite gem mint.
3. Numismatics.. usually a nice grade with full detail
4. Generic scientific term.. a good copy which can be studied as it has all the detail
1for1
Lunarowl said:
It is a confusing subject.
I believe MS, SP an PF/PR are describing the "process" used to produce the coin while "proof like" describes the appearance.
The 5oz America the Beautiful "bullion" coins are produced with a sometimes shiny surface, especially on George's side but also on some areas of the opposite side. However, no great care was taken during their production so some of the, say Yosemites, are essentially mirrors while other Yosemites look as though someone took a Brillo pad to them. Same bullion (MS) coin but what a different appearance. So. when the TPGs started slabbing them they were all given the MS designation, then the number and then if they were judged to be worthy (shinier) a PL (proof like) or if very shiny a DMPL (DPL) for deep mirror proof like was added. So take 3 - 2010 Yosemite bullion coins (and assume they're all 69 condition) and you could have MS69, a MS69PL and a MS69DMPL. Same coin, same process different results.
But then you have those pesky Pandas. As far as I'm concerned all the recent bullion Pandas could be considered proof quality when compared to bullion Koalas, Libertads, Britannias, Kooks etc.
But let's complicate things a bit more. The 5oz America the Beautiful Uncirculated (UNC) versions of the bullion are sold directly from the US Mint, the difference being that there is a mint mark added and they are vapor blasted for an overall matte finish on all surfaces both sides. Other than that, same coin. But these are graded SP by the TPG even though I haven't seen where the US Mint declared them to be Specimen quality.
Maybe the simplest way to determine between bullion and Specimen quality is this. If you can't buy the coin in a roll of 20 and it's not Proof then it's a Specimen quality coin.
Lunarowl said:
In Australia, Specimen refers to the quality of the finish, not the Sheldon grade or item type (bullion bars/ingots/coins).
In the US, Specimen refers to special coins minted at the US mint from 1792-1816, rated as SP, as described below.
Depending on the company/country, Specimen is a term that can be used for, but not limited to, all bullion coins.
Specimen coin = uncirculated issue (bullion) coin with a specimen finish
The term Uncirculated is another matter as it can be used for either the finish or the circulation type.
PCGS:
bullion
Slang for coins, ingots, private issue, and so on that trade below, at, or slightly above their intrinsic metal value. Only the precious metals (gold, silver, platinum, and palladium) are included as bullion. Copper cents could also technically be classed as bullion.
Specimen
Term used to indicate special coins struck at the US Mint from 1792-1816 that display many characteristics of the later Proof coinage. Prior to 1817, the minting equipment and technology was limited, so these coins do not have the "watery" surfaces of later Proofs nor the evenness of strike of the close collar Proofs. PCGS designates these coins SP.
Business Strikes
MS 6070 Uncirculated
AU 50, 53, 55, 58 About Uncirculated
XF 40, 45 Extremely Fine
VF 20, 25, 30, 35 Very Fine
F 12, 15 Fine
VG 8, 10 Very Good
G 4, 6 Good
AG 3 About Good
FA 2 Fair
PR 1 Poor
Proof issues incorporate the same grades. Proof coins will be so noted with the use of the prefix PF for all grades 170.
Designation Abbreviations and Their Meanings appear as a suffix after the Sheldon rating
BN = Brown PF = Proof
CA = Cameo PL = Prooflike
DPL = Deep Prooflike RB = Red Brown
FB = Full Split Bands RD = Red
FBL = Full Bell Lines SP = Specimen
FH = Full Head UC = Ultra Cameo
FT = Full Torch 5FS = Five Full Steps
MS = Mint State 6FS = Six Full Steps
US Mint:
bullion:
platinum, gold or silver in the form of bars or other storage shapes, including coins and ingots.
bullion coin:
precious metal coin traded at current bullion prices.
business strike:
a coin produced for general circulation (as opposed to a proof or uncirculated coin specially made for collectors).
mint state:
same as uncirculated.
proof:
a specially produced coin made from highly polished planchets and dies and often struck more than once to accent the design.
Proof coins receive the highest quality strike possible and can be distinguished by their mirror-like background and frosted foreground.
uncirculated:
The term "uncirculated" may have three different meanings when applied to a coin.
First, it can refer to the particular manufacturing process by which a coin is made.
Second, it can be used as a grade when referring to a coin's degree of preservation and quality of the strike.
Or third, "uncirculated" can point to the fact that a coin has not been used in everyday commerce.
At the United States Mint, we use the term uncirculated when referring to the special coining process used to make the coin, which gives it a brilliant finish. Uncirculated coins are manufactured using the same process as circulating coins, but with quality enhancements such as slightly higher coining force, early strikes from dies, special cleaning after stamping, and special packaging. Uncirculated coins may vary to some degree because of blemishes, toning, or slight imperfections.
" At the United States Mint, we use the term uncirculated when referring to the special coining process used to make the coin, which gives it a brilliant finish. Uncirculated coins are manufactured using the same process as circulating coins, but with quality enhancements such as slightly higher coining force, early strikes from dies, special cleaning after stamping, and special packaging. Uncirculated coins may vary to some degree because of blemishes, toning, or slight imperfections." Aust-Tech
And here is where the waters get a bit muddy. Above you say a UNC coin produced at the US Mint has a brilliant finish but if you look at the 5oz ATB coins I mentioned above the bullion versions have the brilliant finish and the UNC versions have a matte finish produced by vapor blasting.
Would seem that that definition might be out the window.
And here is where the waters get a bit muddy. Above you say a UNC coin produced at the US Mint has a brilliant finish but if you look at the 5oz ATB coins I mentioned above the bullion versions have the brilliant finish and the UNC versions have a matte finish produced by vapor blasting.
Would seem that that definition might be out the window.
badhop55 said:
According to the US Mint glossary and website catalog (not AMPEX):
America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coins for Investors
The America's Beautiful National Parks Quarter Dollar Coin Act of 2008 Public Law 110-456 authorizes the production of five-ounce, .999 fine silver bullion coins replicating each of the designs featured on the United States Mint America the Beautiful Quarters. The bullion coins are three inches in diameter and have a face value of 25 cents. These are the first five-ounce, three-inch, .999 fine silver bullion coins ever produced by the United States Mint. The fineness and weight are edge-incused on the coins.
These unique silver bullion coins will feature reverse designs depicting national parks and other national sites in each state, District of Columbia and five U.S. territories Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, U.S. Virgin Islands and Northern Mariana Islands. The coins will be issued in the order in which the featured site was first established as a national park or site.
Investors can now choose bullion coins that honor some of our Nation's most treasured national parks and sites majestic places that truly make us "America the Beautiful."
United States Mint America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coins are investment-grade silver bullion coins. Their weight, content and purity are guaranteed by the U.S. government.
United States Mint America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coins, with their unique U.S. government backing, may be sold for cash at many coin and precious metals dealers. They are also legal tender. Their quarter-dollar face value is symbolic, because silver's market price reported in the market pages and Web sites of major newspapers has historically been much higher.
America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coins sell at prevailing silver market prices, plus a moderate premium to cover production and other costs. Silver is typically the lowest-priced precious metal, making these bullion coins an affordable choice for most investors.
America the Beautiful Five Ounce Silver Uncirculated Coins for Collectors
The collector ("numismatic") version of the bullion coin is produced with an uncirculated (brilliant) finish. It has the "P" mint mark for the United States Mint at Philadelphia, PA. The coin is encapsulated in plastic, accompanied by a presentation case and Certificate of Authenticity signed by the Director of the United States Mint, and is produced in limited quantities