NGC , Modern Coin Mart and white spots on high grade coins

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silverstar1

New Member
First of all this post is not meant to bash or start people bashing Modern Coin Mart , NGC or any other company. I am posting pictures of a 2012 1/4 oz anniversary 3y coin with terrible white spots and blotches and yet it was graded a PF 69 ? I am writing this post because this is just one disappointing example of many recently from Modern Coin Mart ebay auctions that were graded 69 (and even 70 in one case) and have these bad looking white spots . The biggest problem I have is , I send many coins to NGC and I have never had a coin with several white spots let alone riddled like this example grade above a 68, I can see a coin with very minimal light spots grading a 69 but this is ridicules. So my question is NGC favoring these large companies like MCM and others and shouldn't they be consistent at least for the most part whether you are a small time submitter like me or a large company that submits 1000s at a time? and is it just me or are others experiencing this as well?
Now it could be that these spots and others have developed after grading but I would doubt that is the case with all of them . And to be fair I have seen quite a few ms69s and even 70s with spots from PCGS but I have not graded with them for years so I do not know what there current standards are .

Source:
2758_whtspotpnda1.jpg

Source:
2758_whtsptpnda2.jpg
 
Many of the 2012 silver coins suffer white spots problem, not limiting to panda. So it is very likely big dealer with large submission will see many of their coins with white spots after grading, especially if they submit early.

I am speculating here. Perhaps with the relationship between MCM and NGC, MCM rather passed on the coins to collector instead of claim the guarantee from NGC?
 
I would definitely claim the guarantee, it looks like there are some scratches on the frosted rim as well, left side. The white spots may have emerged after it was already slabbed as well. But I know exactly how you feel. I have sent many coins back to NGC for this reason.
 
Thanks for the input . I will just bite the bullet on this and others , this was only $58 so not a big deal money wise no need to waste my time , I just will no longer buy these type coins from these big dealers. I have been happy with the grading results I have from NGC and if I send a coin with spots and it grades a 67/68 that is fine , I just think it should be consistent or the whole thing falls apart. I also think the bottom line is these mints need to get better quality control specifically the Perth mint and the Chinese mints if they are going to be issuing super high premium proof or collector coins they really need to make sure quality is the goal as know one wants to pay 300 400 500% spot on a new issue coin and have it devalued to spot price because of quality control issues.
 
heyimderrick said:
I would definitely claim the guarantee, it looks like there are some scratches on the frosted rim as well, left side. The white spots may have emerged after it was already slabbed as well. But I know exactly how you feel. I have sent many coins back to NGC for this reason.
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It is quite possible that the white spots developed after being sent to NCS for conservation - see this thread http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=3497.0

That said, I've noticed that many of the 2011 and 2012 1oz silver Pandas carried by the two collectibles vendors in the mall near my office in Beijing have white spots. I've visited these vendors several times in the past few months, and I would guess that out of the 20 or so coins I've looked at over this period of time, 3/4 of them have spotting to some degree. Even the 2012 1oz lotus-shaped lunar dragon I was interested had a white spot (in this case it was more of a blotch). I was very surprised by how prevalent this issue is (I was not expecting to see this in the lunar dragon as it is 6x the cost of a regular panda). It's a shame because these Chinese coins are quite beautiful, IMHO.
 
hobwell said:
Silly newbie type question here. I was actually quite horrified watching how the NGC grade the coins. Video below

http://www.ngccoin.com/coingrading/ngc-coin-certification-overview.aspx#video

Just wondering why they do not wear gloves, especially when handling silver coins?
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They really flip those coins around quickly. I am so careful when handling my coins that I would never shove the coin into a flip so quickly. I also imagine they would get good at holding coins and never drop them but the guy in the video is literally grading a coin in 2 seconds then shoving it back into the flip without much care for the coin. Those were gold coins too that somebody paid good money to have graded.

I do not see how they can grade coins in 2 seconds and makes me second guess sending all these coins in to NGC. I just got back my first batch of graded coins and was not impressed with my scores.

None of the coins except 1 had any visible contact marks or scratches and all were what I would consider mint. however I got two MS-67's probably because they are in such a damn rush to grade them that they just say oh what the hell maybe its an ms68 but Ill just give this guy an ms67 so I don't get into trouble.

What are the rest of your thoughts on the NGC grading from this video..they really flip those coins around.
 
After watching that NGC video there is no doubt in my mind this whole grading and plastic stabbing of coins is a rip off! How the heck can someone grade a coin that fast and not even wearing gloves just takes the piss! There is more and more stories emerging of coins in these slabs that are damaged,spotted etc from these grading companies, people are now collectors of plastic and numbers on a coloured piece of paper , 67,68,69, 70, its all for profit and the whole collectors hobby has gone out the window, too much focus on what NGC,PCGS grade a coin has, its all mostly bullion anyhows and they are all brand new coins! Madness!!!
 
Silver Bullion Boy said:
After watching that NGC video there is no doubt in my mind this whole grading and plastic stabbing of coins is a rip off! How the heck can someone grade a coin that fast and not even wearing gloves just takes the piss! There is more and more stories emerging of coins in these slabs that are damaged,spotted etc from these grading companies, people are now collectors of plastic and numbers on a coloured piece of paper , 67,68,69, 70, its all for profit and the whole collectors hobby has gone out the window, too much focus on what NGC,PCGS grade a coin has, its all mostly bullion anyhows and they are all brand new coins! Madness!!!
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I'm told that a glove-wearing grader drops more coins than does a bare handed one. The minute impairment a grader might cause when he/she holds a coin by its edge is a lot less serious than the scratch or scuff a coin picks up when it falls. Both PCGS' and NGC's graders don't wear gloves (I've been in both company's grading rooms) and it's not because they are stupid or disrespectful of their customers.

Collectors have a choice of whether to buy graded or ungraded coins. But here's a story that explains why so many buyers choose to buy graded ones. A few decades ago, before TPGs (Third Party Graders), someone might buy a MS-65 coin for $1,000 and after a few years see that MS-65s had gone up to $3,000. When the original buyer tried to sell that ungraded coin he would be told, "Oh, see this mark here and that toning there? This is only a MS-63. It's worth $700."

it was very difficult for most collectors to buy a coin at one grade and then sell it back later at the same grade. People in-the-know used to refer to this as "buying grades" and "selling grades". Generally, the collector got fleeced in the process. The TPGs pretty much ended this racket. Sure, some people pay too much attention to the label instead of the coin, but imo a slabbed, graded coin is a heckuva good tradeoff for most collectors compared to the way things worked in the old days.

Incidentally, here's a photo of a 30 year old Chinese silver coin in it's original pouch. Beautiful isn't it? Personally I like OMPs for studying and slabs for long term preservation of condition and value. As far as red spots and white spots, they will appear on both graded and ungraded coins if there is some kind of residue on the coin that reacts chemically with its surroundings. That's just my view. YMMV, just have some fun, too.

1986-sunyat-sen.jpg

Source: China Pricepedia

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
www.pandacollector.com
 
Espen_83 said:
Buy the coin, not the holder.
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I just have to say something when I read similar comment.

When you are buying online, you either based your buying decision on the photos, or the number on the plastic holder. The number on the plastic holder should work better for most of the beginning/intermediate collectors who is still learning how to coin grading.

"Buy the coin, not the holder" is as good as saying "don't buy the coin."
 
hobwell said:
Silly newbie type question here. I was actually quite horrified watching how the NGC grade the coins. Video below

http://www.ngccoin.com/coingrading/ngc-coin-certification-overview.aspx#video

Just wondering why they do not wear gloves, especially when handling silver coins?
Click to expand...

Here you go...straight from the horses mouth at NGC...I wrote in email expressing my concerns. Makes sense to me.

Bob,



Thank you for the email. NGC graders never wear gloves when handling coins in keeping with widely accepted industry standards. Gloves reduce dexterity and significantly increase the chance that a coin could be dropped and damaged. Of course, a coin should always be held by its edge.




Many libraries and museums around the world discourage curators and researchers from wearing cotton gloves for these very reasons. For example, here is a link to an article published by the British Library that explains why they generally do not use cotton gloves: http://www.bl.uk/aboutus/stratpolprog/collectioncare/videos/whitegloves.pdf




Many NGC graders have decades of experience and grade hundreds of coins every day. At a certain point grading becomes second nature, especially if you have done it professionally for 25 years. The length of time required to grade a coin also depends on the type of coin; some coin types require attribution or a more extensive evaluation.




Graders will often discuss a coin with other grades, so in the example you gave -- where a grader is debating whether a coin is MS 67 or MS 68 -- this would lead to a discussion about the coin's merits. This isn't shown in the video, but it happens regularly in the NGC grading room.




I hope this helps address your questions and concerns.




Regards,

Max
 
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