New entrant to Silver, with questions.

[mattyman174]

ABC can store bullion I think. They have allocated and unallocated so you might want to contact them about it. You can register with them to have an account, by scanning some ID and emailing it to them. Doesn't take long to set up. A phone call or two and you are up and running. You don't even have to buy anything, just sit and get a feel for the ropes until you are more confident. You might want to weigh up whether it is is worth the postage versus those options when you set the account up on the phone. Driving into the CBD and finding a park around there are factors. I think fees were very heavy in the nearest multistorey carpark.

Depending on where you are in regional NSW and travel costs/inconvenience, Sydney is a safe option for kilo bars from a dealer but a WTB ad here might lead to an exchange with someone in your area or close to it (agree to start with a vendor with a good reputation here, just get them to PM you about your locale). I have previously done a number of times that way when out in the country there. You may negotiate price to a degree if it seems on the high side - it is a market.

Factoring in travel time and all of my travel options and costs of travel for me to get to Sydney, paying $25 shipping fee is the cheaper option in my case. I live 4 hours from Sydney by car. I do not travel to Sydney very often, maybe a few times per year. Given the 8 hour RTT, im more than willing to part with the $25. I will of course be searching around for better shipping deals.

 

[SlyGuy]

Lots of good advice so far. A few other tips...

Don't be so quick to rule out gold. If you are thinking of buying silver by the kilo, you can afford gold. Gold is much more compact, and that means much easier to hide at the house, move, ship, etc. After you get more than about 500 or 1000oz of silver, you will definitely want to switch to mostly gold. You can hide $20k of gold in an empty soup can. The physical silver just gets too cumbersome after significant amounts.

It depends what you decide on, but I am against storage, unallocated, etc... "if you don't hold it, you don't own it" is the main strength of metals in my opinion: you are hedging with something that doesn't rely on banks or other companies that can fail you (and are most likely to fail when you will need your metals in your hands the most). Also, you obviously don't pay fees if you hold it yourself. You want something that you could even potentially leave to another country with swiftly and easily.

...finally, you probably don't want more than about 10% of your total net worth in metals, esp due to being so young and having a family. The metals are a good store of wealth, but you want to keep it balanced and have more growth potential for most of your portfolio. Yes, markets are inflated and somewhat risky, but be careful predicting rain every single day and having an ultra-pessimistic portfolio. There are more positive market days overall than negative days, and you need to get some of that growth. If you want to play defensive in the stock market yet still have some income there, you can always do that for awhile (consumer staples, utilities, etc stocks). If you are sure you plan to stay in the area a long while, I agree with above and wouldn't rule out buying a house as a saving/investment vehicle at some point if a real estate market dip occurs. GL and welcome

 

[SlyGuy]

I am always buying both!
It is just that the silver gets problematic after awhile due to size and weight.

I guess it depends on your goals, but I want a fairly compact form of wealth preservation with no fees, high liquidity, and no counter-party risk. You can only find so many nooks and crannys at your house to conceal rolls and rolls of silver coins. Lol

 

[Ian Gillman]

You are going to have to balance size vs premium. 1kg bars are the way to go for the most ounces for your money but think about trying to sell them when the time comes. The person you sell them to is going to have to have enough money for the price of the whole bar which may turn out to be a lot more than you think. The other issue is that a large chunk of metal will probably have to be assayed first which will cost you money as it is possible to drill out the core of the bar and replace it. On the other hand, smaller 1oz bars/rounds have a higher premium but are less likely to be faked and if they are then they are easier to spot with cheaper techniques than a full melt assay. They also cost less so the buyer can have less money available and you still get to sell some silver to them. 1oz coins have the most premium but they are minted to a much higher standard and a buyer will have more confidence that what you have is genuine just by doing some simple measurements.

So, to sum up, 1kg gets the most metal but may be harder to sell due to its value and may cost more to sell due to buyers wanting a full melt assay. 1oz bars and rounds are in the middle, easier to sell due to costing less but a higher premium means less metal for your money. 1oz coins are on the other end, easier to recognise and sell but higher premiums. I could talk about fractional (less than 1oz) silver but basically they are less likely to have been faked but have even higher premiums.

I have a mixture of all of the above types (except my biggest single item is 10oz) and I try to keep an even percentage of each one. When it comes time to sell I can use the coins to establish trust with a dealer so that I can sell them the rounds and bars with less hassle down the road. I do not have any numismatics at all mainly due to the uncertainty of their value, I am not a good haggler so I need a spot price to help me. As for gold, I have enough silver now to buy gold bits and get my stack up to about 20% in gold. I also have a few percentage points of Platinum and Palladium.

Just remember that you cannot really go wrong as long as you buy from a trustworthy source for close to spot. Have fun with the treasure chest you will be filling

 

[Eureka Moments]

Reading this thread has been interesting. 27yo part-time software engineer in debt stay at home Dad decides they are going to chuck weekly $$ into silver. Chooses richest purchase/delivery option despite starting thread with question about purchase options and how to get good value and receiving advice on going rates/prices.

Mattyman174 is the only 27yo on earth I have ever encountrred who doesn't expect free delivery on anything over 50 bucks and instead chooses most expensive way. Naive as buggery but has the vocab of someone of much greater experience and wordly knowledge.

Been loads of members registered here as Matt, Matthew, Matty and some have numbers as well. Do you mind me asking what your 174 may refer to? My Google assist thingy reckons it out of the bible but that seems a silly idea.

Anyway it's Christmas time, which occurs in the bible and which in modern times has been labelled the silly season, when anything's possible.Even miracles!

Anyway that's my 2 sheckel's worth.

 

[SilverDJ]

Factoring in travel time and all of my travel options and costs of travel for me to get to Sydney, paying $25 shipping fee is the cheaper option in my case.

Even living in Sydney you could pay $25 in tolls and petrol easily depending on where you live, not to mention your time.

 

[SilverDJ]

As for Silver or Gold unless you feel there is a massive economic crash in the next two years I would refrain from purchasing anything more than token physical metal, and look towards allocated or unallocated metal from Perth Mint or such.
https://www.perthmint.com/storage/depository-online.html
https://www.perthmint.com/storage/pricing.html

Note: By all mean buy some physical metal but imagine if you accumulated $20,000 or $50,000 of physical silver how long it will take to convert to cash, its nice to have few bars and coins at home (I do and collect few choice coin series) but at 27 seriously look at unallocated options.

I have to 2nd this.
The Perth Mint is government guaranteed, really low fees, and zero storage costs if you chose allocated.
You can withdraw your money at any time with a click, and you can covert to physical at any time, and also have it shipped to you.
It just gives you more options, and it's good to have options, you never know when you might need the money quickly.

And for those in the "if you don't hold it you don't own it" camp, you have to be realistic. If SHTF, and I mean really hits the fan and the government confiscates your metal in the few days it would take you to get it out, then you have more problems than losing your metal.

 

[Jislizard]

...

And for those in the "if you don't hold it you don't own it" camp, you have to be realistic. If SHTF, and I mean really hits the fan and the government confiscates your metal in the few days it would take you to get it out, then you have more problems than losing your metal.

But if you do have it in your possession then you have one less problem to worry about in this situation. The majority of my junk silver would be found 100 years later as part of a buried hoard! But the gold coins would be in my pocket.

I do see some value to unallocated metals, certainly if you are wanting to trade the Gold to Silver Ratio, bulky metals are expensive to post whereas liquidating low premium gold and buying low premium silver from the same dealer, which I have done on several occasions through GoldStackers, is very easy. Not something that I would like to do again using physical metals, which I have only done once.

 

[Ipv6Ready]

People who miss the warning sign of economic downturn to the extent of government debating legislating confiscation of metals.... Won’t survive SHFT.

Just like people in Cyprus who 10 months in to national economic death spiral, with news of banks going bankrupt everyday and night on tv, internet, radio, newspapers and at any gathering, who still had their life savings in banks disappear, complaining on tv the day after the collapse.

 

[Ag]

Welcome to the forum Matt

Good points raised all round but feel any investment should really take current value into consideration over storage inconvenience,cost for postage or other factors raised

As a new stacker I would look strongly suggest looking at the GSR (Gold Silver Ratio) as its hard to beat currently (85:1). Pure gold bugs can't deny the historically charts when either metal moves

I struggle to ever suggest allocated/unallocated with a third party. Doesn't it seem odd that there is little to no cost for both storage and insurance?
If one of the inconveniences for silver is the bulk room needed, how does a mint/dealler store numerous customers bulky silver bullion at little to no cost? Hmmm...and private storage facilities are still going strong with customer demand...

If buying through a SMSF, then wouldn't mind allocated/unallocated with a government mint (eg Perth Mint) as both are 'backed' by the same entity and therefore would be able to settle out in fiat at a minimum

Generally the best price points per gram is 1oz Gold and 1Kg silver. Would then suggest future purchases into smaller sizes (eg for silver 10oz and 1oz bars/coins) while building up your stack. The reason is it simply gives you more diversification when needing to sell at a later stage

 

[mattyman174]

Reading this thread has been interesting. 27yo part-time software engineer in debt stay at home Dad decides they are going to chuck weekly $$ into silver.

I have no debt at all. I said my Partner has debt. I dont understand what this comment is trying to achieve?

Chooses richest purchase/delivery option despite starting thread with question about purchase options and how to get good value and receiving advice on going rates/prices.

My question was of a price comparison issue between different purity levels and brands that i couldnt reconcile myself. My question was hypothetical for educational purposes. The entire point of this thread was to ask for advice because im naive and lack the knowledge and experience in this field so that i can make the best choices.

Again what point are you trying to make?

Mattyman174 is the only 27yo on earth I have ever encountrred who doesn't expect free delivery on anything over 50 bucks and instead chooses most expensive way.

"the only 27yo on earth I have ever encountered who doesn't expect free delivery on anything over 50 bucks"

I never expect anything of anyone, i prefer not to be disappointed.

My reasons for choosing that method at the time for which i posted that comment was arrived upon by a couple of factors.

• Trust.
  
• Lack of knowledge on the wider market options. (Up to that point no one had mentioned anything better.)

As i stated in later posts, im now searching for better alternatives given the responses other community members have made with their useful advice. Did you even read the thread?

Naive as buggery but has the vocab of someone of much greater experience and wordly knowledge.

Naive: showing a lack of experience, wisdom, or judgement. Yes i agree, thats why im here.... Also thank you for the compliment? I think?

Been loads of members registered here as Matt, Matthew, Matty and some have numbers as well. Do you mind me asking what your 174 may refer to? My Google assist thingy reckons it out of the bible but that seems a silly idea.

When i was young i played an online game called Runescape, it randomly assigned this number to me as a suggestion for a username, ive used it ever since.

Anyway it's Christmas time, which occurs in the bible and which in modern times has been labelled the silly season, when anything's possible.Even miracles!

A thinly veiled assumption of my philosophical leanings? What was this comment meant to achieve?

Anyway that's my 2 sheckel's worth.

You made statements based on false assumptions and provided nothing of value to the thread, not really worth much if you ask me.

My impression of this post was that you sought nothing but to point out flaws and failings for the sake of pointing out flaws and failings (of someone new to the scene asking for assistance from more learned peers).

If this was not your intention then my apologies for the rough response but perhaps presenting your thoughts more clearly and constructively in the future would benefit everyone including yourself.

 

[mattyman174]

As a new stacker I would look strongly suggest looking at the GSR (Gold Silver Ratio) as its hard to beat currently (85:1). Pure gold bugs can't deny the historically charts when either metal moves

I have been looking at this a little and plan to read up more about it.

I struggle to ever suggest allocated/unallocated with a third party. Doesn't it seem odd that there is little to no cost for both storage and insurance?
If one of the inconveniences for silver is the bulk room needed, how does a mint/dealler store numerous customers bulky silver bullion at little to no cost? Hmmm...and private storage facilities are still going strong with customer demand...

If buying through a SMSF, then wouldn't mind allocated/unallocated with a government mint (eg Perth Mint) as both are 'backed' by the same entity and therefore would be able to settle out in fiat at a minimum

Yes my thoughts on that are more to the same point, if your using Silver or any PM as a hedge, it makes little sense to me that you would trust it in an form of IOU with the same institutions bound by the fiat for which your trying to protect yourself from.

Generally the best price points per gram is 1oz Gold and 1Kg silver. Would then suggest future purchases into smaller sizes (eg for silver 10oz and 1oz bars/coins) while building up your stack. The reason is it simply gives you more diversification when needing to sell at a later stage

Diversifying definitely seems like a smart choice no doubt. Thank you for your help!

 

[mattyman174]

You are going to have to balance size vs premium. 1kg bars are the way to go for the most ounces for your money but think about trying to sell them when the time comes. The person you sell them to is going to have to have enough money for the price of the whole bar which may turn out to be a lot more than you think. The other issue is that a large chunk of metal will probably have to be assayed first which will cost you money as it is possible to drill out the core of the bar and replace it. On the other hand, smaller 1oz bars/rounds have a higher premium but are less likely to be faked and if they are then they are easier to spot with cheaper techniques than a full melt assay. They also cost less so the buyer can have less money available and you still get to sell some silver to them. 1oz coins have the most premium but they are minted to a much higher standard and a buyer will have more confidence that what you have is genuine just by doing some simple measurements.

So, to sum up, 1kg gets the most metal but may be harder to sell due to its value and may cost more to sell due to buyers wanting a full melt assay. 1oz bars and rounds are in the middle, easier to sell due to costing less but a higher premium means less metal for your money. 1oz coins are on the other end, easier to recognise and sell but higher premiums. I could talk about fractional (less than 1oz) silver but basically they are less likely to have been faked but have even higher premiums.

I have a mixture of all of the above types (except my biggest single item is 10oz) and I try to keep an even percentage of each one. When it comes time to sell I can use the coins to establish trust with a dealer so that I can sell them the rounds and bars with less hassle down the road. I do not have any numismatics at all mainly due to the uncertainty of their value, I am not a good haggler so I need a spot price to help me. As for gold, I have enough silver now to buy gold bits and get my stack up to about 20% in gold. I also have a few percentage points of Platinum and Palladium.

Just remember that you cannot really go wrong as long as you buy from a trustworthy source for close to spot. Have fun with the treasure chest you will be filling

Thank you for your insight. Sell ability is certainly something that needs to be accounted for. Once i start i plan to hold onto whatever i get for a very long time. Who can say what the landscape will look like in 20, 30 or beyond years.

 

[tongkat]

When you do go to Sydney once or twice a year. Hit up a few coin shops and the PM dealers. Look at and touch as much stuff as they will let you. Nothing beats that kind of familiarity when and if you start buying from the secondary market.

 

[Jislizard]

People who miss the warning sign of economic downturn to the extent of government debating legislating confiscation of metals.... Won’t survive SHFT....

Many economists and governments missed or ignored the warning signs of the Global Financial Meltdown in 2008, it is easily done and if people in the business miss it, then it is hard for anyone else.

Nothing to debate regarding legislating confiscation of metals, sadly the legislation is already on the books, it just needs to be acted upon. Only wrought precious metals are exempt. All those Perth Mint $1 face value .999 1oz "coins" could be confiscated, but the Gov is sure to give you the full face value into your bank account.

Many people will do badly in SHTF, many will prosper.

...Just like people in Cyprus who 10 months in to national economic death spiral, with news of banks going bankrupt everyday and night on tv, internet, radio, newspapers and at any gathering, who still had their life savings in banks disappear, complaining on tv the day after the collapse.

If I remember correctly the banks shut normally at the weekend and then didn't reopen for a week or two and by that time it was too late. Plus I am sure their gov was assuring them that everything was going to be ok and everything was being taken care of. Anyway, it was only a 10% 'haircut' and also anyway, it was apparently only Russian Gangsters who were keeping their money in Cypriot banks to avoid taxes, so no real people were hurt.

The problem with the warning signs is that the people spruiking precious metals have been singing the same doom and gloom song since the early 60s, "debt is out of control", "the American Dollar is going to collapse", "China is going to cash in all its US debt and crash the economy", "the USA is trillions of dollars in debt and have stopped reporting it", "California has hit its debt ceiling and the Government may have to shut down" etc. etc. etc.

Not only do you have to be looking out for the warning signs but you also have to filter out all the white noise.

I tend to think people on this site are over reading warning signs and seeing them all over the place, I spent a good two years watching the spot price hourly and waiting for the big collapse before I calmed down a bit.

 

[SilverDJ]

Many economists and governments missed or ignored the warning signs of the Global Financial Meltdown in 2008, it is easily done and if people in the business miss it, then it is hard for anyone else.
Nothing to debate regarding legislating confiscation of metals, sadly the legislation is already on the books, it just needs to be acted upon. Only wrought precious metals are exempt. All those Perth Mint $1 face value .999 1oz "coins" could be confiscated, but the Gov is sure to give you the full face value into your bank account.

This is one of the reasons why unallocated or allocated bars can be a good idea. If the government is going to confiscate your metal (only happened once in Oz history IIRC), they have to pay you the metal content value.
Not that they would take it anyway because the total amount of metal held by individuals is a drop in the bucket compared to other assets the government can seise if it had too, it just doesn't gain them much. They'll take your super or raise taxes before they'll take your metal. It's so far down the rung of importance it's practically a non-issue.

 

[SilverDJ]

For the OP, the best thing you can do is look at the historical price of metal, let's say 30 years:
Note the very long flat periods.
And the reason that gold has outperformed silver is because everyone was shocked by the GFC in 2008, and many (including(mostly?) countries) have been buying gold because it's THE reserve.
Silver is just a poor cousin, almost just a regular commodity, no one really cares about it.
When the markets or economies go wonky, the only thing anyone talks about is what is gold doing.
Those who think the GSR will correct and gold will plummet are likely on a losing bet.
Note that the GSR can go down without gold going down in value.
If I had to pick one to shove in the ground for 30 years and give to my kids, it'll be gold, no doubt. Silver is vastly more uncertain, but of course that's not to say the GSR won't go back down and you could see some good, even great gains in silver. I think anything under AU$20 silver is a decent long term bet. You should have both.

 

[mattyman174]

If I had to pick one to shove in the ground for 30 years and give to my kids, it'll be gold, no doubt. Silver is vastly more uncertain, but of course that's not to say the GSR won't go back down and you could see some good, even great gains in silver. I think anything under AU$20 silver is a decent long term bet. You should have both.

Ive certainly been looking at all the data across both Gold and Silver, its quite useful to have around for sure and i no doubt will be diversifying into Gold once im comfortable. Im aiming to hold onto my PMs for a very long time, as i stated earlier im not doing this as a get rich quick scheme, this is to help my families future 30+ years down the road.

If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.

Thanks again.

 

[SilverDJ]

Ive certainly been looking at all the data across both Gold and Silver, its quite useful to have around for sure and i no doubt will be diversifying into Gold once im comfortable. Im aiming to hold onto my PMs for a very long time, as i stated earlier im not doing this as a get rich quick scheme, this is to help my families future 30+ years down the road.
If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.

Indeed. And a 30 year plan is a great thing to be doing. I just hope it's not all metals.
The thing with 30 year plans when it comes to money is, the winner will be always be the one that makes use of compounded returns.
Remember that metals do not pay a dividend and your return will not be compounded.
So come 30 years time when you want to cash out, it might be worth a lot or it might have just crawled along with inflation. (very unlikely to have dropped after 30 years). But what is practically guaranteed is that it would have performed worse (much worse) than equities that pay dividends and have been compounding for 30 years.
There is no way metals will be worth more than something that pays compounded interest over these long time periods.
I bet if you take any 30 year period of metals at their best, it will never come close to the stock market over the same period.
This is why even the top metal spruikers recommend only 10-20% of your investment income tops in metals.

 

[sgbuyer]

There is no way metals will be worth more than something that pays compounded interest over these long time periods.
I bet if you take any 30 year period of metals at their best, it will never come close to the stock market over the same period.
This is why even the top metal spruikers recommend only 10-20% of your investment income tops in metals.

At the moment, equities are out for novices. Even prominent hedge funds managers like Ackman and Einhorn have lost significantly in the last 2 years.