Never mind" silver to the moon" through the floor more like
- Thread starter the optimist
- Start date
I hope it falls a lot further , then its the bravery of the individual to call the bottom, check out history charts longer than 5 years and youll see its still way too high
in the light of day how can a 1 oz gold bar be 780 I think silver 1 oz bars should be about 8 plus our dreaded vat that's my take on it
in the light of day how can a 1 oz gold bar be 780 I think silver 1 oz bars should be about 8 plus our dreaded vat that's my take on it
Didn't think you'd be able to answer many of my questions.Pirocco said:Your reply ceased to be a reply at your 'so'.wrcmad said:Oh, so you want controlled price?
But only if it is in your favour?
Otherwise you call it theft?
:lol:
I'm am not jesting stupidity... but I am sensing it.
Any idea of the true value of silver? :|
Pirocco
Well-Known Member
Any idea of the true value of your 2 last posts?wrcmad said:Didn't think you'd be able to answer many of my questions.Pirocco said:Your reply ceased to be a reply at your 'so'.wrcmad said:Oh, so you want controlled price?
But only if it is in your favour?
Otherwise you call it theft?
:lol:
I'm am not jesting stupidity... but I am sensing it.
Any idea of the true value of silver? :|
Didn't think so.Pirocco said:Any idea of the true value of your 2 last posts?wrcmad said:Didn't think you'd be able to answer many of my questions.Pirocco said:
Any idea of the true value of silver? :|
Talk a lot.
Lecture a lot.
Blame a lot.
Lose a lot.
Answer nothing.
mmissinglink
Active Member
Come on boys...it's Saturday...time for peace between Stackers. 
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mmissinglink
Active Member
@ wrcmad,
To answer your question, the true value of silver is what people are willing to pay for it. Some people (I'm not saying you) mistakenly believe that the true value is the mining cost....but this is not the true value at all for a number of reasons. Some argue that the true value is based on what it's value was during Roman times or during the period prior to 1971. This is also a mistaken belief. There may be different ways of valuing silver but ultimately the only true value is simply what people are willing to pay. And yes, this means that the true value of silver is subjective whether some people are capable of accepting this truth or are fearful of this truth or not.
In the actual real world, there is no such thing as an intrinsic value of silver just like there's no such thing as Santa Clause. All values placed on silver are extrinsic and subjective.
Understanding this has been helpful to me because I no longer hold one tiny group of 'expert' opinion as the one to use to determine whether or not I should buy silver at this moment. I consider all intelligent and sensible opinions whether they are exalting the virtues of "fundamentals", "manipulation", or the "Elliott Wave theory" and make determinations based on what makes the most sense for my needs and the reasons for my stacking / collecting.
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To answer your question, the true value of silver is what people are willing to pay for it. Some people (I'm not saying you) mistakenly believe that the true value is the mining cost....but this is not the true value at all for a number of reasons. Some argue that the true value is based on what it's value was during Roman times or during the period prior to 1971. This is also a mistaken belief. There may be different ways of valuing silver but ultimately the only true value is simply what people are willing to pay. And yes, this means that the true value of silver is subjective whether some people are capable of accepting this truth or are fearful of this truth or not.
In the actual real world, there is no such thing as an intrinsic value of silver just like there's no such thing as Santa Clause. All values placed on silver are extrinsic and subjective.
Understanding this has been helpful to me because I no longer hold one tiny group of 'expert' opinion as the one to use to determine whether or not I should buy silver at this moment. I consider all intelligent and sensible opinions whether they are exalting the virtues of "fundamentals", "manipulation", or the "Elliott Wave theory" and make determinations based on what makes the most sense for my needs and the reasons for my stacking / collecting.
.
Pirocco
Well-Known Member
Repeat: I would define 'true value' or 'true price' (from a certain perspective, there is a difference between value and price, but that makes no difference here) as the price that represents the least money for nothing level. Both sides having what they wanted, no regrets afterwards (bad product quality, too high price, etc). Anything else means a degree of misleading (ex 'Top Quality Diamond' that is brass), with as motive theft. This should be obvious, no? If misleading is required to make one willing to pay a price, rather obviously ending in regret about the price, then that price certainly wasn't 'true'.
And of course a price is subjective, but there is a difference between the element of own preferences and the element of being misleaded, don't you think?
The Eliott Wave Theory is basically nothing but a unification of different degrees of misleading over different time periods. For ex tax is a short term theft, and inflation a long term theft. That's how I see it. What is named 'fundamental analysis', is an expensive word combination for something very simple: collecting market / product data of the past, as to draw its future. While in itself, it's a simple task, it's alot work, and data can be missing. Technical Analysis can be seen as a shorter term supplemental, but it stays what it is: observing peoples behaviour instead of peoples product and production, and that's the same that thieves do. Of course, it can be used against the thieves too, but usually these go one step further there: they lure people into predictable behaviour, then frontrun the same that thought to frontrun themselves. And why do they succeed in this further step and you not: because they have way more market data way faster. In short: they perform 'Fundamental Analysis'. Take for ex. that COT report. Weekly release for the freebies. Be sure that some don't have to wait a week. You know you found such 'border' when your click doesnt lead to the data, but to a membership/payment page. The amount data and the speed at which you receive it, is a function of what you wanna pay for it. Who has the deepest pockets? Right. Who has infinite deep pockets? Right. Good luck trying to compete with that. At best, you only screw someone that tried the same as you.
And of course a price is subjective, but there is a difference between the element of own preferences and the element of being misleaded, don't you think?
The Eliott Wave Theory is basically nothing but a unification of different degrees of misleading over different time periods. For ex tax is a short term theft, and inflation a long term theft. That's how I see it. What is named 'fundamental analysis', is an expensive word combination for something very simple: collecting market / product data of the past, as to draw its future. While in itself, it's a simple task, it's alot work, and data can be missing. Technical Analysis can be seen as a shorter term supplemental, but it stays what it is: observing peoples behaviour instead of peoples product and production, and that's the same that thieves do. Of course, it can be used against the thieves too, but usually these go one step further there: they lure people into predictable behaviour, then frontrun the same that thought to frontrun themselves. And why do they succeed in this further step and you not: because they have way more market data way faster. In short: they perform 'Fundamental Analysis'. Take for ex. that COT report. Weekly release for the freebies. Be sure that some don't have to wait a week. You know you found such 'border' when your click doesnt lead to the data, but to a membership/payment page.
The amount data and the speed at which you receive it, is a function of what you wanna pay for it. Who has the deepest pockets? Right. Who has infinite deep pockets? Right. Good luck trying to compete with that. At best, you only screw someone that tried the same as you.
Pirocco
Well-Known Member
Another wave-causing element is technological limits of a given period. If the money for nothing club steals, and gets away unpunished, then people have to produce more in order to buy the same. At some point, they can reach the limits of that time, and that's such a wave end/begin.
I agree with most of what you say, especially a lack of intrinsic value to silver, or saying the value of silver is pegged to historical levels.mmissinglink said:
But your reference is actually to the true market value of silver.
You may say, 'Well, what other value does silver have, except market value.'
As Pirocco says (as I understand it), if my snake oil has a market value of $1, until I tell you it cures cancer, baldness, shortness, warts, and more, so I want $10 for it, I am attempting to increase market value. If I am successful, it will sell quite well at $10, and that will be the new market value.
We should be able to say the value of my snake oil has not increased ten fold, even if the market value has.
Its value as a curative elixir has remained the same.
More importantly, its value to the purchaser, who wants a curative elixir, has remained the same - excluding resale potential.
Its value by most reasonable standards remains flat, while market value has increased ten fold.
All due to hype, hoodwinking, charlatanism, thievery.
Silver does have value separate from market value.
This value is of course subjective, as 'value' itself is a subjective term.
Pirocco
Well-Known Member
2 questions
How 'correct' is a new market value if those that pay it regret it?
How 'correct' is a market value, that changes up and down like a yoyo?
As said earlier: value is based on peoples preferences (of which time is 1 example). THAT is the reason for subjectivity, having been misleaded and consequentially act wrong, has nothing to do with subjectivity of value. To give an example from your own viewpoint: a first ice cream on a hot day has a high value, a second ice cream a lower. The subjectivity / difference is based on satisfaction. Now imagine some1 quickly bought up all the ice creams, just to inflict you a higher price for any or all the ice creams you may want. The higher value you grant to the first ice cream, ceased having anything to do with your higher satisfaction. Your side of the story didnt change. An externality, a third entity, inflicted you it. Real speculation is different: it foresees the hot day, and buys earlier cheap on cold days. Real speculators drive the price up on cold days, and down on hot days. Summarized: real speculators help to allocate production better to needs, and make price trends more stable.
Now, the hot and cold days represent the things that are beyond peoples control.
The things we have to overcome to live our life. That frontrunning and manipulation is just people trying to make you pay an ice cream without having to give one. Translated to the silver market and stacking, that is less ounces, due to a price driven up by speeding along you on the way to the ice cream seller.
How 'correct' is a new market value if those that pay it regret it?
How 'correct' is a market value, that changes up and down like a yoyo?
As said earlier: value is based on peoples preferences (of which time is 1 example). THAT is the reason for subjectivity, having been misleaded and consequentially act wrong, has nothing to do with subjectivity of value. To give an example from your own viewpoint: a first ice cream on a hot day has a high value, a second ice cream a lower. The subjectivity / difference is based on satisfaction. Now imagine some1 quickly bought up all the ice creams, just to inflict you a higher price for any or all the ice creams you may want. The higher value you grant to the first ice cream, ceased having anything to do with your higher satisfaction. Your side of the story didnt change. An externality, a third entity, inflicted you it. Real speculation is different: it foresees the hot day, and buys earlier cheap on cold days. Real speculators drive the price up on cold days, and down on hot days. Summarized: real speculators help to allocate production better to needs, and make price trends more stable.
Now, the hot and cold days represent the things that are beyond peoples control.
The things we have to overcome to live our life. That frontrunning and manipulation is just people trying to make you pay an ice cream without having to give one. Translated to the silver market and stacking, that is less ounces, due to a price driven up by speeding along you on the way to the ice cream seller.
Market value is simply that - what the market says an item will cost.Pirocco said:
It is not 'correct' or incorrect.
Buyers remorse is common, and has nothing to do with any value, except what the regretting buyer says.
'I thought I wanted blue, now I do not, I am having regrets, I want my money back.'
I would say the value should not yoyo, value should be something relatively stable.
This however does not describe market value.
Thus my distinction between 'market value', and 'item value'.
Learning that the spot price of silver yoyo-ed like the stock market was a surprise to me.
Silver has been around for ages, I'd think folks would know 'what it is worth' by now.
But of course when some people 'buy silver', they get a piece of paper.
Common sense says something like silver should have a relatively stable price, but it does not.
All of this due to market forces, natural and unnatural (but not supernatural).
The idea of 'correct market value', does not compute.
Pirocco said:
IMHO - perfectly correct.
People like to site data such as the amount of oz's stockpiled, oz's mined, production forcasts, oz's warehoused etc to try and discredit sharp movements in the market, and rationalise more stable prices.
However, most of the oz's that exist sit on the market sidelines at any one time. Whether holders of silver are not selling, or potential buyers are not buying, this puts an enormous percentage of the population, and silver, into the non-participant category of the market at any one time.
Thus, the price setting market is made up of, and moved by, the supply/demand dynamics of a proportionally small number of participants.
This is not incorrect.... this is how every market works (except maybe BTC
).No. Markets don't work like this. Never have, never will. It is a fantasy, or it is controlled pricing (manipulation the other way).Pirocco said:
I noticed that nobody is able to put a defined price on silver, even though they blame others for buying at an inflated price and call them thieves. If price is incorrect, then where should it be?
Pirocco
Well-Known Member
Again: a market says nothing. It's a situation. A situation doesn't speak, doesn't dance and doesn't watch the Simpsons. People do that. And if they regret, that means that they discovered that they paid too much. The next question then is, why did they pay too much, ONE next answer is: because they were misleaded. What share does this answer have in the whole of possible answers? Is it generalizing? Well, if I look at all the bogus stories I came across, on forum and dealersites, the answer is pretty clear.BeHereNow said:
People didn't want your color blue. They wanted an amount product whose value equals the one they produced to earn it. And they didn't get it, because some money for nothing club frontrunned, and misled them. They obviously didn't say what they thought themselves, as proved by themselves doing the opposite of what they suggested others to do.
A 'correct' price is simply the stable one. Anything else is an unagreed property shift, in short: theft.
Pirocco
Well-Known Member
In a free market situation, nobody dictates a price, a price is a total net result of all that trade. Notice the word 'trade'. Something for something. Theft is not trading, for the obvious reason.wrcmad said:Pirocco said:
IMHO - perfectly correct.
People like to site data such as the amount of oz's stockpiled, oz's mined, production forcasts, oz's warehoused etc to try and discredit sharp movements in the market, and rationalise more stable prices.
However, most of the oz's that exist sit on the market sidelines at any one time. Whether holders of silver are not selling, or potential buyers are not buying, this puts an enormous percentage of the population, and silver, into the non-participant category of the market at any one time.
Thus, the price setting market is made up of, and moved by, the supply/demand dynamics of a proportionally small number of participants.
This is not incorrect.... this is how every market works (except maybe BTC
No. Markets don't work like this. Never have, never will. It is a fantasy, or it is controlled pricing (manipulation the other way).Pirocco said:
I noticed that nobody is able to put a defined price on silver, even though they blame others for buying at an inflated price and call them thieves. If price is incorrect, then where should it be?
Yet, there is some denial out there, notably from the get something for nothing - corner.
Far out! Your really reckon you got it all figured out don't you?
Such a pain to read the same stuff over and over again with your money for nothing club fantasy bull...
Seriously, give it a break sometimes - you sound sour more than anything. And if you've figured it, just take advantage of your greater understanding, please!
Such a pain to read the same stuff over and over again with your money for nothing club fantasy bull...
Seriously, give it a break sometimes - you sound sour more than anything. And if you've figured it, just take advantage of your greater understanding, please!