MS70 vs MS69

comeaux said:
heyimderrick said:
What is your experience with ANACS?
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I have no experience with ANACS as about 99% of panda/Chinese Modern Coin collectors if you like ANACS then go for it or better yet why not post some your ANACS collection pictures?

In my case I know that at some point in the distant future I will sell my collection and when I do I will get an excellent return with very nice coins holdered by a company well respected in grading CHINESE COINS.

I have posted several examples of recent auction prices of NGC GRADED MODERN CHINESE COINS on this forum look at those prices for yourself. I could post hundreds of these examples but I have better things to do than post auction prices daily. Since I have posted some NGC examples, why don't you substantiate your position on ANACS with just a few recent auction prices of Chinese pandas in ANACS holders seems that should be fairly easy for you.



heyimderrick said:
Whether it's an ASE or a Panda, if the graders are applying the same standards to all of the coins they grade, what difference does time make?
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You may be correct on standards but perception is reality. NGC is perceived as being much more experienced/advanced in the recognition of the tremendous varieties in Chinese coins, I have illustrated/substantiated this in previous threads. There is no need for me to repeat myself again.


heyimderrick said:
What mistake was this? Can you enlighten us?
Click to expand...
I would be happy to ... :D

Yes there have been a few mistakes but one glaring mistake I made that really sticks out in my mind is the exorbitant prices I paid for two ICG MS70 graded pandas in my collecting infancy.

After purchasing these two very pricy additions to my budding collection, I was given some advice by a more experienced panda collector to ditch these two coins as they would not be viewed with much praise within the panda collecting community. I took his advice but soon found that I could not sell them for anywhere near what I purchased them for. I was offered prices for them that were in the range of what an NGC MS68 was selling for :)

Oh well lesson learned for me. I sent them to NGC and they crossed over as a 69 fortunately. In fact NGC does not even cross over ICG so I gave them permission to bust them out of the holder and regrade them. Like I said I was fortunate enough to at least get 69's.

Ok so now that I have given you some examples & posted SEVERAL RECENT AUCTION PRICES of NGC holdered Chinese coins, why don't you give me some examples of Chinese Pandas that were graded by ANACS and recent auction prices of Chinese pandas in ANACS holders ?

Also can you point me in the direction of ANY large/major panda collectors/sellers that are using ANACS?

You can do what you want as anyone else can, I really do not care as it is your coins not mine.

I have 1000's of dollars invested in Chinese pandas and I'm not going to be the "guinea pig" to see if in the future people MIGHT buy Chinese pandas graded by ANACS I KNOW they will purchase them graded by NGC :)

Of course NGC comments are my OPINION but I have substantiated many of my assertions with factual evidence in many other threads

Let me finish by saying AGAIN each individual must make their own decision. Do not rely on what I say, do the research, talk to PANDA COLLECTORS & review auction prices you will then see why I have the sentiments I posted it's not hard to understand then. :D
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First off, let me point out that I am not trying to argue or debate with you.

Secondly, I don't have a "position" on ANACS, or any of the third-party graders. And I don't think anything I have said would have made you think otherwise. I simply wanted to understand how/why you would take a negative stance against a company that you have no experience with.

Thirdly, at this point, I am simply trying to learn which service may be the best option if/when I decide to send something out for grading. From the numerous reviews that I have read, ANACS has more often been noted as more consistent in grading, and grading more accurately compared to PCGS and NGC. Although with anything "subjective" there are people who argue for and favor the other services as well. To me quality of the coin is more important than the name on the holder, but I suppose you may be right in saying that overall perception drives sales better. The only reason that I joined in the discussions on grading was because, like other forum members, I wanted to learn more, not to try and sway anybody in one direction or the other. I thought the reviews I posted were pretty neutral, which is why I found them helpful.

Moving on, I didn't ask you for auction price performance. Auctions are incredibly volatile because of them being dependent on buyer availability at the time of close. Example...this week I bought a PCGS MS69 2010 1 oz. Silver Panda for $64 that had 8 bidders ... today I purchased 3 NGC MS69 2010 1 oz. Silver Pandas for $51 each that had 2 bidders.

I also didn't ask you to be a guinea pig. I also didn't inquire into how much you have invested in pandas, because it is totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Regarding your question of me... no, I don't personally know any large panda collectors, so no, I cannot point you in the direction of one using ANACS, PCGS, ICG, SEGS, NGC or any other company for that matter.

Lastly, if/when I buy pandas I will only buy sealed or slabbed ones because I am not versed in them enough to determine over the internet the differences between real and fake. Once I have slabbed pandas from each grading company, I will be happy to post up some images, and at that point I will also review the quality of the coins and holders and make up my own mind of which is most satisfying.

My apologies for getting you so worked up. There's really no need to get defensive over your NGC preference.
 
Not worked up my American friend :D just trying to convey as eloquently as possible that your "leaning to ANACS" as you stated would more than likely not be good for you that's all.

You asked me some questions and I answered please do not feel offended if the answers were not what you wanted to hear.

ANACS Graded pandas = crap would have been much shorter and more concise but I attempted to expend some resources and give you some information is all. :)

I appologize if I upset you with my answers but I just reread my post and thought it was extremly amiable ... ???
 
Last and important thing i read here and learned from comeaux is the ncs conserved and ngc grading in two steps with only 1 shipping.
 
Thor122 said:
Last and important thing i read here and learned from comeaux is the ncs conserved and ngc grading in two steps with only 1 shipping.
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This is a very good point thor122 that fishball alluded to earlier as well. NCS is WELL WORTH the extra few dollars ...

We all know that toning occasionally appears on our prized collection and is actually viewed without much regard on older coins.

When it comes to Modern Chinese Coins, toning is not well received and many collectors will not collect modern coins with toning. This is one of those issues that is a matter of opinion and everyone has their own thoughts about it but I do not like toning on modern coins.

I can say that there are some of my coins that NCS did a phenomenal job on. I mentioned it in another thread but I had purchased four 2008 Chinese pandas for $58 each and was really happy with the great deal. Upon receiving them I realized why I got such a great deal as they all four had some degree of toning from light to severe.

I sent all four of these 2008 pandas to NCS for conservation then grading and I was completely amazed that they all four came back looking absolutely stunning at NGC MS69 !!!

There have been a few more instances such as this one but this one stands out to me because of the severity of toning and the finished product which now has a lifetime guarantee It's kind of hard to beat that.

Another issue is the phenomenal guarantee that NGC provides. On a few occasions I have sent my NGC graded coins in for an "appearance review" to have my coin sent to NCS for conservation or there has been one occasion with an MS70 that they refunded the value of the coin to me.

I think the superior NGC guarantee is another reason people are putting their several-hundred-thousand-dollar coins in NGC holders, I know if I holdered a coin from $1,000 to $1,000's, I want a guarantee with it ! :D

comeaux
 
Thanks for the data. I dont know the ncs process remove the toning. I have a few 1999 and less with toning. I try when i travel to usa
 
There are 2 gridiron officials:

#1: Has been an official for various sports for 20 years and is well known in the sports industry.

#2: Has been an official for various sports for 20 years and chosen for the Superbowl for the last 5 years straight.

You need an official for your local league and have the option of either for about the same price.
 
Anthony said:
There are 2 gridiron officials:

#1: Has been an official for various sports for 20 years and is well known in the sports industry.

#2: Has been an official for various sports for 20 years and chosen for the Superbowl for the last 5 years straight.

You need an official for your local league and have the option of either for about the same price.
Click to expand...

great analogy !!! :D
 
heyimderrick said:
comeaux said:
heyimderrick said:
What is your experience with ANACS?
Click to expand...

I have no experience with ANACS as about 99% of panda/Chinese Modern Coin collectors if you like ANACS then go for it or better yet why not post some your ANACS collection pictures?

In my case I know that at some point in the distant future I will sell my collection and when I do I will get an excellent return with very nice coins holdered by a company well respected in grading CHINESE COINS.

I have posted several examples of recent auction prices of NGC GRADED MODERN CHINESE COINS on this forum look at those prices for yourself. I could post hundreds of these examples but I have better things to do than post auction prices daily. Since I have posted some NGC examples, why don't you substantiate your position on ANACS with just a few recent auction prices of Chinese pandas in ANACS holders seems that should be fairly easy for you.



heyimderrick said:
Whether it's an ASE or a Panda, if the graders are applying the same standards to all of the coins they grade, what difference does time make?
Click to expand...

You may be correct on standards but perception is reality. NGC is perceived as being much more experienced/advanced in the recognition of the tremendous varieties in Chinese coins, I have illustrated/substantiated this in previous threads. There is no need for me to repeat myself again.


heyimderrick said:
What mistake was this? Can you enlighten us?
Click to expand...
I would be happy to ... :D

Yes there have been a few mistakes but one glaring mistake I made that really sticks out in my mind is the exorbitant prices I paid for two ICG MS70 graded pandas in my collecting infancy.

After purchasing these two very pricy additions to my budding collection, I was given some advice by a more experienced panda collector to ditch these two coins as they would not be viewed with much praise within the panda collecting community. I took his advice but soon found that I could not sell them for anywhere near what I purchased them for. I was offered prices for them that were in the range of what an NGC MS68 was selling for :)

Oh well lesson learned for me. I sent them to NGC and they crossed over as a 69 fortunately. In fact NGC does not even cross over ICG so I gave them permission to bust them out of the holder and regrade them. Like I said I was fortunate enough to at least get 69's.

Ok so now that I have given you some examples & posted SEVERAL RECENT AUCTION PRICES of NGC holdered Chinese coins, why don't you give me some examples of Chinese Pandas that were graded by ANACS and recent auction prices of Chinese pandas in ANACS holders ?

Also can you point me in the direction of ANY large/major panda collectors/sellers that are using ANACS?

You can do what you want as anyone else can, I really do not care as it is your coins not mine.

I have 1000's of dollars invested in Chinese pandas and I'm not going to be the "guinea pig" to see if in the future people MIGHT buy Chinese pandas graded by ANACS I KNOW they will purchase them graded by NGC :)

Of course NGC comments are my OPINION but I have substantiated many of my assertions with factual evidence in many other threads

Let me finish by saying AGAIN each individual must make their own decision. Do not rely on what I say, do the research, talk to PANDA COLLECTORS & review auction prices you will then see why I have the sentiments I posted it's not hard to understand then. :D
Click to expand...

First off, let me point out that I am not trying to argue or debate with you.

Secondly, I don't have a "position" on ANACS, or any of the third-party graders. And I don't think anything I have said would have made you think otherwise. I simply wanted to understand how/why you would take a negative stance against a company that you have no experience with.

Thirdly, at this point, I am simply trying to learn which service may be the best option if/when I decide to send something out for grading. From the numerous reviews that I have read, ANACS has more often been noted as more consistent in grading, and grading more accurately compared to PCGS and NGC. Although with anything "subjective" there are people who argue for and favor the other services as well. To me quality of the coin is more important than the name on the holder, but I suppose you may be right in saying that overall perception drives sales better. The only reason that I joined in the discussions on grading was because, like other forum members, I wanted to learn more, not to try and sway anybody in one direction or the other. I thought the reviews I posted were pretty neutral, which is why I found them helpful.

Moving on, I didn't ask you for auction price performance. Auctions are incredibly volatile because of them being dependent on buyer availability at the time of close. Example...this week I bought a PCGS MS69 2010 1 oz. Silver Panda for $64 that had 8 bidders ... today I purchased 3 NGC MS69 2010 1 oz. Silver Pandas for $51 each that had 2 bidders.

I also didn't ask you to be a guinea pig. I also didn't inquire into how much you have invested in pandas, because it is totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Regarding your question of me... no, I don't personally know any large panda collectors, so no, I cannot point you in the direction of one using ANACS, PCGS, ICG, SEGS, NGC or any other company for that matter.

Lastly, if/when I buy pandas I will only buy sealed or slabbed ones because I am not versed in them enough to determine over the internet the differences between real and fake. Once I have slabbed pandas from each grading company, I will be happy to post up some images, and at that point I will also review the quality of the coins and holders and make up my own mind of which is most satisfying.

My apologies for getting you so worked up. There's really no need to get defensive over your NGC preference.
Click to expand...
If I were asked who YOU should use out of the 3 companies discussed. I would urge YOU to send your raw Pandas to ANACS. This would please me ;)
 
940palmtx said:
If I were asked who YOU should use out of the 3 companies discussed. I would urge YOU to send your raw Pandas to ANACS. This would please me ;)
Click to expand...
Reflects my sentiment :D
 
This thread has definitely taken a turn in the wrong direction.

Like I said earlier, I was trying to learn more about the various grading companies and thought those two reviews were neutral and informational and may have been interesting to other readers on the forum.

I was never trying to advocate using one service over the other. I said I was considering trying ANACS because of what I have read about their history in the industry and what others have posted on other forums and reviews, and I was simply looking for some objective feedback.

@ Comeaux, I appreciate your knowledge on NGC, and I wasn't trying to challenge you on their services. I was simply trying to get at why you have negative feelings about ANACS without ever using them. How I initially interpreted your response was something like saying my Audi is crap because you only drive BMWs. If ANACS or PCGS, et al. is sub-par and you know from experience that they should be avoided because of reasons X, Y, Z, cool. I'm sure we could all appreciate the insight.

I apologize if my "tone" seemed aggressive. I was definitely not trying to start a battle on the topic or stir up bad feelings. We're all part of this forum for the same reasons I think... to learn more, make friends, and to help each other get richer!
 
honestly I meant nothing offensive and was completely amiable ... i just jokingly added the last line.

Thats the problem with texts ... they can be misconstrued at times ... its all good mate :)
 
I was actually surprized when you said I got worked up ???

If you are referring to my "underlining" of certain words it is to illustrate the relevance and distinction of that particular word.

For example if I underline "Modern Chinese Coins" I am basically conveying in that particular line that I am referring to modern Chinese coins and not all coins in general.
This method of writing is fairly common and honestly saw no negative connotations

I said very nicely what I was trying to convey ANACS graded pandas = crap I mean that is pretty much the case.

I did not find I was offensive but again apologize if you took it that way :)
 
940palmtx said:
Here's what I've read regarding the issue, so it's not really my opinion but the opinion of many different experts. let me start by saying I haven't come across an expert reomminding buying MS70s...here what the general consensus seems to be.
Nobody, not coin dealers, not even the graders themselves an tell a difference between a 69 and a 70. In fact, people have sent 69's to be regraded and come back 70 or 68 and 70's have come back 69 or 68. Now, these opinions seem to be given for a collector, not a speculator. Now here where my opinion comes in; It seems logical for a speculator to strongly consider 70s because they do appreciate more. But on the other hand, if you could buy say 4 69s for the price of 1 70, maybe you end up with a higher net appreciation, I dunno, probably depends on the coin. Me personally, I buy 69s, partly because I'm just a collector and even experts can't tell the difference visually and partly because I know there is and will always be a demand for 69s if I ever do decide to sell. If I were a speculator and money was no obstacle I'd buy both 69s and 70s or If I were a collector and money was no obstacle I'd buy 70s. Hope that clears everything up LMAO
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Great post... (for the moment) this sums up perfectly my thoughts on the 69 70 issue.

To be honest I'm still stuck on whether or not to even get mine graded.
 
70's are for wealthy collectors. IMO I would say 70s & 69s are both for investors. The case could be made for either buying a 70 or 3 69s. The appreciation could very well be the same.
Here's why I buy mostly 69's or try to, because I will eventually buy 68s.

If I were buying just to keep forever, no matter what, I'd buy all 68s since the point would be just to look at them and I, nor anyone I'd ever show them to could tell a 68 from a 69 or even a 70. But I buy the 69s because I may need to sell one day and I feel like they would give the best bang for the buck regarding price paid and any appreciation.
If I were buying KNOWING I was going to sell one day AND I had plenty of moolah I would buy 70s and 69s. In fact, I now have adopted a strategy of buying 70s of current year coins. I recently purchased a 9/11 10th Anniversary PF70 because I believe the 20 extra bucks I paid will turn into a 100 gap over a 69 within a few years. In 5-10 years even more.
I'm sure I'll continue to buy 70s, but only the year they come out. I would buy a MS70 dragon, but it's already a little rich for my budget.

In summation; I still concur with many others advice of buying 69s over 70s when purchasing older coins. Older meaning 2-20+ years. I also believe buying raw coins and having them graded is an excellent strategy. Unfortunately I don't have the resources to buy several or many same year raw coins, so for me a 69 is a 'safe' way for me, on my budget, to secure at least one investment grade coin for any specific year.

If money were no consideration I would do everything. I would buy many raw coins and have them graded, I would purchase 69s and 70s in about a 4 or 5 to 1 ratio.

I can see 70s being purchased for a collection and an investment, but I would never recommend an investor buy only 70s, nor a collector buy only 70s unless they were at least semi-wealthy or were only collecting less than 20 coins.

It's all just my opinion, molded from the different opinions of others. I certainly don't hold it out as THE way to buy coins for investment or collections, just my 2 yuans worth. :)
 
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