MS70 vs MS69

While there are obviously grading standards, the truth is that the final decision will be subjective based on the grader on that day. Chances are you can send the same coin to PCGS and NGC and they will come back different grades. Chances are you can send the same coin to the same company multiple times and get different grades.

The same thing happens with comic books and baseball cards, etc. I used to be a biiiig comic book collector and have sent many high-grade, high-value comics to be graded. I've resent books I thought were graded low back and have ended up with better grades. Some of my 9.6 books look better than the 9.8s, and some of my 9.6s look worse than 9.4s.

No matter what, it will always be somewhat subjective and you have to expect a margin of "error" regardless of whether it is coins, comics, cards, etc.

To me, as I think I said above somewhere, the only coins I think that are worth grading are the ones that are very very rare, or the ones that you want to guarantee are authentic.
 
an9ie said:
xiki said:
I wouldn't be surprised at all if the scoring of a grade 69 or 70 is more or less subjective, however, I would be very interested to hear someone say that they could actually tell the difference, be it with a loupe or with camera equipment or something like that. Anyone?
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http://www.pcgs.com/Articles/Detail/5016: "... the PCGS grading standard for MS-70 requires "flawless surfaces under 5x magnification")."
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What would you expect from a grading service website?
Perhaps? "Our graders are human and have good days and bad days, any perfect coin could be given a grade of 69 or 70 on any given day, by any given grader"
 
I still find it interesting what percentage of the coins submitted actually get a ms69 or ms70 grade. I still stick only to NGC to make it easier for myself to compile the data.

grading.png



So why do we get such a high percentage of coins with a perfect or near perfect grade? If you have a scale that let's you use maybe 10 or 12 different grades for uncirculated coins. Maybe the mints just make better coins, or perhaps the people submitting coins, really only submit the best they have. Or maybe, when customers pay $20 per coin to get it graded, they won't be happy to receive a bunch of ms66-67.

I have felt very tempted to get slabbed ms70 coins, or at least ms69, but having done this research for myself, and having read the comments here about the arbitrariness of the grading, I feel less inclined. Still, the grading might mean that you can rest assured that you have bought a genuine panda, but as Peter Anthony has pointed out, some fakes come in fake slabs.
 
Due to the high costs involved in slabbing (not just financial costs, but time as well), I think most people only send good quality coins (or coins likely to get a high grade) for grading.

I know I'm looking forward to the day when I can send my collection for grading, and it is likely to be only the best ones I have :)
 
xiki said:
I still find it interesting what percentage of the coins submitted actually get a ms69 or ms70 grade. I still stick only to NGC to make it easier for myself to compile the data.

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x388/xiki1/grading.png


So why do we get such a high percentage of coins with a perfect or near perfect grade?
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Could this simply be because of an upgrade in Q.C, newer machines and minting technology?


Also, I'd expect any coin graded less than 69 in recent years, would be broken open and sold unslabbed? Anything less than 69 seems like a dud coin at the moment.
 
Most modern coins submitted are uncirculated, usually encapsulated or sealed from the mint, so one would expect them to be near perfect. With advances in die technology and handling protocol, a lot less coins have even miniscule defects.
I haven't yet, but I will in the near future buy some 68s for my collection. I find them to be very reasonably priced and myself nor anyone else could tell the difference with the naked eye, so since I'm a collector, the appearance of perfection is all I'm looking for.
 
Chillidog said:
What's your thoughts on graded bears?
Is it worth the extra cash for MS70?
Which grading company do you prefer?
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So, what are your thoughts on graded bears, Chillidog?
 
Used to wonder why bother. But as stated above if I can get them near BU why not.
I have been buying MS 69 have 20 on their way.
At
Least fakes should be less.
Yes I know panda collector said there were fakes in slabs.
I said less.
 
Hopefully, this will help clear up some of the confusion I've seen in this thread.

There were a few different questions being asked.

To get a raw coin graded costs about $20 per coin. The grade received has no relation to the cost of the process.

Most collectors consider NGC to be a superior grading company compared to PCGS. This is because NGC recognizes more varieties, has better encapsulation, and works with NCS for conservation. As a result, probably 75% (rough guesstimate) of graded Chinese coins are graded by NGC.

Is it worth paying for a MS70 over a MS69? This question is based on the choice between buying *already* graded coins, rather than sending raw coins in for grading. Like Peter said, it depends. You have to look at relative rarity. I wouldn't buy anything less than a 70 for the years 2002 and up. For 2001 and earlier, 69 is generally fine, and a 70 is great if you want the best of the best. 70s will always be rarer than 69s simply because many of the planchets are imperfect at the time of minting so there will be some defect in the finished coin even immediately after minting. In extreme cases for really rare coins, even a 68 would be acceptable.

Hope that helps!
 
tamo42 said:
Hopefully, this will help clear up some of the confusion I've seen in this thread.

There were a few different questions being asked.

To get a raw coin graded costs about $20 per coin. The grade received has no relation to the cost of the process.

Most collectors consider NGC to be a superior grading company compared to PCGS. This is because NGC recognizes more varieties, has better encapsulation, and works with NCS for conservation. As a result, probably 75% (rough guesstimate) of graded Chinese coins are graded by NGC.

Is it worth paying for a MS70 over a MS69? This question is based on the choice between buying *already* graded coins, rather than sending raw coins in for grading. Like Peter said, it depends. You have to look at relative rarity. I wouldn't buy anything less than a 70 for the years 2002 and up. For 2001 and earlier, 69 is generally fine, and a 70 is great if you want the best of the best. 70s will always be rarer than 69s simply because many of the planchets are imperfect at the time of minting so there will be some defect in the finished coin even immediately after minting. In extreme cases for really rare coins, even a 68 would be acceptable.

Hope that helps!
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It does...thanks
 
hi.

my guess is that the only reason coins are slabbed is because the person submitting them is hoping for a 70, and all those 69s and 68s are byproducts.

i prefer unslabbed coins, however, there's certainly an advantage to submitting them for slabbing in case you are gearing up to sell - perhaps if i submit a dozen or two i'd get a 70 back?

i personally don't have an eye for the difference. my impression is that bullion is bullion and the "numismatic" differences might not make such a difference in a SHTF scenario so i wouldn't recommend purchasing slabbed coins, but it does seem like a way to try to cultivate perceived value in the meantime.

a friend purchased an original mint sheet of 30 and we wonder if apmex scans them for and cherry-picks out the 70s, but she doesn't have an eye for these things either.
 
silvstack said:
hi.

my guess is that the only reason coins are slabbed is because the person submitting them is hoping for a 70, and all those 69s and 68s are byproducts.

i prefer unslabbed coins, however, there's certainly an advantage to submitting them for slabbing in case you are gearing up to sell - perhaps if i submit a dozen or two i'd get a 70 back?

i personally don't have an eye for the difference. my impression is that bullion is bullion and the "numismatic" differences might not make such a difference in a SHTF scenario so i wouldn't recommend purchasing slabbed coins, but it does seem like a way to try to cultivate perceived value in the meantime.

a friend purchased an original mint sheet of 30 and we wonder if apmex scans them for and cherry-picks out the 70s, but she doesn't have an eye for these things either.
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Don't worry, nobody has an "eye" for the difference between a 69 and 70. Its general knowledge the 70 grade is subjective and unless you submit 100s of coins per year you can forget about a 70, only the big boys get handed out perfect grades.
Categorize under; Sad But True
 
silvstack said:
i personally don't have an eye for the difference. my impression is that bullion is bullion and the "numismatic" differences might not make such a difference in a SHTF scenario so i wouldn't recommend purchasing slabbed coins, but it does seem like a way to try to cultivate perceived value in the meantime.
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If you are trying to buy a chicken with silver, then no, numismatics are not the way to go. But even in that scenario, after the rebuilding starts (and there will be rebuilding as long as there are people) there will be those who are interested in rarities from a different era.
 
Rekindling an old thread, but I recently came across these two review while researching the different grading companies. I have coins from each that I purchased, but now that I am deciding whether or not to send some of my own collection in I wanted more info on costs, quality, etc.

These two reviews also echo opinions I've heard at the coin shows that I frequent.

Just thought some of you may be interested.

I personally found these reviews of the different third-party grading companies pretty helpful:

http://reviews.ebay.com/PCGS-vs-NGC-vs-ANACS-vs-IGC_W0QQugidZ10000000005898456

http://reviews.ebay.com/How-to-REALLY-buy-coins-on-eBay_W0QQugidZ10000000002485980

Quick reads and some interesting info. I'm actually leaning towards using ANACS in the future. Their grading seems to be the most consistent and accurate, and yet their costs are the lowest (no membership fees and slightly lower cost for the grading as well).
 
Of course as I have stated on many occasions the grading company a person chooses is a matter of choice for each individual. That being said I could not "in good conscious" recommend to any of you members to purchase or grade ANY of your Chinese Pandas/ Modern Chinese Coins if done by ANACS. I would advise against doing so if you ever plan on selling these Modern Chinese Coins at a premium.

I will not go into a big debate as it has already been substantiated with several facts that NGC is the premier grading service when it involves MODERN CHINESE COINS. I would think PCGS is acceptable as they are well regarded and reputable although they have been late in getting on "the boat" with Modern Chinese Coins. This is not only my opinion but it has been said many times by some of the largest modern Chinese Coin collectors in the world and substantiated by recent auction prices I have posted in other threads.

If anyone can even find a Chinese Panda being sold that was graded by ANACS I would be curious to see it and if found, what it is being sold for.

Now if we are talking about Morgan Dollars, old pennies, war nickels then I do not have a clue and you may consider ANACS, PCGS, IGC, etc but do not make the mistake that I made in my panda collecting infancy, It will be costly.

As I have conveyed, it is a matter of personal choice, I hope you would make the logical decision. I know that I would prefer to own modern Chinese Coins that were graded by the company that is most respected and revered in this hobby of collecting Modern Chinese Coins, at least I know that when I go from collecting to selling I will be getting a return on my investment.

Regarding 69 verses 70 of course everyone would like 70's but that is not practical. Again this has been conveyed several times and especially by many of the largest panda collectors at CCF. If your own personal raw coin collection is the source of your 70's then you stand a good chance on making great returns on your investment, if the source of your 70's is that you purchased them already graded you will be waiting for a long time to make a decent return on your investment.

To repeat words of wisdom from one of most respected panda collectors (Larry Dreher) 69's are for investments, 70's are for collectors.

Does that mean that I will be selling the 70's in my collection? Of course not, I'm a collector.

Will I go out and actively seek 70's? Yes I will as a collector but as a long term investor I will predominately be regularly buying 68's, 69's or raw coins to grade myself.

Each person will have different techniques as to how they will build their collection. I think buying raw coins and having them graded yourself has the most upside potential on medium to low rarity coins. On coins that are extremely rare I would recommend purchasing 68's or 69's good luck on building a collection derived of 70's exclusively, while it may be highly commendable for such a valiant effort, I would also say that is fairly illogical as well.

Again it is a matter of choice it would be best to make wise choices by learning from those with experience and those who have made the mistakes they warn you of.

However you choose happy collecting ! :)

comeaux
 
comeaux said:
I could not "in good conscious" recommend to any of you members to purchase or grade ANY of your Chinese Pandas/ Modern Chinese Coins if done by ANACS. I would advise against doing so if you ever plan on selling these Modern Chinese Coins at a premium.
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Leaving your opinion of NGC aside for the moment, why? What is your experience with ANACS?

comeaux said:
... I would think PCGS is acceptable as they are well regarded and reputable although they have been late in getting on "the boat" with Modern Chinese Coins.
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Whether it's an ASE or a Panda, if the graders are applying the same standards to all of the coins they grade, what difference does time make?

comeaux said:
... do not make the mistake that I made in my panda collecting infancy, It will be costly.
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What mistake was this? Can you enlighten us?
 
heyimderrick said:
What is your experience with ANACS?
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I have no experience with ANACS as about 99% of panda/Chinese Modern Coin collectors if you like ANACS then go for it or better yet why not post some your ANACS collection pictures?

In my case I know that at some point in the distant future I will sell my collection and when I do I will get an excellent return with very nice coins holdered by a company well respected in grading CHINESE COINS.

I have posted several examples of recent auction prices of NGC GRADED MODERN CHINESE COINS on this forum look at those prices for yourself. I could post hundreds of these examples but I have better things to do than post auction prices daily. Since I have posted some NGC examples, why don't you substantiate your position on ANACS with just a few recent auction prices of Chinese pandas in ANACS holders seems that should be fairly easy for you.



heyimderrick said:
Whether it's an ASE or a Panda, if the graders are applying the same standards to all of the coins they grade, what difference does time make?
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You may be correct on standards but perception is reality. NGC is perceived as being much more experienced/advanced in the recognition of the tremendous varieties in Chinese coins, I have illustrated/substantiated this in previous threads. There is no need for me to repeat myself again.


heyimderrick said:
What mistake was this? Can you enlighten us?
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I would be happy to ... :D

Yes there have been a few mistakes but one glaring mistake I made that really sticks out in my mind is the exorbitant prices I paid for two ICG MS70 graded pandas in my collecting infancy.

After purchasing these two very pricy additions to my budding collection, I was given some advice by a more experienced panda collector to ditch these two coins as they would not be viewed with much praise within the panda collecting community. I took his advice but soon found that I could not sell them for anywhere near what I purchased them for. I was offered prices for them that were in the range of what an NGC MS68 was selling for :)

Oh well lesson learned for me. I sent them to NGC and they crossed over as a 69 fortunately. In fact NGC does not even cross over ICG so I gave them permission to bust them out of the holder and regrade them. Like I said I was fortunate enough to at least get 69's.

Ok so now that I have given you some examples & posted SEVERAL RECENT AUCTION PRICES of NGC holdered Chinese coins, why don't you give me some examples of Chinese Pandas that were graded by ANACS and recent auction prices of Chinese pandas in ANACS holders ?

Also can you point me in the direction of ANY large/major panda collectors/sellers that are using ANACS?

You can do what you want as anyone else can, I really do not care as it is your coins not mine.

I have 1000's of dollars invested in Chinese pandas and I'm not going to be the "guinea pig" to see if in the future people MIGHT buy Chinese pandas graded by ANACS I KNOW they will purchase them graded by NGC :)

Of course NGC comments are my OPINION but I have substantiated many of my assertions with factual evidence in many other threads

Let me finish by saying AGAIN each individual must make their own decision. Do not rely on what I say, do the research, talk to PANDA COLLECTORS & review auction prices you will then see why I have the sentiments I posted it's not hard to understand then. :D
 
I should have added that the largest dealer of Chinese coins in China sells the majority of coins raw, his graded coins are NGC graded coins. Seems if anyone knows what the demand is that he would have a fairly good idea.

The largest auction price EVER realized of a graded Chinese coin ($1,300,000) was in an NGC holder.

If a million dollar coin is trusted to an NGC holder, surly my $500 coin is in good hands.
 
Just do a search on eBay and you'll see NGC and PCGS have predominantly the largest market share of graded Modern Chinese coins.

ANACS and ICS etc don't have enough experience grading Chinese coins, thus their grades may not be as accurate as NGC/PCGS as they haven't seen as many coins. They also probably lack the expertise to recognize different variations of Chinese coins.

Much like you wouldn't consider a FBGC (FishBall Graded Coins) MS70 to have any extra premium, lots of Modern Chinese coin collectors don't consider ICS, ANACS to have an extra premium either.

It's just how it is, go with NGC/PCGS because that's what everybody else is doing.

NGC has the bonus of NCS though so I'd probably consider them over PCGS if I was sending coins for grading, assuming similar costs.
 
fishball said:
Just do a search on eBay and you'll see NGC and PCGS have predominantly the largest market share of graded Modern Chinese coins.

ANACS and ICS etc don't have enough experience grading Chinese coins, thus their grades may not be as accurate as NGC/PCGS as they haven't seen as many coins. They also probably lack the expertise to recognize different variations of Chinese coins.

Much like you wouldn't consider a FBGC (FishBall Graded Coins) MS70 to have any extra premium, lots of Modern Chinese coin collectors don't consider ICS, ANACS to have an extra premium either.

It's just how it is, go with NGC/PCGS because that's what everybody else is doing.

NGC has the bonus of NCS though so I'd probably consider them over PCGS if I was sending coins for grading, assuming similar costs.
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well said fishball ... unfortunately I am not very good at conveying my statements in such a quick, accurate and condensed method as you are :D
 
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